February 5, 2009
Push Towards Governmental Atheism and Socialism
UPDATE: Maybe I should add something else to make my point clearer. Although this video was made by a man that does not believe in God, we do share the same beliefs about our current government.
Karl Marx, in Manifesto of the Communist Party (1848), posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution and would represent the transitional stage between capitalism and communism.
From the words of Dr. Cornelius Van Til, "Believers themselves have not chosen the Christian position because they are wiser then others. What they have they have by grace alone. But this does not mean that they accept the problematics of fallen man as right...Fallen man does in principle seek to be a law unto himself. But he cannot carry our his own principle to its full degree. He is restrained from doing so...In spite of what he does against God, he can and must work for God; thus he is able to make a "positive contribution" to human culture. (A Christian Theory of Knowledge, 1969 pp. 43-44)
Ah, yes, a propaganda piece. Probably made in the 1950's, maybe the early '60's. Any later, of course, and unions were branded as socialism. Do I really need to point out that christianity, with its call to "make Jesus the lord of your life," also eliminates freedom?
ReplyDeleteAt any rate, very few people are actually trying to remove freedom. Even bad ideas are just that, bad ideas. People promoting what they think are solutions to "fix the current system" are not trying to enslave the population.
I uhh...
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry. This was about communism, not so much about socialism, and it mentions nothing about atheism.
The United States subscribes to socialism, so I don't really get it. Do you want to get rid of welfare, social security, governmental health services, and education?
PV writes: "Do I really need to point out that christianity, with its call to "make Jesus the lord of your life," also eliminates freedom?"
ReplyDeleteI can't think of any figure more anti-capitalistic than Jesus.
Um... are you kidding? The Statue of Liberty looked pissed at the unauthorized use of her visage. And it's a good thing that religion is so democratic and opposed to the sort Stalinist heavy handedness portrayed in that video.
ReplyDeletePS - you have an errant comma on your sidebar after "to answer common questions".
That made me laugh :)
ReplyDeleteBeware of christianism!
There's nothing about atheism in this propaganda piece.
ReplyDeleteTrolling for attention, Dan?
Pvblivs,
ReplyDeletePeople promoting what they think are solutions to "fix the current system" are not trying to enslave the population.
Can you actually say that with a straight face? You cannot be that delusional. You actually believe in a "governmental system?"
Psst, the reason there is a need to "fix the current system" is because there is a Government.
Kaitlyn,
ReplyDeleteThe United States subscribes to socialism, so I don't really get it. Do you want to get rid of welfare, social security, governmental health services, and education?
That would be a great start...after all, when the secular government is in charge of our education they just churn out atheists.
Karl Marx, in Manifesto of the Communist Party (1848), posited that socialism would be achieved via class struggle and a proletarian revolution and would represent the transitional stage between capitalism and communism.
I can't think of any figure more anti-capitalistic than Jesus.
Fair enough, but secular society is currently the ruler of this situation. For this purpose, I am for Anarchism.
Jesus is an entirely different story. System created from God vs system created by man.
Government is not a solution it's a charlatan of what should be and is the true problem, and yes I will concede that false religions pushed people into governments. A trustworthy system that cannot lie, cheat, and steal for the gain of self would work. Following a system from the One that created the universe would be honest enough and trustworthy for it to work. A system that I can sign up to. The current system I cannot, so I am an anarchist.
You just jumped off the deep end...
ReplyDeleteIf ever I wanted to point to an example of a person who cherry-picks evidence in order to support an opinion, to the exclusion of all else, I'd simply provide a URL to this blog entry.
I wish your children the best of luck; being home schooled, it's apparent they're starting off life behind the eight-ball.
That second video is beyond the deep end...
ReplyDeleteWow...
I can't begin to point out the number of problems with that video, but let's start with the beginning. If we all went to religious schools we would all have religious harmony and at worst civil debates? Has this person ever seen the middle east?
Secondly, the claim that if you attend religious school, you will believe in God is ridiculous. I was forced to attend a religious school, and I came out an atheist, so have many others.
We also learned about the U.S. government in private, religious school...
Oh, I give up...
Wem,
ReplyDeleteI wish your children the best of luck; being home schooled, it's apparent they're starting off life behind the eight-ball.
Whatever man.
Dan
ReplyDeleteYou said:
"Can you actually say that with a straight face? You cannot be that delusional. You actually believe in a "governmental system?"
Psst, the reason there is a need to "fix the current system" is because there is a Government."
Then:
"A trustworthy system that cannot lie, cheat, and steal for the gain of self would work. Following a system from the One that created the universe would be honest enough and trustworthy for it to work. A system that I can sign up to. The current system I cannot, so I am an anarchist."
would it be safe for me to say that you would promote a Theocracy with the bible as your founding document and your laws?
Your whole attempt to equate atheism with socialism is unfounded. Dan, I would bet you any amount of money that I am more free market than you. I really hate when people equate atheism with socialism, seeing that economists are by and large atheists. Atheism is the rejection of the existence of gods, that's it.
ReplyDeleteUmmmmm.....
ReplyDeleteYeah.
This post of Dan's has got to be among the most surreal of his efforts to date. Rather than attempt to engage anything he's saying, or any of the things the videos are saying, I'll just quote Towlie, and then Stan Marsh:
I have no idea what's goin' on right now...
...
Don't care, don't care, don't care. I just want my Okama Gamesphere.
--
Stan
Froggie,
ReplyDeleteThe only thing that'd be bad about theocracy would be all the Jesus. Now, if we had Frodo at the helm...
FBWY.
Anarchy has its own problems. In order to have as many as a hundred people interacting peaceably there needs to be some sort of government (although it might be called something else.) At the barest minimum government serves the role of resolving disputes. The church is just another system created by man.
ReplyDeleteDan,
ReplyDelete"...I am for Anarchism."
You ain't got the balls for anarchy. Trust me on that.
Since the Bible is the work of man alone (man made God in his image), then a government that follows the system of "the One that created the universe" will be nothing more than ANOTHER human-imagined political system.
ReplyDeleteNice try, though.
Jim
Froggie,
ReplyDeletewould it be safe for me to say that you would promote a Theocracy with the bible as your founding document and your laws?
Nope, not really, because of the infallibility of man it would fail. We in fact started out like that and now look at us. We went from a Christian nation to a secular one in a blink of an eye. We have lost our way.
In 1892 the US Supreme Court made this ruling in a case. (Church of The Holy Trinity vs. The United States.) "No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people. This is a Christian nation."
Well, those days are long gone.
Without God we are doomed to fail, so the only way our worlds society will flourish is with God at the helm and that means without corruption. Mankind will fail itself as long as there is power, greed, opportunity, and weakness. America is a fine example of this.
Government is not the answer, this I know. Britten had friendly societies for a time until the state took over providing for (x) like the the welfare system and people had less money for the friendly societies and they were forced to depend on the state. Of course that was the goal in the first place.
Froggie, you might be right and I don't have the balls for an anarchy system these days, I want to believe that I could tolerate heroin and cocaine stores down the street, but who knows.
I know people can do things individually in harmony, much better then a government system.
How many people have seen police officers while a crime is being committed? Or prevented a crime at that? They are report takers for after the fact. I know for a fact I can protect my own much better then the current police system. Remember if you don't pay your taxes they send the police if you protect yourself you will be shot. Taxes by gunpoint? Yea, great system!
I know God could do the job without effort and I cannot wait until that Day but until then I will remain in perpetual frustration with this current mentality and current corrupt Government. We are going down hard and fast now. I am OK with it since it will only bring Christ sooner.
Pvblivs,
At the barest minimum government serves the role of resolving disputes.
Yea, it's called wars! Without governments there would be no need for wars. Without governments we could just protect and love our neighbors without a need for any involvement.
Our only hope for a perfect society and world is one where God is the system. We should all pray for that wonderful day.
Dan wrote...
ReplyDelete"Without God we are doomed to fail,"
Denmark seems to be doing okay.
Dan,
ReplyDeleteOK. I don't agree, but I appreciate the answer.
The Supreme Court said this was a religious people and a Christian nation in 1892? Heh. Legislating from the bench again, right?
ReplyDeleteThat's strange, though, for in 1796 -- almost a hundred years earlier -- the Treaty with Tripoli stated that, "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
--
Stan
"'At the barest minimum government serves the role of resolving disputes.'
ReplyDelete"Yea, it's called wars! Without governments there would be no need for wars. Without governments we could just protect and love our neighbors without a need for any involvement."
Actually, it's generally called a court of some sort. Government in the role of dispute resolver is only capable of resolving those disputes that are among the citizens that recognize the government. When there are multiple governments, each government can meaningfully be thought of as a "person." Again, absent a dispute resolver, competing interests lead to wars. But, absent a local government, neighbors fight each other. This is because people think that their neighbors are trampling their rights. But people are (usually) not trying to cheat each other and so can calm down and accept the decision of a neutral arbitrator. But that is the key. The arbitrator must be recognized as neutral.
It's laughable to think that without government there'd be no war.
ReplyDeleteDan,
ReplyDeleteWithout God we are doomed to fail
A dinosaurs getting wiped out by a giant meteor kind of fail? Or an F on your mid-term kind of fail?
Dan,
ReplyDelete"would it be safe for me to say that you would promote a Theocracy with the bible as your founding document and your laws?
Nope, not really, because of the infallibility of man it would fail."
Not to be pedantic, but did you mean fallibility?
Dan's statement brings an interesting scenario to mind.
ReplyDeleteImagine if lawyers abandoned all use of the constitution and secular laws and started pleading cases based on only the bible.
The worms would be verily springing from that can!
With the hundreds (thousands?) of interpretations of the bible no cases would ever be settled.
Agreed Froggie. It's absolutely ridiculous to claim that the Bible is a source of objective morality, when individual Christians cherry-pick which scripture they're going follow and which they're not.
ReplyDeleteThe diversity of Christian belief and practice is proof of the fallibility of the Bible.
edit: grammar
Froggie,
ReplyDeleteNot to be pedantic, but did you mean fallibility?
Opps, yes. Without pedantically critical people here, I would be quite incomprehensible so thank you. That's my public education and bong years for you.
Now don't get me wrong I am quite torn a bit. After just finishing being part of a criminal trial I am a fan of our court system. By treating it as sacred, the system works. Does that mean there must be a government to regulate our courts? Can mediation be accomplished without a government? These are good questions. Probably not. The courts believe it's OK to murder humans (abortions) as long as they cannot fight back. So the current system is failing. I just think if man is involved it is doomed to fail. A government established by God (New Jerusalem) will work for eternity. I believe a supernatural government is our only hope and our only solution for fairness. I can't wait.
Wem,
ReplyDeleteThe diversity of Christian belief and practice is proof of the fallibility of the Bible.
Not to be pedantic, but did you mean fallibility of people?
Not unless you're referring to the people who wrote it.
ReplyDeleteDan,
ReplyDeleteYou said:
"Now don't get me wrong I am quite torn a bit. After just finishing being part of a criminal trial I am a fan of our court system. By treating it as sacred, the system works."
Treating it as sacred? WE set up that system. It is not sacred. It is a logical and humane (as we can be) system to deal with people that do not follow the societal norms.
Dan +†+ said...
ReplyDeleteWem,
The diversity of Christian belief and practice is proof of the fallibility of the Bible.
Not to be pedantic, but did you mean fallibility of **people?**
-------------------------------
That would not be being Pedantic, the would be Throwing in the Old Red Herring! HA!
Froggie,
ReplyDeleteImagine if lawyers abandoned all use of the constitution and secular laws and started pleading cases based on only the bible.
That's why Frodologist theologians are agitating to have crime and sin be made the same thing: crimesin. Priests and judges can both dole out a harsh pentence (penance + sentence) and it saves millions in terms of police resources. It's much easier when a murderer can just go to his priest to confess and save himself from having to go to jail!
Frodo,
ReplyDeleteme-Without God we are doomed to fail
Frodo-A dinosaurs getting wiped out by a giant meteor kind of fail? Or an F on your mid-term kind of fail?
Um yes. Don't worry though, God is not about to abandon us even though we are attempting to push Him out of everything we do. He will change things here shortly. All glory will go to Him and we all will worship Him.
From the words of Dr. Cornelius Van Til said "Believers themselves have not chosen the Christian position because they are wiser then others. What they have they have by grace alone. But this does not mean that they accept the problematics of fallen man as right...Fallen man does in principle seek to be a law unto himself. But he cannot carry our his own principle to its full degree. He is restrained from doing so...In spite of what he does against God, he can and must work for God; thus he is able to make a "positive contribution" to human culture. (A Christian Theory of Knowledge, 1969 pp. 43-44)
Dan, I realize this is weeks late, but I really want to say this.
ReplyDeleteYou say you're an anarchist, but I believe Paul (the apostle, not Ron) fundamentally disagreed with your political views:
"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves." - Romans 1:2-3
Ain't that a kick in the Libertarian hiney? (Especially is you go on the read verse 6 and 7 :D)
On the other hand, one could argue that Democracy is of Satan since the leaders are 'ordained' by the sinful voting public. This makes since, since the founders deliberately disobeyed this commandment when they rebelled against King George. Therefore, since America was founded on sin and no bad tree can bear good fruit, the only godly thing to do would be to return back to British rule.
Oh, and as for Communism...
"Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common .... Nor was there anyone among them who lacked; for all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, and laid them at the apostles’ feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need. And Joses, who was also named Barnabas by the apostles (which is translated Son of Encouragement), a Levite of the country of Cyprus, having land, sold it, and brought the money and laid it at the apostles’ feet.
But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things. And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him.
Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 And Peter answered her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?”
She said, “Yes, for so much.” Then Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. And the young men came in and found her dead, and carrying her out, buried her by her husband. So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things." - Acts 4:32-5:11
Now, what would you think if a "Christian nation" modeled their economic system after this example? Why, it would be one nation under Jehovah Stalin!
Kip ,
ReplyDeleteYou say you're an anarchist
I am to the current government. I agree with Romans 13:2-3 and I haven't violated these thing at all. I will remain subject to our governing authorities. God is a just God and if I lived in Germany in 1940-1041 I would surely be executed for disobeying my government. But we are not to violate God's will no matter what the Government says. We are to honor our parents also, but what if they tell us to rob banks? I should do a post about this.
Ain't that a kick in the Libertarian hiney?
Yes but I never said I was a Libertarian either.
one could argue that Democracy is of Satan since the leaders are 'ordained' by the sinful voting public.
That might be true and I thank God the US doesn't have a democracy and the founding fathers thought ahead enough to establish a republic.
Why, it would be one nation under Jehovah Stalin!
I am fully comfortable with a dictatorship with a just God at the helm. When mankind tries to do the right thing there are always some evil ones to exploit it. God cannot and would not do that so the just system would work. Especially since God knows our thought life. (Matthew 5:28) The patriot act even attempted to emulate this, but corruption will/has ensue(d). :)
Alright, I see you have put thought into this. I guess I'll just have to try harder to trip you up. :P
ReplyDeleteQuotes that I enjoyed by Ludwig von Mises:
ReplyDelete"If one rejects laissez faire on account of mans fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action."
"A society that chooses between capitalism and socialism does not choose between two social systems; it chooses between social cooperation and the disintegration of society. Socialism: is not an alternative to capitalism; it is an alternative to any system under which men can live as human beings."
"The salesman thanks the customer for patronizing his shop and asks him to come again. But the socialists say: Be grateful to Hitler, render thanks to Stalin; be nice and submissive, then the great man will be kind to you later too."
We are doomed under Obama!
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ReplyDelete