It was a great debate, or what I would more accurately say, a great discussion between Sye Ten Bruggencate and Justin Schieber. No moderator needed. Nice.
**The discussion moved and can now be heard at the bottom of this page
I will be studying this conversation for a while, as it has some great information. One of my favorite points that Sye made, that even stood me up was when Justin, as an Atheist, wanted to point to things in the Bible for some of his justifications for his reasoning.
Sye said "I don't discuss Scripture with those that don't hold it as authoritative." Which is a great point, as I get bogged down often here doing just that, with good reason.
Sye pointed out, and I am paraphrasing here, that we all have rescuing devices. We're going to interpret Scripture with the revelation that God does not lie. You will interpret it with your "subjective" view of logic. I can reconcile certain things the Bible says to a Christian, and we do. I am not going to reconcile with non Christians because you are going to bring your assumptions that God doesn't exist, that God can lie... ...If you are not entering with the assumptions that God cannot lie then you are entering with an incorrect assumption and there is no reason to discuss anything about God or the Bible with you. You're going to come in with your interpretation, just as I am going to come in with my interpretation based on God's revelations.
But the thing is though, the most important point here, that you are unable to UNDERSTAND or know the truth UNTIL you repent. Repentance comes BEFORE knowledge of truth, not after: 2 Timothy 2:24-26
Many have been trying to show you the truth so that you can repent, but that's wrong, you will not be able to see the truth UNTIL you repent. Huge difference.
Its worth listening to...over and over again...you know,...until it sinks in.
Update: Justin does, towards the end, get bogged down in the discussion of morals. As it was pointed out in an older post called "Atheists Assume Morality" (bit.ly/assmorals), Justin was still never able to justify morality. This was the point of that post, in that as Meister states, "By arguing for a belief in or knowledge of morality without providing a justification for morality, atheists confuse moral epistemology (moral knowledge) with moral ontology (foundation existence of morality)."
All you're telling me is that the bible is a lie. Repentance does not and must not come before knowledge of a reason to repent. So, make it easy. Just say outright that you follow a lie. I mean... we can already figure it out. Now that you have knowledge (knowledge first) you can repent of serving the lie that is the bible. It would be good for you to be a seeker of truth. And we can tell that, for all your lip-service, you know that the bible is not it.
ReplyDeleteSo once again, Dan is going for that old time circular reasoning...that has got to be the most stupid verse in the entire book.
ReplyDelete"Sye said "I don't discuss Scripture with those that don't hold it as authoritative." Which is a great point"
ReplyDeleteThen what exactly is the utility of having a theological discussion with anyone other than a fellow Christian? The Christian should only say "accept my beliefs and then we can talk", which would kind of preclude any real discussion.
"Sye pointed out, and I am paraphrasing here, that we all have rescuing devices."
It's fine to have a "rescuing device", but if you don't have an "ejector seat", a piece of evidence that would cause you to abandon your belief system as untenable, then again there is no real point in a Christian and non-Christian having a discussion.
There is no god but Allah and Mohamed is the prophet of Allah.
ReplyDeleteIts worth listening to...over and over again...you know,...until it sinks in.
Because clearly saying something over and over again makes it true and will convince people to change their ways.
If for some reason you don't think someone repeating that first sentence over and over again to be a good reason to convert to Islam, then you shouldn't be surprised that repeatedly telling people to repent will convert them to Christianity. Simply stating it is not going to convince anyone.
"Sye said "I don't discuss Scripture with those that don't hold it as authoritative." Which is a great point"
ReplyDeleteOr, to paraphrase further -
"Sye said 'I'm a massive douchebag'"
D.A.N,
ReplyDelete>> Many of us, including myself, have been trying to show you the truth so that you can repent, but that's wrong, you will not be able to see the truth UNTIL you repent.
Repentance comes after the knowledge.
For example: a 5 year old child steals US$10,00 dollars from her mother’s purse. The mother finds out about it and explains the child stealing is wrong and it has consequences. The child will repent and will ask the mother to forgive her. How a child will repent from stealing before knowing stealing is wrong? It makes no sense.
>> If you are not entering with the assumptions that God cannot lie then you are entering with an incorrect assumption and there is no reason to discuss anything about God or the Bible with you. You're going to come in with your interpretation, just as I am going to come in with my interpretation based on God's revelations.
So, the only way to discuss with you here is if we accept your interpretation and worldview? If it is, there’s no debate, no discussion, nothing.
If Sye said he doesn’t discuss the scriptures with those that don't hold it as authoritative, so why he debates with non christians? If you – D.A.N – think that way too, why you debate with us then?
>> Its worth listening to...over and over again...you know,...until it sinks in.
It doesn’t matter how many times nonsense baloney is repeated, it still remains being nonsense baloney
Sorry if this is off topic Dan, but I've often heard you say how great the USA is. I'm wondering what you have to say about the proposed super congress. The proposal has wide support from democrats and republicans(and actually some opposition in both parties as well). Already passed in the House, and is likely going to pass in the Senate as well. This super congress will be a major change in your government if it actually gets created.
ReplyDeleteSorry my bad, it looks like it was passed by the senate today, and signed into law by Obama. But the question still stands, what do you think about the super congress?
ReplyDeleteMax,
ReplyDelete>>Sorry if this is off topic Dan, but I've often heard you say how great the USA is.
O'rly? No, what I do believe is that we are headed in the wrong direction. Its really one of the main reasons why we do not educate our kids through the Governmental indoctrinating public school system.
>>what do you think about the super congress?
Its unconstitutional. Its wrong on so many levels. Its a cop out by wimpy, spineless, leaders. What else would you expect from these professing "leaders"? I have nothing but contempt for the whole lot of them.
If anything I am a strong constitutionalists. This government is removing itself far from that at an alarming rate. I am not really recognizing this new direction as anything "American".
I started to completely lose all hope when those bail outs started. Bush dropped the ball completely by bedding with all those Goldman Sachs cronies. Have you seen "Inside Job" yet? We are in real trouble here, but rape indeed has a way of destroying everything.
At this rate, I will have to soon change this blog to a more beneficial title, like "Ammo and Seeds" :7)
It's doubtful that you're capable of carrying or planting either.
ReplyDeleteHow do you know that your reasoning about this or ANYTHING is valid?
ReplyDeleteDan, what the fuck does that last comment of yours have to do with anything?
ReplyDeleteAnd how do you know that YOUR reasoning is valid, since all it is is one big circle jerk?
You had to have trusted your senses and your reasoning at some point before you heard "the word" after all, so you really have the same question to answer.
Oh wow. Man. I was feeling a little down but I just laughed so hard I pissed myself a bit. This beautiful. A perfect example of the stupidity that is pre-sup.
ReplyDeleteAnd I love the way conservative Christians make an idol out of the Constitution.
Rufus,
ReplyDelete>>And I love the way conservative Christians make an idol out of the Constitution.
Is it your claim that I place the Constitution BEFORE God? If so, please reveal the evidence to that. Otherwise the claim falls apart very quickly.
Oh and Rufus, your "nervous laughter" is quite telling.
ReplyDelete"People laugh when they need to project dignity and control during times of stress and anxiety. In these situations we usualy laugh in a subconscious attempt to reduce stress and calm down. However, it often works otherwise. Nervous laughter is often considered fake laughter and even heightens the awkwardness of the situation."
Huh? What makes you think that his laughter is "nervous"? You even put that in quotes. Where did the guy say that his laughter was nervous? When are you going to deal with the questions I asked of you?
ReplyDeleteIs it your claim that Rufus' laughter was nervous? If so, please reveal the evidence to that. Otherwise the claim falls apart very quickly. ;)
ReplyDeleteTouché Max.
ReplyDelete>> Is it your claim that I place the Constitution BEFORE God? If so, please reveal the evidence to that. Otherwise the claim falls apart very quickly.
ReplyDeleteObviously you put god/bible before the constitution; if you did put the constitution before your religious beliefs you would agree with the fact USA is a secular country; you wouldn't be against secularism; you wouldn't agree with opression against religious beliefs and the opression against non religious ideologies; you would disagree with the teachings of creationism and ID in public schools, you would agree that The National Day of Prayer is unconstitutional; you wouldn't be against the right to freedom of expression everyone have (including those who have different opinions and ideologies than yours), etc...
Not sure if troll or just Christian.
ReplyDelete