tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post448199836704529590..comments2024-03-19T01:46:23.275-04:00Comments on Debunking Atheists: Worldviews in ConflictD. A. N. http://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-42790282993292819622009-12-01T13:43:38.013-05:002009-12-01T13:43:38.013-05:00...
I know, this is kinda late to be commenting o......<br /><br />I know, this is kinda late to be commenting on this, but LOL at Christianity being a cure to the fear of being a nonChristian! That's like saying deism is a cure to the fear of being a non-deist! The only difference is that in the end Christianity is a cure of fearing God's wrath, kinda like the sun-worshippers who gave their gods human sacrifices to save them from their paranoia of their gods...Tim Atheisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15433663197986287931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-13555309627507111562009-04-16T17:07:00.000-04:002009-04-16T17:07:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10659212150994482317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-67091613044891518142009-04-16T16:50:00.000-04:002009-04-16T16:50:00.000-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10659212150994482317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-70251164931660612082009-03-20T10:37:00.000-04:002009-03-20T10:37:00.000-04:00Dan:I asked Reynold this but he couldn't answer. I...<B>Dan:</B><BR/><I>I asked Reynold this but he couldn't answer. I said: So you account for logic with "Greeks did it"?</I><BR/>They're the first ones to work them out, <B>without</B> any help from your "god".<BR/><BR/><I>Hope this was worth the wait.<BR/><BR/>Oh yea one more thing, the only God there is is the God of the Bible. If you want to argue the Qur'an's god or the Hindu's god(s) then present your case. The Creator is the the creator of the universe the one we use to account for logic. It just so happens that same Creator is described in His Word called The Holy Bible. I suppose you can write that off as just another coincidence but how can you be certain of that...or anything for that matter?</I><BR/>If your god is the basis of logic then please show that. List the bible verses where the laws of logic are laid down. <BR/><BR/>Until then, you've got nothing.<BR/><BR/>As for being able to "account" for laws of logic, they don't need "accounting" for any more than the rules of mathematics do.<BR/><BR/>How can your god "create" ideas? What makes you so certain that the laws of logic wouldn't exist independently of your god? <BR/><BR/>As I said before on Ray's blog if god picked out the laws of logic that made sense, then they exist independently of him and he's not necessary for them to exist. He'd just be the first one to figure them out.<BR/><BR/>If any "law of logic" your god picked out became "logical" or "sensible" because he decreed it, then the laws of logic are arbitrary based on his will.<BR/><BR/>Don't dodge this by saying what Sye used to say: "Neither". They're a part of his nature. That's just a fancy way of agreeing with the first option and doesn't help your case.Reynoldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07316048340050664487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-66893883256036078432009-03-13T15:30:00.000-04:002009-03-13T15:30:00.000-04:00Dan: "[H]ow do you account for the laws o...Dan:<BR/><BR/> "[H]ow do you account for the laws of logic existing before space/time?"<BR/> Did you notice your contradiction? The very concept of "before" implies time. So there is no such thing as "before time." One might say that logic exists independent of time, as I say that it exists independent of any god.<BR/> "Oh yea one more thing, the only God there is is the God of the Bible. If you want to argue the Qur'an's god or the Hindu's god(s) then present your case."<BR/> There is just as much evidence for those gods as there is for yours -- none. You have not made a case for the christian god in particular. You just assume it.<BR/> All worldviews do have presumptions, things which are implicit to the worldview and thus not accounted for. Logic is one of my presumptions. It's one of yours as well. You only pretend to account for it with your god. You have to use it to do the "accounting" and thus demonstrate that you have it as a presumption.Pvblivshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17931937272948538181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-4660864898944121512009-03-13T14:07:00.000-04:002009-03-13T14:07:00.000-04:00Stan,Do you wish I would sell my kids to free up t...Stan,<BR/><BR/>Do you wish I would sell my kids to free up time to answer your precious comments? I have always said that squeaky wheels gets my attention so since you are emulating a mouse I will turn my attention to you. Some comments stand alone so I don't respond to all of them. I move on but never move out. All comments come to me so even if someone wanted to continue "Battle of Wits?" we could.<BR/><BR/><I>I doubt many of us, if any, ever gave the origin of logic a second thought -- a first thought -- before our initial encounter with Sye. As many others have pointed out, it is dishonest to dispute premises upon which all parties agree.</I><BR/><BR/>True we all take it (logic) for granted, it is worth exploring where exactly it comes from and Cornelius Van Til, Dr. Bahnsen, and others state a compelling case. It's quite new to me and I am playing catch up. Oh and to claim it "dishonest" to explore such a thing doesn't make it so. That action is disingenuous on your part (see?).<BR/><BR/><I>It's disingenuous at the very least, and your clumsiness makes the attempts all the more pathetic.</I><BR/><BR/>So? We are not all expert skaters from the very beginning. Did your Mom rag you for not being able to walk, right away, as a baby? Did she yell at you for not knowing calculus in second grade? We all have starting points. You are being disingenuously hypocritical. One thing for sure is that I like it. I like the fact TAG even stopped myself to attempt to answer such questions. I cannot account for logic other then God.<BR/><BR/><I> but it instead falls prey to the same presupposition that plagues everyone: that they have a valid ability to reason.</I><BR/><BR/>Way to go captain obvious. Psst, hey, I will let you in on a secret, all worldviews have presuppositions. THe problem is you cannot reason why <I>your</I> reason is consistent or valid. <BR/><BR/>You must presuppose God in order for anything to make sense. Like what I wrote in the <A HREF="http://debunkingatheists.blogspot.com/2009/01/josh-responds-to-sye.html" REL="nofollow">Josh post</A>:<BR/><BR/>"Christianity offers a cohesive worldview whereby we do have an objective standard so when somebody tortures you; rapes you; kills you; we can say, No, that is wrong. It's not just personal preference, it's objectively wrong. We do have a revelation to the origin of life. Life doesn't come from non-life, life doesn't come from matter. Life comes from a Creative being called God. Christianity has all the answers and everything you need to live life, not just practically but rationally."<BR/><BR/>Otherwise maybe you can tell us how you can be certain of your logic? To really piss you off I will quote Sye: "The proof of God’s existence, is that without Him you couldn’t prove anything. Proof requires logic. One must be able to account for the laws of logic, or the proof ends in an infinite regress of ‘and how do you know that?’ You have not accounted for the laws of logic, and are therefore unable to prove anything."<BR/><BR/>It is simple how do you account for the laws of logic existing before space/time? They transcend the universe and allow us to understand said universe. It just makes "logical" sense. It is reasonable to account for logic with God. It simplifies the description to even allow Occam's Razor to apply.<BR/><BR/>I will admit that I have a lot to learn still. Are you saying that you stopped learning?<BR/><BR/>When you make a statement like <I>"until you're able either to promote the TAG crap on your own,..."</I> So are you claiming all knowledge on any given subject before you engage in any discussions? Otherwise you need to stop talking all together then. Unless you are being disingenuous. Pfft.<BR/><BR/>I asked Reynold this but he couldn't answer. I said: So you account for logic with "Greeks did it"?<BR/><BR/>Hope this was worth the wait.<BR/><BR/>Oh yea one more thing, the only God there is is the God of the Bible. If you want to argue the Qur'an's god or the Hindu's god(s) then present your case. The Creator is the the creator of the universe the one we use to account for logic. It just so happens that same Creator is described in His Word called The Holy Bible. I suppose you can write that off as just another coincidence but how can <I>you</I> be certain of that...or anything for that matter?D. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-51209067078492957972009-03-13T04:37:00.000-04:002009-03-13T04:37:00.000-04:00No response, Dan? Are you intentionally ignoring t...No response, Dan? Are you intentionally ignoring this thread, considering your position therein, or were you biding your time before offering a well-reasoned response?<BR/><BR/>You must know that the manner in which you drop one thread in favor of a new one with [poorly] rehashed arguments suggests that you ditch good topics when things aren't going your way... or has this, too, escaped your notice?<BR/><BR/>Really, I'm interested in a response here, but if you've moved on, so be it.<BR/><BR/>--<BR/>StanStan, the Half-Truth Tellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04260266801557543879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-43283621121000212082009-03-07T20:32:00.000-05:002009-03-07T20:32:00.000-05:00So you use [logic] without knowing why it's even t...<I>So you use [logic] without knowing why it's even there. You assume it has always been there. A tool that you cannot account for.</I> [sic]<BR/><BR/>Dan, you're so full of crap. Until you met Sye the Douchebag, you, too, used logic -- well, you <I>tried</I> -- without any consideration whatsoever as to its origin. I doubt many of us, if any, ever gave the origin of logic a second thought -- a first thought -- before our initial encounter with Sye. As many others have pointed out, it is dishonest to dispute premises upon which all parties agree.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, until you're able either to promote the TAG crap on your own, I, for one, would appreciate it if you'd stop copy/pasting Sye's bullshit. It's disingenuous at the very least, and your clumsiness makes the attempts all the more pathetic.<BR/><BR/>As far as the so-called "account" for logic that you demand, and that you claim TAG provides, you seem to ignore the various atheist-friendly 'accounts' for logic which have been provided... either that, or you don't understand them. Likewise, persons such as myself have often illustrated how the TAG "account" does <I>not</I> presuppose the existence of any god (much less the Christian god), but it instead falls prey to the same presupposition that plagues <I>everyone</I>: that they have a valid ability to reason. It is only through this presupposition that things like logic and mathematics can be formulated, and that conclusions such as the existence or non-existence of deity can be drawn.<BR/><BR/>Additionally, even if TAG <I>were</I> valid, it would apply to <I>any</I> proposed system which included a deity to "account" for logic, etc. Thus, any [internally consistent] proposed religion would be able to use TAG to justify itself, even if such a religion is mutually exclusive of other religions [for which TAG would likewise apply]. Thus, TAG is insufficient, even if we grant for the sake of argument that it is valid; it does not provide discriminating criteria upon which the "correct" deity can be distinguished from <I>every proposed deity</I>.<BR/><BR/>--<BR/>StanStan, the Half-Truth Tellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04260266801557543879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-15520039472280268862009-03-07T12:05:00.000-05:002009-03-07T12:05:00.000-05:00Christianity provides the preconditions of intelli...<I>Christianity provides the preconditions of intelligibility for man's experience and reasoning. If Christianity were not true, Atheists could not prove or understand anything.</I><BR/><BR/>I think what you mean is that Christianity could potentially provide an explanation for these things if it were true. The same could be said about Islam or Judaism or any other number of theistic "worldviews." The fact that any one of them could potentially provide an explanation for these things should show you that your argument fails. I am sure you will not recognize that though.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17199156131540769389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-9356316523773031092009-03-06T18:07:00.000-05:002009-03-06T18:07:00.000-05:00Pvblivs,We just assume logicSo you use it without ...Pvblivs,<BR/><BR/><I>We just assume logic</I><BR/><BR/>So you use it without knowing why it's even there. You assume it has always been there. A tool that you cannot account for. Great we are through then, God exists. <BR/><BR/>Christianity provides the preconditions of intelligibility for man's experience and reasoning. If Christianity were not true, Atheists could not prove or understand anything.D. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-36824595422437172202009-03-06T17:58:00.000-05:002009-03-06T17:58:00.000-05:00Pvblivs,No, I am talking about people who were con...Pvblivs,<BR/><BR/><I>No, I am talking about people who were convinced and acted the part, but who later left christianity. I am talking about people that you would only identify in retrospect "reasons why their faith was not true." </I><BR/><BR/>Acted was the proper word. If the Bible declares there is no such thing as an ex Christian then the "authority " still stands.D. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-23476529976607396072009-03-06T17:31:00.000-05:002009-03-06T17:31:00.000-05:00Dan: That's all very nice, but it evades t...Dan:<BR/><BR/> That's all very nice, but it evades the point. If you or someone like you were later to decide that christianity was not true, fundamentalists would still use the "false christian" label. No, I am talking about people who were convinced and acted the part, but who later left christianity. I am talking about people that you would only identify in retrospect "reasons why their faith was not true."Pvblivshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17931937272948538181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-68004878905210928632009-03-06T16:05:00.000-05:002009-03-06T16:05:00.000-05:00Pvblivs,After labelling someone a "false convert,"...Pvblivs,<BR/><BR/><I>After labelling someone a "false convert," it is easy to go back and say they were never certain.</I><BR/><BR/>Great point, I just knew I would have to explain this reasoning.<BR/><BR/>If someone is certain they are a Christian then how do they know this? Well they presuppose the authority of God's Word. So if that Word tells that they are in fact a stony ground hearer, like my case, then the authority of the Bible said that I am, in fact, <B>not</B> a Christian. If, as a Christian, I am to rely on the Bibles authority then I must, logically and honestly, admit that I am not a Christian and rely on the description of a Christian.<BR/><BR/>My buddy has a friend that claims Christianity but he goes to porn shops and porn website all then time. Or use Ted Haggard as the example even (unrepentant sinning). Does the Bible describe this "fruit" as a Christian? Nope, so then he is not a Christian no matter how much he asserts that he is or was. You cannot be certain of Christianity without honoring the authority of God's Word.<BR/><BR/>So there is zero professed Christians (false converts) that, under the authority of the Bible, are certain of their Salvation.D. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-11648077953223111032009-03-06T15:43:00.000-05:002009-03-06T15:43:00.000-05:00 How many "false" christians have sa... How many "false" christians have <I>said</I> (like Dan says) that they were certain they were not false. (I'm pretty sure that one's not zero.) After labelling someone a "false convert," it is easy to go back and say they were never certain.Pvblivshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17931937272948538181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-12642509917782253932009-03-06T15:32:00.000-05:002009-03-06T15:32:00.000-05:00how many "false" Christians are certain that they'...<I>how many "false" Christians are certain that they're not false?</I><BR/><BR/>ZeroD. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-70533892546304150212009-03-06T15:04:00.000-05:002009-03-06T15:04:00.000-05:00Dan wrote I am sure you realize you are not a Chri...Dan wrote <I>I am sure you realize you are not a Christian. I know with certainty that I am</I><BR/><BR/>A question for you, Dan: how many "false" Christians are certain that they're not false?<BR/><BR/>Take your time answering this one; it's a tough question...Whatevermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14458601080799278850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-38348418307646732612009-03-06T14:29:00.000-05:002009-03-06T14:29:00.000-05:00Wem,Fear of not being a true Christianaka. Christi...Wem,<BR/><BR/><I>Fear of not being a true Christian<BR/><BR/>aka. Christians still fear Hell</I><BR/><BR/>It's not Christians who still fear Hell but false converts as they should. When I realized I was one then, ouch, I was frightened to the core. I had a broken and contrite heart (Psalm 34:18,Psalm 51:17) and feared Him (Proverbs 9:10) because it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Hebrews 10:31) when opposing Him. <BR/><BR/>God did reveal to me I was being a false convert. That is no longer the case. Amen. It was revealed to me that I am soundly saved and He will not let go of me anymore. I am written in the Book of life. Amen again<BR/><BR/>I am sure you realize you are not a Christian. I know with certainty that I am, and it's humbling me daily. I wish you the same someday.D. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-4021960807957516542009-03-06T14:11:00.000-05:002009-03-06T14:11:00.000-05:00Not only that, Clos, but there's one additional fe...Not only that, Clos, but there's one additional fear Christians have that atheists don't:<BR/><BR/><I>Fear of not being a true Christian</I><BR/><BR/>aka. Christians still fear HellWhatevermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14458601080799278850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-49921042651899821482009-03-06T10:50:00.000-05:002009-03-06T10:50:00.000-05:00"Remember that being a Christian all fear should l..."Remember that being a Christian all fear should leave you. You are no longer afraid of anyone, for any reason. (Matthew 10:28)"<BR/><BR/>And does this work in practice? You'd go out in the 'yard' with prisoners? And wouldn't be afraid? You could break the ice by telling them you debunk atheists!Clostridiophilehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06242245098663362751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-50469558769159090262009-03-06T02:50:00.000-05:002009-03-06T02:50:00.000-05:00"My life can be an open book, I wish the same conf..."My life can be an open book, I wish the same confidence for you Kaitlyn."<BR/><BR/>What do you mean?<BR/><BR/>"No one should live like you appear to be living."<BR/><BR/>What?Debunkey Monkeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15355896606457674317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-7787260724336182352009-03-06T02:33:00.000-05:002009-03-06T02:33:00.000-05:00Dan- apology accepted. Perhaps I'm just too innoc...Dan- apology accepted. Perhaps I'm just too innocent, but for me, "cute" doesn't necessarily have sexual connotations at all. Hey, I must admit, I even find <I>you</I> cute at times.<BR/><BR/>And I have to agree about Susi's makeup- it just looks silly. However, I'm funny about makeup- I don't like it on grownups either. But that's television and/or bad taste.<BR/><BR/>What I found cute about Susi is the way she delivered the message. She is still young enough to get away with being a smartypants and look cute doing it. When you or I try it, we just look childish.<BR/><BR/>Anyway: your German text is now better, although there's still one grammatical error (the "sie" in the third sentence, which means "they" or "she", has no referent- I suspect a typo). I don't agree with the sentiment, however (big surprise, eh?).<BR/><BR/>Kaitlyn: are you putting us on, or putting us off?zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-12219077604348263442009-03-06T01:57:00.000-05:002009-03-06T01:57:00.000-05:00Kaitlyn,I want to find all the mics and cameras, b...Kaitlyn,<BR/><BR/><I>I want to find all the mics and cameras, but I can't without destroying the entire apartment.</I><BR/><BR/>Didn't Ozzy say that "Paranoia will destroy you"<BR/><BR/>Remember that being a Christian all fear should leave you. You are no longer afraid of anyone, for any reason. (Matthew 10:28) <BR/><BR/>Bonus: No fear of Hell.<BR/><BR/>We fear God sure but it's more of a respect towards him fear. Fear to disappoint but that may even be unwarranted, in Christ we can do all things. Especially live a clean wholesome life in this world. <BR/><BR/>Someone once said to me that in order to get a handle on your morals is imagine if all what you do is plastered all over the morning news paper. If it makes you cringe then maybe you are doing something immoral or embarrassing. <BR/><BR/>If my life was plastered all over the morning news paper then there would be just a loss of subscribers from boredom but nothing really embarrassing to try to hide from.<BR/><BR/>My life can be an open book, I wish the same confidence for you Kaitlyn. No one should live like you appear to be living.D. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-76311838576349797752009-03-06T01:08:00.000-05:002009-03-06T01:08:00.000-05:00"I do. What do you know about my life? Are you loo..."I do. What do you know about my life? Are you looking in my house!? BE HONEST!!!!!"<BR/><BR/>My apartment has windows people use to spy on me, and I hear my speakers flicker even when they are off. There's electronic surveillance equipment creating an interference bubble. I want to find all the mics and cameras, but I can't without destroying the entire apartment. The key is to be quiet.Debunkey Monkeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15355896606457674317noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-51478759864801881782009-03-06T00:33:00.000-05:002009-03-06T00:33:00.000-05:00Chris Mackey, I think kittens, puppies and Kaitlyn...Chris Mackey, <BR/><BR/><I>I think kittens, puppies and Kaitlyn's avatar are cute. I think it's scary that someone says "cute" and you start thinking about sex and "whores". </I><BR/><BR/>I admit that was a little harsh. I didn't think she looked cute at all because cute is associated with the things you mentioned. I lashed out and I owe Zilch an apology.<BR/><BR/>Zilch,<BR/><BR/>Sorry dude. I was not inferring anything gross at all.<BR/><BR/>Politely and kindly I should of just said: I don't think she is cute with all that makeup and hair the way it is. <BR/><BR/>Can I blame you Atheists for that? No, I didn't think so. It's hard to be Christ like at times. This time was a big fail on my part.D. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-88709471976499983682009-03-06T00:04:00.000-05:002009-03-06T00:04:00.000-05:00Froggie,Homeschoolers are always hollering about w...Froggie,<BR/><BR/><I>Homeschoolers are always hollering about wanting the controversy taught in public schools, yet I'm sure they don't teach evolution to their own kids so they can decide on their own.</I><BR/><BR/>I do. What do you know about my life? Are you looking in my house!? BE HONEST!!!!!D. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.com