tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post3945044515350813252..comments2024-03-19T01:46:23.275-04:00Comments on Debunking Atheists: The Problem of EvilD. A. N. http://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comBlogger54125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-42981273428010069902019-03-25T23:02:57.920-04:002019-03-25T23:02:57.920-04:00I think that my article would be a nice addition h...I think that my article would be a nice addition here:<br /><br />https://rationalchristiandiscernment.blogspot.com/2019/02/christian-interaction-with-problem-of.htmlJesse Albrechthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01349321905468957335noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-58259761414293418982017-10-03T17:51:36.772-04:002017-10-03T17:51:36.772-04:00Why does "The Problem of Evil" need to d...Why does "The Problem of Evil" need to deal with humans having free will and choosing to do evil? <br /><br />My problem-of-evil is neonatal cancer (as an example). Humans - other than being the victims - have nothing to do with it. If your god is omnipotent and omniscient, he put the cancer in every baby who suffered it. By any human standard, that's evil. <br />What is more innocent than a newborn baby? <br />If the suffering is "a gift", then what differentiates one innocent newborn from another, such that one deserves to suffer and another does not? Why are not all newborn humans gifted with cancer... or none, by the omnipotent god who absolutely decides these things (if it exists as described, then it is responsible)? <br /><br />Omniscience with omnipotence is incompatible with omni-benevolence. Unless you can can find a definition of love that involves the infliction of cancer. I don't want your love, nor that of your god. <br /><br />Fortunately, I am in no danger of either. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08271574174283200840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-37647086069065203892014-06-23T15:18:16.002-04:002014-06-23T15:18:16.002-04:00I am sure you would grant that some people have in...I am sure you would grant that some people have invalid reasoning, I just want to know how you're certain you are not one of those people? People with invalid reasoning would not know their reasoning is invalid. So how do you know you're not one of them?Debunking Atheists https://www.blogger.com/profile/09738373112032154790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-27825516997102262082014-06-23T02:36:37.500-04:002014-06-23T02:36:37.500-04:00"Atheists think its inconsistent and God thin..."Atheists think its inconsistent and God thinks its consistent, who are you going to believe? <br /><br />Ultimately this is a question of authority. The authority of the Atheist's logical powers verses God' logical powers. Atheists are using their logical powers to show there is no God, logically speaking. What does God tell us?"<br /><br />However, God has to exist for this argument to work. God can only have better logical powers if God exists. And looking at various other pieces of evidence from other debates, I would say he doesn't. Which makes this argument null and void for me.<br /><br />Also, yes, I do trust my reasoning abilities, because it would be nonsensical to do otherwise. You argument only proves that there is a possibility that there is a God, and if there is then it solves the problem of evil. But the atheist's argument works perfectly well if we assume there is no God. So, once again, we have to look at other pieces of evidence to decide if God exists. Using good reasoning and logic- as is the best way to decide things generally, rather than putting your trust in a questionable being- makes me conclude there is no God.<br /><br />You can keep your mindless faith as apposed to logic. But I don't feel the presence of any God, and without being given proper proof that there is one, then I see no motivation for me to do so.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01922839201324438271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-60395719385367203462012-12-11T07:35:34.681-05:002012-12-11T07:35:34.681-05:00I appreciate your comment, but before we address t...I appreciate your comment, but before we address that you have made some assumptions of your point that you will have to defend before the claim is even valid. Like Razi Zacharias said that I highlight in one of <a href="http://debunkingatheists.blogspot.com/2010/08/sufficient-evidence.html" rel="nofollow">my posts</a>, you have just invoked a moral law, or standard in raising that claim that your worldview cannot account for. That is your presupposition of the claim, is it not? Otherwise, the claim self destructs. <br /><br />You're complaining about something that, if your atheistic worldview we're true, would be impossible for you to do. Namely, complain about the evil that exists, and that is a contradiction that needs to be fleshed out first.D. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-51962594365531224542012-12-11T04:55:46.608-05:002012-12-11T04:55:46.608-05:00I have reviewed Plantinga's God, Freedom and E...I have reviewed Plantinga's God, Freedom and Evil on Amazon, addressing one of the rebuttals you have attemped.<br /><br />http://www.amazon.com/review/R3C8NXQ509YAAP/ref=cm_aya_cmt?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0802817319#wasThisHelpful<br /><br />"Why the Free Will Defense Fails<br /><br />The Problem of Evil is an insurmountable one for Christians (and all other theists who believe in a perfectly loving, all-powerful and all-knowing god). There have been intense and motivated efforts over the past two millennia to defend such a position rationally, and they have all failed. Miserably. Utterly. And in many cases, dishonestly.<br /><br />Some approached involve invoking an unknown "greater good" defense (which throws god's omnipotence under the bus. An omnipotent deity could simply actualise a desired goal without needing to use suffering as a "middle man"). Attempts to shift the problem by asserting that human happiness is not the goal of life (but knowing god is) removes the omnibenevolence and omnipotence of god (if you love someone, you don't want them to suffer. It really is that simple).<br /><br />Here, Plantinga takes the old canard of free will. Unfortunately, free will is meaningless unless everyone has an equal amount of it. This is undeniably NOT the case. Not everyone is given the same lifespan, physical strength, mental acuity, political clout, financial resources, and so on. Plantinga is pontificating from the luxurious confines of his residence, funded by conveniently gullible sheep. This has certainly damaged his ability to empathise with the billions who live on less than a dollar each day. And the thousands who starve to death every time the Earth completes a full rotation.<br /><br />Plantinga also, perhaps unwittingly, advocates a social Darwinism in which the rich and physically powerful are able to murder, rape and steal from weaker individuals (and are therefore less able to exercise their own free will to prevent their own suffering). Plantinga worships a cosmic pedophile who revels in granting freedom to abhorrent individuals while getting his jollies from seeing the most vulnerable suffer and die in agony (only to get thrown into even more torture in the Christian vision of hell).<br /><br />Lastly, a loving god would take away free will from those who would willingly surrender it in return for a life without suffering. Funnily enough, Plantinga seems to believe in a heaven without suffering but with all the bells and whistles of freedom. So why not create that universe from the get-go and stick with it? Why create a universe with even the possibility of corruption? It certainly is not something a perfect god would do. Then again, a perfect god would not blackmail beings he supposedly loves for eternal worship."Winstonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14029187310122412297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-41089220067601070712011-02-25T20:16:13.053-05:002011-02-25T20:16:13.053-05:00Meatros,
I think your question are addressed in m...Meatros,<br /><br />I think your question are addressed in my <a href="http://debunkingatheists.blogspot.com/2011/02/atheists-epistemological-lacking.html" rel="nofollow">newest post</a>.D. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-85372000373497373802011-02-24T13:15:25.924-05:002011-02-24T13:15:25.924-05:00This seems to be misguided. The problem of evil is...This seems to be misguided. The problem of evil is an problem that is internal to the Christian worldview. It may also be a problem for the atheist worldview as well - internally - as you attempt to demonstrate.<br /><br />Simply saying that atheists have a problem is interesting, but completely avoids the actual issue. <br /><br />Interestingly enough, you write: <br /><br />"Now, at this long point, the question is about ultimate trust. Do you trust your own reasoning abilities so much that you can say that you are not in that locked dark room, Mr. Atheist? Or do you rather trust, although you can't understand it, although its a mystery to you, that you can put yourself in the hands of an all good, all powerful God and say 'His wisdom is above my wisdom, and I trust Him for the outcome.'"<br /><br />I cannot see how this even makes sense.<br /><br />Let's see:<br />1. If you can't understand it, then what exactly are you 'trusting'? Ignorance?<br />2. If you can't trust your own reasoning abilities, then how exactly are you supposed to determine *which* revelations of God should be trusted?<br /><br />Seems that this, "God has a morally sufficient reason for the evil which exists. ", simply begs the question. <br /><br />How do we know this? <br /><br />You write: <br /><br />"The Bible reveals to us that God is all good and all powerful and tells us that evil exists in the world. The Bible, because its true is consistent, and therefore those three things are consistent."<br /><br />Trouble is, we can't trust our autonomous reasoning, so how can we determine if the Bible is indeed God's revelation?Meatroshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12149675492272807831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-40121888907180949742011-01-04T15:16:02.993-05:002011-01-04T15:16:02.993-05:00Also Ninja,
Notice that Plantinga says or makes t...Also Ninja,<br /><br />Notice that Plantinga says or makes the exact same point as Bahnsen at around 8:11 of <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSaaYTKIE70&feature=related" rel="nofollow">this video</a>. Admittedly, I am liking Plantinga more and more as I listen to him/ read about him. I am excited, again thanks.D. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-20386782218355761662011-01-04T12:48:44.156-05:002011-01-04T12:48:44.156-05:00Ninja,
Thanks for introducing me to Alvin Plantin...Ninja,<br /><br />Thanks for introducing me to <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oL5rykiekBs" rel="nofollow">Alvin Plantinga</a>, I like him. I certainly will be posting about his work in the future. Nice job.D. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-53903671597451147162011-01-04T04:19:45.704-05:002011-01-04T04:19:45.704-05:00I like your post. It's very well thought out. ...I like your post. It's very well thought out. I think a more solid solution, though, which also fits Christian scripture, is the Defense from Free Will, by Plantinga. It is impossible for God to make a world of free agents who cannot choose evil.<br /><br />More info: <br /><br /> http://philosophiesofmen.blogspot.com/2011/01/problem-of-evil.htmlCristofer Urlaubhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04001401371451376407noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-3258616444014651672010-11-16T01:17:35.170-05:002010-11-16T01:17:35.170-05:00Let's just grant for the purposes of this post...Let's just grant for the purposes of this post that Hell is a real place. I won't even make anybody prove that it exists. I'll also grant that it is possible for people to go to Hell for any length of time. And let's also grant that terrible things happen in Hell, and that it's a place I don't want to go. Even under these circumstances, should I be repenting to the Christian god to save myself from Hell? I don't think so. Why? Because they still haven't demonstrated HOW a person gets to Hell. Even Christians can't agree amongst themselves on how one gets to Hell. Some say it's for not accepting Jesus. Others say that it's based on the sins a person commits in their lifetime. I'm sure there are other beliefs as well, but it's not important.<br /><br />The point is that unless they can provide some evidence that their claim about how to get to Hell is correct, I have no reason to believe it. There is exactly the same evidence that I get to Hell by not accepting Jesus as there is evidence that I get to Hell by not eating my vegetables. Or by eating them. Or by believing in gods. Or by not believing in gods. Or by not blowing myself up for Allah. Or by turning the lights off when I go to sleep. Or by wearing red shoes. Every option you can possibly think of for how to get to Hell has exactly the same objective evidence to back it up. Zero.ANTZILLAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11588266412434898900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-33286115310445978742010-11-04T14:54:04.058-04:002010-11-04T14:54:04.058-04:00Hi Dan. I'm trying to set up a debate with Sye...Hi Dan. I'm trying to set up a debate with Sye (although he's being curiously shy) on Skype.<br /><br />As I'm organising it I'm extending an invitation to participate to the various people who have either supported or opposed him and PA.<br /><br />Let me know if you'd like to join in.Paul Bairdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06269660700687899683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-89263173726383295342010-10-24T22:26:14.727-04:002010-10-24T22:26:14.727-04:00Just in case anyone wasn't sure (and because I...Just in case anyone wasn't sure (and because I forgot to include the attribution), the above quotation was from George Orwell's <i>Nineteen Eighty-Four</i> - probably the single most frightening book I have ever read.DormantDragonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09345423282928392517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-67168976178838595112010-10-24T22:19:30.079-04:002010-10-24T22:19:30.079-04:00Pvblivs replied to Bahnsen Burner,
Your style fee...Pvblivs replied to Bahnsen Burner,<br /><br /><i>Your style feels tedious to me. I'm sure you think you're making important points... and maybe you are. But reading what you have written feels like a chore. </i><br /><br />I could actually make these same comments about several of Dan's posts - the long, rambling ones that quote Bahnsen and other presuppers, especially. <br /><br />The other factor at work is that, having spent the past few years doing a fair bit of reading on the subjects of atheism and religious belief, I have yet to encounter an 'argument' for theism that has not been thoroughly debunked by atheist thinkers.<br /><br />The problem of evil is a pretty good example. There are no arguments, as far as I have seen, that can successfully absolve the Christian god of responsibility for the evil in the world, if such a being actually exists. Spin as many words around it as you like, but I don't think there's any way you can make a new and successful argument here.<br /><br />I would be impressed if Dan or any other Bahnsen groupie could offer an explanation or demonstration of what a <i>morally sufficient</i> reason for evil might be, rather than simply asserting it without support; but I rather suspect that won't be forthcoming.<br /><br />What I have come to expect instead from evangelical apologists is a kind of Orwellian doublethink even more pronounced that what I grew up with as a Catholic, one that exposes Dan's frequent appeals to logic and reason as the sham they surely are.<br /><br />"'What are the stars?' said O'Brien indifferently. 'They are bits of fire a few kilometres away. We could reach them if we wanted to. Or we could blot them out... For certain purposes, of course, that is not true. When we navigate the ocean, or when we predict an eclipse, we often find it convenient to assume that the earth goes round the sun and that the stars are millions upon millions of kilometres away. But what of it? Do you suppose it is beyond us to produce a dual system of astronomy? The stars can be near or distant, according as we need them.'"<br /><br />Anyone else spot the similarity?DormantDragonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09345423282928392517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-77675634539188176162010-10-24T20:50:55.539-04:002010-10-24T20:50:55.539-04:00Bahnsen Burner:
"Do you have some kind ...Bahnsen Burner:<br /><br /> "Do you have some kind of aversion to reading?"<br /> I want to be fair to Dan, here. I will note that, in my case, I can read for hours and lose all track of time -- <i>if I find what is written interesting</i>. Alternately, I can get bored with something and put it down within a minute if I do not find it interesting. I have visited your blog and I generally cannot get through one of your posts. Your style feels tedious to me. I'm sure you think you're making important points... and maybe you are. But reading what you have written feels like a chore.Pvblivshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17931937272948538181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-7177975805395770532010-10-24T15:08:04.191-04:002010-10-24T15:08:04.191-04:00Dan: “Hardly, you would be in the category on the ...Dan: “Hardly, you would be in the category on the other end of the spectrum.”<br /><br />That means on the good end of the spectrum, does it not? <br /><br />Dan: “Maybe if you were a bit more introspective instead of your positional dogmatism you wouldn't feel that you were evil.”<br /><br />Actually, Dan, in case you didn’t catch it, I was being sarcastic. The fact that you tend to avoid interacting with my counterpoints suggests that you want to keep away from me, as if you thought I were some kind of threat to you. Hence the call for humor in response to Rufus’ question.<br /><br />Dan: “Granted you are evil, as we all are, but you are in a battle of your own consciousness.”<br /><br />What “battle of [my] own consciousness” do you have in mind here? A battle between which opposing sides? Keep in mind, Dan, it’s not my worldview which divides a man against himself, splitting him into two incompatible elements, both symbols of death – a ghost and a corpse. These are the two warring sides of the human condition according to Christianity. Its solution: one is to “deny himself” (i.e., suppress his own nature, his identity) and take up an instrument of torture and execution (“his cross”) and follow a something which he can only imagine (cf. Mt. 16:24). Since none of this is the heritage of my worldview, it appears you may be projecting here, and ignoring the psychological monstrosity of the worldview which you promote on your blog.<br /><br />Dan: “I will read your response when I get time. I am sure I will have to set a boat load aside to read it, right? Yup, just looked at how long it is. *whew”<br /><br />Do you have some kind of aversion to reading? I read about 80-100 pages a day. My interaction with you and Bahnsen is hardly “long” so far as I see it. If it only took me two hours to write it, it shouldn’t take you half that time to read it. Or, do you just not like to read?<br /><br />Regards,<br />DawsonBahnsen Burnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11030029491768748360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-73084057003910263252010-10-24T13:19:35.060-04:002010-10-24T13:19:35.060-04:00Burner,
>>Probably me (chuckle).
Hardly, ...Burner,<br /><br />>>Probably me (chuckle). <br /><br />Hardly, you would be in the category on the other end of the spectrum. <br /><br />Maybe if you were a bit more introspective instead of your positional dogmatism you wouldn't feel that you were evil. Granted you are evil, as we all are, but you are in a battle of your own consciousness. That is a battle I don't wish on anyone. I pray for your peace instead of your current internal conflicts. <br /><br />I will read your response when I get time. I am sure I will have to set a boat load aside to read it, right? Yup, just looked at how long it is. *whewD. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-69316557823322758592010-10-24T13:12:05.354-04:002010-10-24T13:12:05.354-04:00Rufus,
>>Dan, what is the most evil thing t...Rufus,<br /><br />>>Dan, what is the most evil thing that has happened in your life? <br /><br />Wow, what an extremely introspective question. Nice. If I do answer it I wish you to reciprocate the question...wait... this should be a new post. It would be worth exploring and collaborating about though. Give me a day, I have too much on my plate right now. Stay tuned.D. A. N. https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745259115723860852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-87674663242695207712010-10-24T00:33:41.070-04:002010-10-24T00:33:41.070-04:00Rufus: “Dan, what is the most evil thing that has ...Rufus: “Dan, what is the most evil thing that has happened in your life?”<br /><br />Probably me (chuckle). <br /><br />But seriously folks, for anyone who might be interested, I have posted a reply to Dan’s post on the problem of evil on my blog. You can find it here:<br /><br /><a href="http://bahnsenburner.blogspot.com/2010/10/some-thoughts-on-presuppositionalism.html" rel="nofollow">Some Thoughts on Presuppositionalism and the Problem of Evil</a><br /><br />Regards,<br />DawsonBahnsen Burnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11030029491768748360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-21950876223257502362010-10-23T18:02:21.271-04:002010-10-23T18:02:21.271-04:00Dan, what is the most evil thing that has happened...Dan, what is the most evil thing that has happened in your life?TJHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10570384567898770658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-89634344516595530722010-10-22T20:42:11.927-04:002010-10-22T20:42:11.927-04:00SB, far be it from me to suggest how people should...SB, far be it from me to suggest how people should enjoy spending their time online, but it seems like your purpose here is nothing more than trolling Pvblivs.<br /><br />Again, that's your business. But I have to ask, seeing as you've recently found God again, isn't this behavior a bit 'incongruous'?Whatevermanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14458601080799278850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-69801449984394517162010-10-22T16:28:21.154-04:002010-10-22T16:28:21.154-04:00 "ATVLC, You're probably right. But a... "ATVLC, You're probably right. But also, I'm an affront to many people."<br /> Yeah, the ones who believe in honesty and integrity.Pvblivshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17931937272948538181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-13673961417716201762010-10-22T08:50:33.531-04:002010-10-22T08:50:33.531-04:00ATVLC, You're probably right. But also, I'...ATVLC, You're probably right. But also, I'm an affront to many people.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7771612431511732960.post-22679715150467052012010-10-22T00:29:46.315-04:002010-10-22T00:29:46.315-04:00Is Stormbringer a Stormfront kind of person?Is Stormbringer a Stormfront kind of person?ATVLChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09429750754446304918noreply@blogger.com