|The axiom “existence exists” is metaphysical naturalism.|
The deep discussion is all about what is metaphysical primacy with some of the Atheists here. I have just come to a pivoting point that needs to be highlighted to get this out, once and for all.
The Atheists positions here assert this: The Primacy of Existence is the metaphysical primacy because existence exists. You cannot talk about anything before existence, so existence is the Primacy. Primacy of consciousness cannot be primacy because then there could be square circles, just think of the correct lottery numbers, blah, blah, blah. We could just think something into existence and it would appear, that is IF Primacy of consciousness were true.
"Existence is Identity, Consciousness is Identification."~Ayn Rand
One Atheist recently stated "Primacy of Consciousness metaphysics, however, states that objects are subject to consciousness - I could sit back and wish my keyboard to work and that wishing would make it so. Your worldview insists that the PoC holds - it has to so God can poof everything into existence just by thinking it - unfortunately for you the reality we perceive isn't subject to consciousness so we can see that the PoC doesn't hold and, by extension, your worldview is therefore, wrong."
Admittedly, I have not read anything Ayn Rand has written at all, let alone about this subject. This recently has been thrust to me by the many Rand Atheist cronies, but I did find this quote,
"Existence precedes consciousness because, consciousness is consciousness of an object. Nor can consciousness create or suspend the laws governing its objects, because every entity is something and acts accordingly [i.e., according to its identity, not according to the desires of consciousness]. Consciousness, therefore, is only a faculty of awareness. It is the power to grasp, to find out, to discover that which is. It is not a power to alter or control the nature of its objects." ~The Philosophy of Ayn Rand, pg 19
OK. That is the many Atheists position here, specifically the Ayn Rand anti-social 'virtues of selfishness' objectivism cronies, according to all the past discussions thus far in a nut shell. That Existence is Primacy.
THIS is their fallacious argument though.
"Wha, wha, wha?" says the Atheists with their mouths open.
Don't worry little birdies, I will feed ya.
First this is a false dilemma fallacy, by only presenting a choice of two and no more, is fallacious. There are other choices. Strike one.
Second fallacy, this is a strawman when he asserts "Your worldview insists that the PoC holds" He is arguing against a position that Rand made up and demand we defend it. I bought into it and tried to defend it at first, but I am erasing the chalkboard here to reset the argument where it should properly go.
Third fallacy, if you say PoE holds and that PoC cannot be because we would be able to think something to exist and it would appear, THAT is fallacious. It is a relativist fallacy. Let me explain that one. He moved the goal posts when I pseudo addressed this point earlier, but I didn't catch it then. In this post we will not allow it, because it is being highlighted.
They are claiming that PoC would allow them personally to think something into existence and that PoE holds. When I asked who's personal existence? Theirs? They claim 'No, all of existence is primacy' so the fallacy is when he asserts that ALL of existence is the Primacy YET, his personal consciousness would be able to think something into being. Understand?
If PoE is ALL of existence, or non-local, why does PoC have to be local to make their argument? This is why it is a relativist fallacy. Either both must be non-local, or both need to be local. They claim that their personal consciousness is needed to move or create objects, if PoC were true that is, but their own existence is not the primacy, obviously. Fallacious
So where are we? In the very same place we started, and have been all along, the metaphysical primacy is the Primacy of God. It is His, non-local, consciousness and existence that is the Primacy. It starts with God. You cannot have existence or consciousness without Him as the primacy. It always has been, and we all know this. Ayn Rand and her cronies have nothing but fallacious arguments, and trickery, to account for Primacy.
"That's right. To put it bluntly, her Objectivism is godless, self-centered, materialistic, anti-Christian, and anti-American." ~Tom Hoefling