August 3, 2008

Earth, Flat or Sphere?

A large misconception of the Bible is that the Bible describes earth as flat.
Galileo defended heliocentrism, and claimed it was not contrary to Scripture.

Earlier, I gave examples of scientific truths in the Bible. Someone then said to me

Dan- you have taken very simple statements from the Bible and attributed rather complex modern scientific meanings to them. I have two questions:

One- if you say that Isaiah 40:22 shows knowledge of the Earth's sphericity, what are we to make of the numerous places in the Bible where the Earth is referred to as being flat? For instance:

Isaiah 40:22 "It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:"

Thanks to Reynold for finding this, the Institute for Biblical & Scientific Studies claims "According to Morris this verse describes a spherical earth. The Hebrew word is hwg. I believe that this refers to the circular horizon that vaults itself over the earth to form a dome" (Meyers 1989, 63-9).

Isaiah 11:12 "And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Revelation 7:1 "And after these things I saw four angels standing on four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."

The four corners of the earth is still used today, we can logically and easily deduce that it means North, South, East, and West, meaning all over the earth.

Fall off the end of the earth?

Job 38:13 "That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?"

Jeremiah 16:19 "O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit."

Daniel 4:11 "The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:"

"Ends of the earth" refers to the whole earth. In context we can see this to be true. The Bible has always described the Earth spherically.


  1. "The four corners of the earth." The word translated “corners,” as in the phrase above, is the Hebrew word, KANAPH. Kanaph is translated in a variety of ways. However, it generally means extremity. It is translated “borders” in Numbers 15:38. In Ezekiel 7:2 it is translated “four corners” and again in Isaiah 11:12 “four corners.” Job 37:3 and 38:13 as “ends.”
    The Greek equivalent in Revelation 7:1 is gonia. The Greek meaning is perhaps more closely related to our modern divisions known as quadrants. Gonia literally means angles, or divisions. It is customary to divide a map into quadrants as shown by the four directions.
    Some have tried to ridicule the Bible to say that it teaches that the earth is square. The Scripture makes it quite clear that the earth is a sphere (Isaiah 40:22).
    Some have tried to say there are four knobs, or peaks on a round earth. Regardless of the various ways kanaph is translated, it makes reference to EXTREMITIES.
    The Greek equivalent in Revelation 7:1 is gonia. The Greek meaning is perhaps more closely related to our modern divisions known as quadrants. Gonia literally means angles, or divisions. It is customary to divide a map into quadrants as shown by the four directions. Some have tried to ridicule the Bible to say that it teaches that the earth is square. The Scripture makes it quite clear that the earth is a sphere (Isaiah 40:22).
    Some have tried to say there are four knobs, or peaks on a round earth. Regardless of the various ways kanaph is translated, it makes reference to EXTREMITIES.
    There are many ways in which God the Holy Spirit could have said corner. Any of the following Hebrew words could have been used:

    * Pinoh is used in reference to the cornerstone.
    * Paioh means “a geometric corner”
    * Ziovyoh means “right angle” or “corner”
    * Krnouth refers to a projecting corner.
    * Paamouth - If the Lord wanted to convey the idea of a square, four-cornered earth, the Hebrew word paamouth could have been used. Paamouth means square.

    Instead, the Holy Spirit selected the word kanaph, conveying the idea of extremity. It is doubtful that any religious Jew would ever misunderstand the true meaning of kanaph. For nearly 2,000 years, religious Jews have faced the city of Jerusalem three times daily and chanted the following prayer:

    Sound the great trumpet for our freedom,
    Raise the banner for gathering our exiles,
    And gather us together from THE FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH
    into our own land.

    The Book of Isaiah describes how the Messiah, the Root of Jesse, shall regather his people from the four corners of the earth. They shall come from every extremity to be gathered into Israel.

    "And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse,
    Who shall stand as a banner to the people;
    For the Gentiles shall seek Him,
    And His resting place shall be glorious."
    It shall come to pass in that day
    That the LORD shall set His hand again the second time
    To recover the remnant of His people who are left,
    From Assyria and Egypt,
    From Pathros and Cush,
    From Elam and Shinar,
    From Hamath and the islands of the sea.
    He will set up a banner for the nations,
    And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
    And gather together the dispersed of Judah
    (Isaiah 11:10-12, New King James Version)
    The Bible of course teaches the correct shape of the earth. Isaiah 40:22 says God sits above “the circle of the earth” (the Hebrew word for “circle” can also mean a “sphere”).
    Also, Luke 17:34-36 depicts Christ's Second Coming as happening while some are asleep at night and others are working at day-time activities in the field-an indication of a rotating earth with day and night at the same time.
    In the Old Testament, Job 26:7 explains that the earth is suspended in space, the obvious comparison being with the spherical sun and moon. [DD] A literal translation of Job 26:10 is "He described a circle upon the face of the waters, until the day and night come to an end." A spherical earth is also described in Isaiah 40:21-22 - "the circle of the earth."
    Proverbs 8:27 also suggests a round earth by use of the word circle (e.g., New King James Bible and New American Standard Bible). If you are overlooking the ocean, the horizon appears as a circle. This circle on the horizon is described in Job 26:10. The circle on the face of the waters is one of the proofs that the Greeks used for a spherical earth. Yet here it is recorded in Job, ages before the Greeks discovered it. Job 26:10 indicates that where light terminates, darkness begins. This suggests day and night on a spherical globe.

    The earliest of these flat-Earth promoters was the African Lactantius (AD 245-325), a professional rhetorician who converted to Christianity mid-life.
    He rejected all the Greek philosophers, and in doing so also rejected a spherical Earth. His views were considered heresy by the Church Fathers and his work was ignored until the Renaissance (at which time some humanists revived his writings as a model of good Latin, and of course, his flat Earth view also was revived).

  2. Brilliant and thorough, nice job Mary!

  3. (the Hebrew word for “circle” can also mean a “sphere”).

    No. It means circle. They have perfectly good words for "ball", "ball-shaped" and "spheroid" but they used "circle" instead. A circle is flat.

    1. The word used is circle because it was not referring to the Earth's shape, but rather the horizon that divides night and day.

    2. Show me past or present, where in the definition of circle say its flat?

    3. Draw a circle and think about it.

    4. "The word used is circle because it was not referring to the Earth's shape, but rather the horizon that divides night and day."

      Merely repeating someone else's bare assertion proves nothing.

    5. The word translated as "circle" in Isaiah 40:22 can also mean circuit. I believe Isaiah was saying that the Lord sits above the circuit/path of the earth. It has nothing to do with the earth being 2d or 3d, round or square. It has to do with the earth going around the sun or the sun going around the earth. The Bible beat Science to it again.

    6. Well. You should study Arabic. Because the verse you say about the flat earth Quran 88:17-20 says in to a better translation: "Then do they not look at the camels - how they are created? And at the sky - how it is raised? And at the mountains - how they are erected? And at the earth - how it is spread out?" Please, don't say stupidities, when everybody knows that flat earth was a European mediaeval concept

    7. Bats were also considered birds in Bible n still are. Don't say theyre not mammals (a made up word by m,an to conflict God. see my Google site.

    8. Earth is not flat, it is a rotating a sphere.

    9. Dee you are adding to Gods word as you see fit. It be better had you not been born than to do that. Research how NASA is a fake propaganda machine created and run by free masons and get back with us. The earth is flat is the face of the deep and is a circle as described in scripture not your lies and that that circle lies on the four cornered board that God WILL shake evil out of. Truth is stranger than fiction

    10. Pythagoras, Aristotle, and Eratosthenes put this argument to rest, if only at bare minimum from a pure mathematical standpoint. It's over. Let's just move to Cooperative Planetary Exploration

    11. you have the antartic circle I soppose and upon also means above in hebrew. so maybe he is sat above the antartic circle of the earth

    12. A "circle" is also what the circumference of a sphere is.

  4. A few questions to think about. Just curious.

    1. When you look down from out of space?

    2. What shape do we see? A square like the shape of the maps that have been used from the earliest of time or a circle?

    3. And when is a circle not a circle, what ever kind of circle it might be?

    I was amazed when I investigated this. It looks like that text where Isaiah claims that the earth is a circle was from at least 500 BC or older.

    Yet the first one of us in history to even consider that the earth was round was a Martin from Germany who was employed by the king of Portugal.

    He was a navigator and explorer who designed the first globe in something like 1500 in direct opposition to the science of that day and the Darwin teachings of that day of a flat earth.

    There is only one intact globe like this left today from him.

    He constructed the first globe including Africa without the Americas which were not discovered yet. Latter Columbus exploited the theories from this globe to explore a trade route to India.

    And of course it was confirmed when the first man to the moon looked at earth and discovered with his own eyes for certain that the earth appeared round when looking from space.

    4. Another question, who could Isaiah from the bible had known this some 2000 or more years before someone even dared to consider that the earth was round?

    5. How could he had known that?

    6. Nothing he wrote demonstrated that he studied the stars or knew anything about astronomy. So how?

    He claimed that he his message was from God multiple times in his book of Isaiah.

    7. If this teaching was put in the bible after science had made the modern discovery, then why are the original books of Isaish in Hebrew, a language unknown by the latter Catholic church and very difficult to learn stating the same thing? Why?

    8.It begs the question, if those words did not come from some type of Creator, looking down on the earth and seeing it as a circle, then how could Isaiah had known this?

    9. And where would he get the motivation to speak and teach and latter even publish the idea of a round earth, when it could look crazy to the world of people only making square maps?

    10. You don't have to answer every question, but one would really have to consider all these things. Don't you suppose?

    11. How can we be absolutely sure that a God does not exist?

    12. Have you personal knowledge of every corner of the universe? Have you personally been to each of the millions of planets and stars in the universe? Have you personal knowledge of what is out there?

    13. If you don't, how can you know for sure? Or any of us?

    14. Could he exist?

    1. "Yet the first one of us in history to even consider that the earth was round was a Martin from Germany who was employed by the king of Portugal."

      The ancient Greeks discovered the earth was a sphere a few centuries before Jesus was born.

    2. Pythagoras was the First Greek Round Earther. He got this logos from the east.
      The Jews have the oldest story of round earth.
      First orated before 1300bc is common acceptance.
      I could argue that 2300bc is more likely.
      The Land of Uz is and was a Real Place. Job a real Person in a place in Time.

      The Author of Job is a Jewish Prophet Poet Philosopher, Carpenter.

      He was teaching round earth long before the Greeks.

      I wrote a book about Pythagoras once.

    3. Nate: What a bunch of lies Jon LOL....He got his logos from the east yup i bet :P The authorship is agreed by most scholars that it was written by an anonymous Israelite in around the period between 7th and 4th centuries BCE. There is no where in the bible that subscribes a true sphere of the earth, unless you take it out of context and make it look like it.Isaiah: "Circle of the earth" or Job: "Earth Hanging from nothing" does not count.

    4. Brilliant unknown person you are very correct. Very good questions.

    5. gracelandtm, Did you not read what unknown said? He said that when you look at the earth from space, does it appear to be a circle or square?

    6. Jon Sellers, out of curiosity, but where exactly IS the Land of Uz anyway? Also, when did Job live, how was he related to Adam, was he also related to Melchizedek, and did they both live at the same time?



    9. The problem seems to be that some people, (when reading the Bible), do not understand what a metaphor is, so they take most stuff literally. The Bible is loaded with metaphors. The Bible does NOT affirm the shape of the earth
      with 100% certainty (flat vs spherical), except maybe only in the eyes of some literalists. Several words or phrases: "pillars", "foundation", "firmament", "circle", "molten glass", "immovable", etc., might possibly not be meant literally(?). What boggles my mind is: WHY do they argue about it, as it makes NO difference which way they believe it to be.

      One "firmament" definition is "vast expanse". How vast? It doesn't say. So, even if there were a "dome", how do we know it isn't a few trillion miles high and wide? We don't. The circumference of a sphere is a "circle" ... That "pillar" of basic geometric wisdom is a proven fact, and is a "foundation" of my understanding regarding circles and spheres. My position on that is totally "immovable".

      (See what I mean FE people? Jesus said "I am the door.."*.
      So, do you therefore believe he also has hinges too, and is mounted in a door frame.?

      Pay absolutely no attention to the way the sun rises vertically up over the horizon in the mornings, then sets vertically below the horizon in the evenings, till it's TOTALLY GONE. Little by little, without changing size, it appears and disappears over the curvature of the globe, vertically, at sunrise and sunset, in just a few minutes!
      If the earth were flat, a sunrise would begin with seeing a complete smaller distant
      ball, enlarging in appearance size until noon, then slowly shrinking in appearance size somewhat until sunset in the evening. It would NEVER appear as 1/4 of a ball, 1/3 of a ball, 1/2 of a ball, etc, unless it was partially hidden below the horizon by the earth's curvature. . It would (when visible), always be a 100% complete round ball in a flat earth scenario. The sun rises and sets vertically over the viewable horizon line. If you haven't ever watched it rise or set over an unobstructed horion (like the ocean), then you should. The earth is definitely a sphere.
      (You're welcome).

    10. BONJOUR
      Toute la GENESE, mais aussi les autres textes de la Bible sont une parabole , elle traite de l'évolution de la conscience de l 'homme. Elle ne parle pas de la création de la terre et des cieux . Elle parle des différentes vibrations de vie de l'homme .cordiales salutations Michel
      voir mon site

  5. Good points Unknown,

    I just wanted to quickly point out that in point 13 they do know.

    It is the Christian position that God has revealed Himself to all mankind so that we can know for certain who He is. Those who deny His existence are suppressing the truth in unrighteousness to avoid accountability to God. It is the ultimate act of rebellion against Him and reveals the professing atheist's contempt toward God.

    1. Where is your evidence of this God, and His self-revelation?

    2. Through God's natural and special revelations.(Romans 1:18-23) You see, the revelation is not something you can escape. Even if you deny a special revelation, like the Bible you are still in the world of natural revelation.

      "Man was created as the image of God (Gen. 1:16-27) and thus cannot escape the face of God. There is no environment where man can flee to escape the revelational presence of God (Ps. 139:8). God’s natural revelation goes out to the end of the world (Ps. 19:1-4) and all people see His glory (Ps. 97:6). Therefore, even when living in open (idolatrous) rebellion, men are in the condition of “knowing God” (Rom. 1:21)—the living and true God, not merely “a god.” Christ enlightens every man (John 1:9), and so Calvin declares: For we know that men have this unique quality above the other animals, that they are endowed with reason and intelligence and that they bear the distinction between right and wrong engraved in their conscience. Thus there is no man to whom some awareness of the eternal light does not penetrate...the common light of nature, a far lowlier thing than faith (Calvin’s Commentaries, tr. T.H.L. Parker; Grand Rapids: Eerdmans 1959)." ~Bahnsen, Greg; Booth, Robert (2011-03-03). Always Ready: Directions for Defending the Faith

    3. Look in the mirror if you want evidence of the creator. Look at the sky, look at the animals, the trees, the plants, the earth...we call it creation. If you need more evidence than this to confirm the existence of God then nothing will ever satisfy you. As D.A.N said (as the bible says), you suppress the truth in unrighteousness to avoid having to stop sinning.

  6. Dan,I'm pretty sure, though I suppose that I could be wrong on this one, that a circle is NOT a sphere or even spheroidal in shape. In fact I'm also pretty sure that a circle is, by definition, flat. Something which is circular might not be flat, but a circle is. Therefore we the only logical conclusions we can reach are that there are no references to a spherical Earth in the Bible, that there are numerous references to a flat Earth, and that the Bible is therefore wrong on that point(and many others).

    And Mary, you might consider going back to history class. Flat Earth "theories"(though they were never called that) go much further back than you suggest.

    1. Except that the verses referenced here aren't talking about the shape of the Earth, but rather the shape of the horizon i.e. divides light and dark.

      Also, I have a question for your brilliant mind to answer: What do you call the outside of a sphere?

      One final point (and this applies to J.C. "Secret Muslim" Birthner also as they mentioned a "word for ball": Did you know a ball and a sphere, scientifically speaking are not the same thing? Also, ancient Hebrew was not designed with modern english nor modern science in mind. Have a nice life!

    2. Instead of saying, "I'm pretty sure", why don't you just look it up?

      Merriam Webster Dictionary includes the following in the definition of a circle: archaic : the orbit of a celestial body (Hmm, could He have been talking about the "circuit"/"orbit" that the earth makes?

      d : a circle formed on the surface of a sphere by the intersection of a plane that passes through it

      a : cycle, round (Hmm, there it is again)

      How about

      the area within which something acts, exerts influence, etc.; realm; sphere:

      to move in a circle or circuit around; rotate or revolve around:
      verb (used without object), circled, circling.

      to move in a circle or circuit:

      How about good ole Wikipedia?

      The word circle derives from the Greek κίρκος/κύκλος (kirkos/kuklos), itself a metathesis of the Homeric Greek κρίκος (krikos), meaning "hoop" or "ring".[2] The origins of the words circus and circuit are closely related.
      The circle has been known since before the beginning of recorded history. Natural circles would have been observed, such as the Moon, Sun, and a short plant stalk blowing in the wind on sand, which forms a circle shape in the sand. The circle is the basis for the wheel, which, with related inventions such as gears, makes much of modern machinery possible. In mathematics, the study of the circle has helped inspire the development of geometry, astronomy, and calculus.


      How about ancient hebrew .org?

      The Bible talks about the heaven being spread out like a canopy or tent...

      Star (כוכב kokav, Strong's #3556): We of course know that stars are extremely large balls of gas trillions and trillions of miles out in space but, how did the Ancient Hebrew perceive the stars. When reading the Bible it must be from their perspective not ours. The Hebrews, being nomads, lived in black goat hair tents. The hair fabric had pinholes of light and when looking up at the tent roof it looked just like the night sky. This is alluded to in Isaiah 40:22 - [God] stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.


      The point is, there are many valid ideas about what the word "circle" meant. We can't pick and choose the version that makes the scripture say what we want it to say.

      Flat Earthers also like to use scriptures that talk about the 4 corners of the earth and take it to mean that the earth is flat. But to say the earth has 4 corners, implies a square or rectangle. So which is it, a square, rectangle or circle??

      If you can't come up with facts, then you can not state that everything that doesn't go along with your Flat Earth "theory" is fake or a lie.

      Yes, there is a better word for ball in Ancient Hebrew, it's Dur (דור). But how do we know what "context" He meant in "the circle of the earth?" Did you know the earth is actually oblong and not a circle? The middle is circular, while the each end of the poles is bulged out a bit. It's not quiet egg shaped, but it's not a perfect circle either.

      One last thing. The Bible states that heaven is His throne and earth is His footstool. It also states that He is the vine and we are the branches.

      Do you take that literally too? Is heaven shaped like a throne and the earth like a footstool? Are we really not in Christ's image, because He looks like a green vine?

      Come on.

  7. 2. God should have known the Earth was not a circle but a sphere, so why didn't he specify that it was a sphere and not a circle.

    And if the original word can be translated as circle or sphere, why does the word 'circle' appear in all the translations of the Bible.

    3. You are incorrect. Pythagoras in the 5th century BC believed the Earth to be spherical, so did many Greeks and also the notion of the Earth being spherical in its form can be traced back to the Egyptians too. So if even if the Bible states that the Earth was spherical, which it doesn't. That could have been the influence of Greek or Egyptian thought and not miraculous foreknowledge before science many years later confirmed this as fact.

    4. See above many ancient Greek believed the Earth was spherical. The Bible plagiarises from many cultures and earlier religions.

    5. Many people knew that in the times that Isiah and the book of Job was wrote.

    6. Again see above.

    7. Science didn't make the discovery. It confirmed the fact. Again see above.

    8. See above.

    9. It didn't sound crazy to the ancient Greeks or Egyptians which the authors of Isiah and Job plagiarised the idea from.

    10. See above.

    11. How can we be absolutely sure that the invisible omnipotent omniscient, benevolent and perfect flying spaghetti monster does not exist? But that's no foundation of reason to believe in it.

    12 & 13.. Are you saying that before you have ultimate knowledge of everything, (which of course we will never have) we are not allowed to state that something is not true? In that case, I believe that Adolf Hitler was incredibly misunderstood and was actually an angel from God sent to Earth like Jesus to teach us the truth. Do you disagree with me? Then don't, because before you know everything about the entire universe then you cannot be absolutely certain that what I state about Hitler is false. Do you see my point?

    13. Probably not, because if this cowardly contradictory incompetent invisible deity did exist, he seems very shy to have not shown himself for the last 4000 years.

    1. Bahahahahahahha you have some whacked out theories there bro. In particular the part about how you think Job plagiarised an idea from the Greeks or Egyptians, when the book was a) an unknown author and b) written far earlier than either the Greek or Egyptian civilizations existed.

      Again, NONE of the Bible verses refer to the shape of the Earth but to the shape of the horizon (the division between day and night / light and dark.

      And finally, in regard to you Hitler assertions, I know you were being facitious and sarcastic, but we have documented evidence about Hitler and his life and times. Also Hitler never once identified himself as an angel nor did he claim to be sent from God. In fact, the first instance of this account is July 31, 2012 at 1:47 PM by yourself.

    2. Oh and while I think of it, a sphere becomes a circle when viewed in 2-D. Have a nice life.

    3. and a circle becomes a straight line when viewed in 1-D. That does not equate to a circle being a straight line.


  8. hello, i'd like to provide two links for consideration, they are from wikipedia since it has the easiest access.

    1. what is a circle and what is a sphere:
    A sphere (from Greek σφαῖρα — sphaira, "globe, ball"[1]) is a perfectly round geometrical object in three-dimensional space, such as the shape of a round ball. Like a circle, which is in two dimensions, a sphere is the set of points which are all the same distance r from a given point in space. This distance r is known as the "radius" of the sphere, and the given point is known as the center of the sphere. The maximum straight distance through the sphere is known as the "diameter". It passes through the center and is thus twice the radius.
    In mathematics, a careful distinction is made between the sphere (a two-dimensional surface embedded in three-dimensional Euclidean space) and the ball (the interior of the three-dimensional sphere).
    According to this, a sphere is a 3 dimensional circle, much like a pyramid is a three dimensional triangle (usually). It has all the features of a circle but is elevated to a three dimensional plane. It goes as far to say that the sphere is strictly differentiated from a ball, as some of the above guests have suggested. In theory and in practice, seeing a sphere from a certain angles can in fact appear as a 2 dimensional circle, just like the pyramids and many other 3d animated and not objects.
    Naturally, arguing if the bible means circle or sphere is like saying a painter doesn't really paint portraits of people, since a person is 3 dimensional yet the person in the portrait is only 2 dimensional. What difference does it make; None. Why don't painters paint 3 dimensional; They do! But they started doing so much much much later, when they had the sufficient knowledge to do so. Why should writing a book any different;
    2. did people really believed earth to be flat;
    The myth of the Flat Earth is the modern misconception that the prevailing cosmological view during the Middle Ages saw the Earth as flat, instead of spherical. The idea seems to have been widespread during the first half of the 20th century, so that the Members of the Historical Association in 1945 stated that:
    "The idea that educated men at the time of Columbus believed that the earth was flat, and that this belief was one of the obstacles to be overcome by Columbus before he could get his project sanctioned, remains one of the hardiest errors in teaching."
    During the early middle Ages, virtually all scholars maintained the spherical viewpoint first expressed by the Ancient Greeks. By the 14th century, belief in a flat earth among the educated was nearly nonexistent. However, the exterior of the famous triptych The Garden of Earthly Delights by Hieronymus Bosch is a Renaissance example in which a disc-shaped earth is shown floating inside a transparent sphere.
    For further read the above links. To my mind what you are arguing here is so outdated as is this misconception. For example Gallileo didn't have an issue with earth's sphericity, it was already well established that the earth had a 3 dimensional circular - sphere shape. His findings had to do with discrediting geocentric, meaning he was the first to discover the earth was not the center of the universe, but rather that the sun is only the center of our solar system.
    Also if you really have the time to investigate, I'd suggest digging out some linguistic articles. It appears that the hebrew word for sphere was at the time of Issaiah the same as the word for round (chuwg is the word used for circle, roundabout, sphere, circuit, something that has circular boundaries) but it doesn't make clear if it's flat or 3 dimensional or digital or made of glass or anything else for that matter. All that is clear is that it indicates a circular pattern, like a circular camp or a circular dome or a circular arch, but it does not say in any way what is the exact shape of it.

    1. For one the earth is not perfectly round.

    2. Nice Straw man, and false dilemma fallacy. There are more definitions for sphere then that, like "celestial spheres" and wiki can be updated by anyone, especially predominately atheists who wish to find fault with Scripture. Use actual sources, instead of pseudo sources, go to a library.

  9. supplementary to my above comment (not enough characters:P) please allow me to add my position:
    1. i am not saying that the bible provides an exact describtion of our planetary system, only that taking account of contemporary hebrew language system it provides a roughly correct or at least not complete incorrect one.

    2. that no educated christian or jewish ever believed the world to be flat after reading the bible.

    3. that flat earth was never an issue since 5BC and it was only a publicity trick pulled by a colombus fanboy back when he was writing his biography and tried to demonized colombus' competitors.

    I look forward for your insight, have a good day (it's only 10:00 pm here :p)

    1. I will refute your 2nd point. All the persons below were educated christians and believed a flat earth model BECAUSE of Scripture.

      From wikipedia:

      Diodorus of Tarsus (d. 394) may have argued for a flat Earth based on scriptures; however, Diodorus' opinion on the matter is known to us only by a criticism of it by Photius. Severian, Bishop of Gabala (d. 408), wrote that the Earth is flat and the sun does not pass under it in the night, but "travels through the northern parts as if hidden by a wall". The Egyptian monk Cosmas Indicopleustes (547) in his Topographia Christiana, where the Covenant Ark was meant to represent the whole universe, argued on theological grounds that the Earth was flat, a parallelogram enclosed by four oceans.

      In his Homilies Concerning the Statutes St. John Chrysostom (344–408) explicitly espoused the idea, based on his reading of Scripture, that the Earth floated on the waters gathered below the firmament, and St. Athanasius (c. 293 – 373) expressed similar views in Against the Heathen.

      A very recent essay by Leone Montagnini, discussing the question of the shape of the Earth from the origins to the late Antiquity, has shown that the Fathers of the Church shared different approaches that paralleled their overall philosophical and theological visions. Those of them who were more close to Platonic visions, like Origen, shared peacefully the geosphericism. A second tradition, including Basil, Ambrose and Augustine, but also Philoponus, accepted the idea of the round Earth and the radial gravity, but in a critical way. In particular they pointed out a number of doubts about the physical reasons of the radial gravity, and hesitated in accepting the physical reasons proposed by Aristotle or Stoicism. However, a "flattist" approach was more or less shared by all the Fathers coming from the Syriac area, who were more inclined to follow the letter of the Old Testament. Diodorus, Severian, and Cosmas Indicopleustes, but also Chrysostom, belonged just to this latter tradition.

    2. The fact that you have to use Catholics in your argument makes it a moot point. They "forbid marriage and abstain from meat" see Timothy 4:3 The apostle Paul called them "doctrines of demons"

  10. The language is consistent with what we knew of the flat earth model. There were 4 corners with pillars in each corner holding up the ceiling or heavens. In genesis God stands up this ceiling when he separates the waters below from the waters above. They didn't understand where else rain could have come from. Even in flat earth model it was still thought that the Earth was a circle. You could tell during eclipses and they most likely guessed that from looking at all other stars and planets that revolved around the earth.

    BTW... Anyone who claims knowledge that could not have been possessed during the days of the desert nomads needs to understand that the Bible has grown over time. Constantly changing and re-changing to meet the needs of the people of that time.

    1. You might not understand about literary devices then.

      "From the rising of the sun to its setting, let the name of Yahweh be praised." ~Psalm 113:3

      Do you believe they were talking about the sun actually rising? I am sure you will admit to seeing plenty of sunrises, but you don't see us claiming you believe it actually does.

      >>Constantly changing and re-changing to meet the needs of the people of that time.

      Are you absolutely certain of that claim? If so, how are you certain?

    2. So the bible is not literal? What parts? All of them?
      Why does the bible describe the earth as a circle, and not a sphere? Also: The four corners of the earth you say are North South East West. But the can't be a East or West if the earth is spherical. Face it, you are using apologetic bullshit to excuse the errors of the bible.

    3. >>So the bible is not literal?

      No! That would be silly. There are OBVIOUS parables, hyperbole, and poetry that would be silly to be taken literally. It should not be taken literally, but literary. Howard Huge difference.

      >>Why does the bible describe the earth as a circle, and not a sphere?

      Because sphere was created in 1530s, from the restored spelling of Middle English spere (c.1300). You cannot fault Scripture for modern terminology silly.

      >>The four corners of the earth you say are North South East West. But [there] can't be a East or West if the earth is spherical.

      So there is no east or west? Bwahahahah. THIS is the most brilliant thing I have heard from an Atheist. Sir you're going up on the board. Thanks for the smiles. :)

    4. This comment has been removed by the author.

    5. 1. The bible wasn't written in English, so your 2nd point is irrelevant.
      2. The Hebrews, at the time, had a word for ball ('dwr') which would adequately describe the notion of a sphere. It was ACTUALLY used in Isaiah 22:18. They used 'chwg' to describe a flat disk and actually chose this word in Isaiah 40:22. the other passages reinforce said notion of a flat earth.

    6. It has never generation of vipers. The. Apostolic doctrine is the same as it ever was. "Christ died for the sins of the world was buried and rose again the 3rd day according to the (Old Testament) scriptures". 1 Cor. 15:3-8

  11. This comment has been removed by the author.

    1. How do you know your reasoning is valid without God or being viciously circular?

  12. Chuwg is used for heaven.
    Atheists admit that the ancients thought heaven was rounded. Therefore contrary to the atheist lie-chuwg can also mean spherical by the atheists own admission that heaven was rounded.

    For thick clouds swirl about him, and he cannot see us.
    He is way up there, walking on the vault (chuwg) of heaven.’

    Atheists are great liars!!!

    1. Therefore contrary to the atheist lie-chuwg can also mean spherical ... For thick clouds swirl about him, and he cannot see us.
      He is way up there, walking on the vault (chuwg) of heaven.’

      CHWG means circle, as something inscribed with a compass. The word for a ball or sphere is DUR. The word for vault or firmament is RQIO.
      Where you allude to Job 22.14, the verse curiously enough where he cannot see us for the clouds, the word CHWG is used with the word for walking, H'LEK, in this case ITH'LEK, 'He walks'. (CHWG SHMIM ITHELK) In other words, he walks around the sky (SHMIM) as you or I would walk around on the ground (CHWG ARTZ ITHELK).
      The word RQIO, or firmament, is not in this verse.


  13. The Bible of course teaches the correct shape of the earth. Isaiah 40:22 says God sits above “the circle of the earth” (the Hebrew word for “circle” can also mean a “sphere”).

    No, the word CHWG means circle, like something inscribed with a compass, e.g., a plate. The word for sphere or ball is DUR.

    1. No, the word CHWG means circle, like something inscribed with a compass, e.g., a plate. The word for sphere or ball is DUR.

      The word DUR does not indicate sphere any more than the word used in Isaiah 40:22. DUR is used in Isaiah 29:3:

      "And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee."

      Obviously, the soldiers could not camp in the shape of a sphere around the city! The word DUR is making a statement about a circular pattern.

    2. ob 38 New International Version (NIV)
      The Lord Speaks

      38 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:

      2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
      with words without knowledge?
      3 Brace yourself like a man;
      I will question you,
      and you shall answer me.

      4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
      Tell me, if you understand.
      5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
      Who stretched a measuring line across it?
      6 On what were its footings set,
      or who laid its cornerstone—
      7 while the morning stars sang together
      and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?

      8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
      when it burst forth from the womb,
      9 when I made the clouds its garment
      and wrapped it in thick darkness,
      10 when I fixed limits for it
      and set its doors and bars in place,
      11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
      here is where your proud waves halt’?

      12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
      or shown the dawn its place,
      13 that it might take the earth by the edges
      and shake the wicked out of it?
      14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
      its features stand out like those of a garment.
      15 The wicked are denied their light,
      and their upraised arm is broken.

      16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
      or walked in the recesses of the deep?
      17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
      Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
      18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
      Tell me, if you know all this.

      19 “What is the way to the abode of light?
      And where does darkness reside?
      20 Can you take them to their places?
      Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
      21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
      You have lived so many years!

      22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
      or seen the storehouses of the hail,
      23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
      for days of war and battle?
      24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
      or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
      25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
      and a path for the thunderstorm,
      26 to water a land where no one lives,
      an uninhabited desert,
      27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
      and make it sprout with grass?
      28 Does the rain have a father?
      Who fathers the drops of dew?
      29 From whose womb comes the ice?
      Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
      30 when the waters become hard as stone,
      when the surface of the deep is frozen?

      31 “Can you bind the chains[b] of the Pleiades?
      Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
      32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons[c]
      or lead out the Bear[d] with its cubs?
      33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
      Can you set up God’s[e] dominion over the earth?

      34 “Can you raise your voice to the clouds
      and cover yourself with a flood of water?
      35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
      Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?
      36 Who gives the ibis wisdom[f]
      or gives the rooster understanding?[g]
      37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
      Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
      38 when the dust becomes hard
      and the clods of earth stick together?

      39 “Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
      and satisfy the hunger of the lions
      40 when they crouch in their dens
      or lie in wait in a thicket?
      41 Who provides food for the raven
      when its young cry out to God
      and wander about for lack of food?

    3. The cross of Christ is perfection to those that actually see with the spirit. God is awesome.

  14. I am a simple person with no degrees, but thank God that he is not a respecter of anyone person he give light to the simple minded also, for even a uneducated person such as my self can see that God's more real than anyone else in the face of this planet.The word of God needs no one to defend it ,he defends himself in the word which is found in the bible. Here are somethings to think about. How come their were hundreds of people whom have left testimonies of their relationship with God. beginning with Moses all the way to John and Paul and all the other who have claim to have known Christ personally. Many of them left written accounts of what they knew, saw and experience. But yet evolution has no one not even one who can testify of any type of experience regarding any type of met- amorphous. explain did one met -amorphous accrued or did many metamorphoses accrued at one time or at different time and places and why didn't anyone leave any type of writing or document of what someone else had seen or experience. And why are people not evolving any more and when did they stop.
    or is the plain truth, is that you choose not to believe because you don't want to give an account to anyone regarding your wrong and sinful action in life, do you really just want to have no accountability for your choices. Here is something to think about if I convince people that 2 + 2 = 5 not 4 dose that make it true. Even if I convince the world, the truth will still stand firm no matter what i tell the people. I can not change truth just because i choose not to believe it. At the end truth will always prevail. I rather take it by faith that God exist than to find out at the end that I was wrong in believing a false understanding. Since God is real i have noting to loss because i have rested in his word and in his truth.But if I'm wrong I have
    lost nothing, I'll just go back to the ground from which I came. But if your wrong, which you are you have rejected the gift of God which is eternal salvation,life everlasting with Him in a perfect place where there would be no more hurt,pain or sorrow; regretfully, so much more. you my dear friend are playing Russian Ru-let, not only would I not gamble in such a game, I don't want to gamble with my families when it comes to such a dangerous game call life.

    1. Hi Lu. I just wanted to point out that God is not based on odds, but assurance. Romans 1:18-23 attests to that. God indeed had revealed Himself to all mankind. A good article explaining this was written by our friend Sye, HERE. It's worth reading. Blessings

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    1. We are the center of the universe. As, we are the only ones here.

  16. Back to the circle debate. A "circle" is an enclosed geometric shape with the edges, or borders, equidistant from the origin, or center, of the circle. A "disc" is a circle but flat. A Sphere is a circle, but in three dimensions, meaning it's made out of multiple complete boundaries which are circles.

  17. I'm going to spell it out for everyone here, Yes god exists in a form but the christian form the islam form those versions of god do not exist. God is not a person or being per se but is actually the collective consciousness and essence of all existence in the universe living or not. Why do our brain cells look like the cosmic web? simple we were created in his image not our physical image but our minds our minds are what makes us function! its what makes us work as humans! we were created in his image our minds are modeled off the structure of the universe. i believe that the rapture is misinterpreted its not us literally flying up to heaven but more of ascending to a higher form of consciousness. science and religion are intertwined all religion and science route from one soul purpose.... to truly understand our existence and the universe itself. I am a New Age spiritualist and am part of a psychic bloodline i was born into a family of wiccans and yet i was born on a date intertwined with holy symbolism multiple psychics have told me that i have been blessed by the angels and am an indigo child. i was born on 11/12/1995 iam a millenial i was born on a Sunday 3 days late on the 11th month of the year 7th day of week 3 is a trinity number and 11 is a master number in spirituality. i was born right handed even if both my parents are left handed. My mother was a uterine cancer survivor so i wasnt even supposed to be born so yes i'm an only child and the only one of my geneation gifted with these abilities which are passed down from both sides of my family most notably from my native american and irish roots, Cherokee to be exact. When i'm with christians i somehow feel a bit at home but at the same time i fel discomfort like if something about it was dreadfully wrong or there was more to this religion that they were not getting and wanted to help them but instead i just hold it in and be humble and polite. I have friends who are christian and even are the open minded types that think about my views and how they fit in with theirs yet it is very hard to find more good friends like that these days. people who can understand eachother and accept all types of faith even if its just a little to fit in with their foundations. New Age Spirituality is an Esoteric religious movement we seek a cosmic christ that will unite the world by finding the true foundation in which all science and religion come from and intertwine at. i continually seek all the secrets of this world and universe everyday to get all the info i know now. this info i shared is just a fraction of what i know once i get more info i will write my first book on this kind of stuff. to get the info i have now i suffered through conflict of faiths and nearly turning to atheism but what kept me from that was hope and it paid off i found New Age spirituality in my senior year of highschool. in college on my free time i studied the paranormal and occult to delve into the typically deemed taboo secrets of this world. heres the thing wherever there is light there is darkness wherever there is darkness there is light. this world is not black and white its grey but if you look into the complexity of it its a rainbow a rainbow of not just colors but of shades too. this universe is beautiful and scary at the same time but its exactly that is what makes us curious about it and want to learn more about it so it doesnt seem so scary to us because then we understand it. I have no dislike for any religion or science. what i do dislike is closed mindedness, fear, hatred, and ignorance.

    1. BONJOUR, beau parcours . La Bible est codée, il ne faut pas la prendre littérallement .
      Tout est vibrations dans l’univers, il est question de "roues" dans de nombreuses civilisations. On parle de roue ou cycle de vie , voir la rota , cela ne veut pas dire sphère , une onde n'est pas une sphère.

      Ces vibrations forment des cercles, comme un caillou jeté dans l’eau . Les vibrations supérieures sont celles de l’Esprit. Facile de comprendre cette parabole, ce n’est pas un lieu , c’est une vibration supérieure. Inutile de chercher si c’est un cercle une sphère ou un carré ….Lorsque l’homme regarde l’horizon de toutes part , en tournant sur lui-même il aperçoit un cercle , ce cercle signifie donc la totalité de ses perceptions ou de son champ de vision…
      Job 26 : 10 Il a tracé un cercle (Chuwg) à la surface des eaux, Comme limite entre la lumière et les ténèbres.
      C'est un exemple indiquant que la Bible est codée. En effet, le ciel et les eaux sont la même chose, des vibrations ou ondes, et il y a des vibrations lumineuses , celles d'en haut et des vibrations inférieures celles d'en bas . Nous ne pouvons pas aller au delà des vibrations correspondantes à notre propre évolution personnelle, c'est pourquoi il y a une séparation entre les eaux spirituelles d'en haut et celles d'en bas.Mais ceci concerne notre propre état intérieur , il ne s'agit pas du cosmos....Voir mon site

      un autre exemple

      Psaumes 84. 11 Mieux vaut un jour dans tes parvis que mille ailleurs; Je préfère me tenir sur le seuil de la maison de mon Dieu, Plutôt que d'habiter (Duwr) sous les tentes de la méchanceté.
      duwr : est le mot qui est traduit par cercle ou balle , mais l'idée est plutôt habiter , comme dans le cercle familiale.

      Ce verset comme tous les autres sont des paraboles , il ne peut être plus claire , il est bien question encore une fois de notre temple intérieur….

      La terre c’est notre habitation, notre ESPRIT habite une terre , qui l’enveloppe.

    2. Thanks for that great explanation, and I agree.

      I try to explain this way:

      Is the Bible to be taken literally?

      We get accused of that all the time. Just remember, there are OBVIOUS parables, hyperbole, and poetry that would be silly to be taken literally. Scripture should not be taken literally, but literary. Howard Huge difference. Written as a historical narrative, things are spelled out clearly. There was certainly Adam, Eve, Noah who lived to be 900, Jesus Christ, talking donkeys, etc. Absolutely. Nothing needs to be "interpreted", just translated from the original two languages.


      Merci pour cette excellente explication, et je suis d'accord, même en français.

      J'essaie d'expliquer de cette façon:

      La Bible doit-elle être prise à la lettre?

      Nous sommes accusés de cela tout le temps. Rappelez-vous juste qu'il y a des paraboles, des hyperboles et des poèmes qui seraient stupides à prendre au pied de la lettre. L'Écriture ne devrait pas être prise littéralement, mais littéraire. Howard Huge différence. Écrit comme un récit historique, les choses sont clairement énoncées. Il y avait certainement Adam, Eve, Noé qui a vécu jusqu'à 900 ans, Jésus-Christ, qui parlait des ânes, etc. Absolument. Rien n'a besoin d'être "interprété", juste traduit des deux langues originales. Bénédictions

  18. conflict and contradiction are always commonplace yet underneath it all is a meaning that connects them both together despite the surface contradiction. its when people blind themselves about that understanding that it leads to conflict and war. in orde to understand everything you must understand both the negative and positive both light and darkness only then can you understand it all and be impartial to others. for better or for worse we must all accept eachother and ourselves for who we are regardless. ignorance, hatred, fear, closed mindedness, all these keep us away from being one with god. One with god is one with nature and existence itself, reality is only a concept an illusion reality doesnt truly exist it only exists because we say it does because we define what reality is by what we think is true or right. true and right are only mere concepts vague ones at best and usually defined by the individual as reality so could all of us be stuck in our own little reality? our own little closed minded world? All alone? is that what you want? thats not what i want. what i want is a world where we can all live in peacefully to gather all into one in a place where all is one and one is all where we all exist as individuals and all exist as a single familial entity. where we can all be ourselves without ridicule or shame where we can all love eachother for who we really are.

    1. >> its when people blind themselves about that understanding that it leads to conflict and war.

      You're speaking into a mirror here. The Bible is very clear in it's description of you.

      "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." ~ 1 John 2:22

      "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." ~1 John 4:3

      "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." ~1 John 2:18

      They will have the heart they wish to have, just like you. God gives them over to THEIR desire to reject Him. Plain and simple. If you accept Christ, it is because God has honored your desires and pulled that deceitfully wicked heart (Jeremiah 17:9) away from you, as you begged Him to. (Psalm 51:17)

      In that same breath, the Bible describes people as goats or sheep, and nowhere in the Bible do goats turn into sheep. (Matthew 25:32) Christ died for, and we preach to, the rebellious sheep. Just like goats, the deniers seek to devour everything. Maybe that is why the Bible describes deniers, like yourself, as antichrists.

      The most important question here is, HOW DO YOU KNOW? Which one? We find a reality in which God exists, you, on the other hand find a reality where that is not necessarily the case.

      You see, in our reality, we can attribute things to God whom we know exists, you cannot. For example, if someone asks if X is "good," we can make this determination by seeing whether or not it comports with God's revealed character according to our reality. You, necessarily have another standard for goodness in your version of reality. Both cannot be "true" at the same time and in the same way.

      So when I, for example, say that worshiping idols is bad, and you say that it is not bad, how do you determine which is the correct answer since we appeal to different realities?

      How do you know whose reality is the right reality?

      Also, is it absolutely true that "true and right are only mere concepts vague ones at best and usually defined by the individual"? If so, HOW do you KNOW it's true? Or, is your positions mere vague concepts defined by you? If not, why not? I have so many more questions, but we can begin here.

  19. Why do some people still believe in a flat earth?
    Flat Earth

  20. It is that they "know" the truth in unrighteousness. KJV. They know. But very good point. This is a spiritual creation and making of our God, not a physical one.

    1. What are you referring to when you say "This is a spiritual creation and making of our God, not a physical one"?

  21. It is interesting to see so many people debating between a two-dimensional shape (circle) and a three-dimensional shape (sphere), and completely miss the forest for the trees. What any teenage knows about geometry should render this speculation moot: a point is one-dimensional, and shapes like squares, triangles, and circles are two-dimensional, while other shapes like cubes, pyramids, and spheres are three-dimensional. Our earth is clearly three-dimensional. Proof: have your kid dig a hole in the yard. The earth is clearly three-dimensional. At the very least, flat-earthers would have to admit that the earth is *at least a shallow cylinder (aka disc)*, and yet bible translations say "circle", which it is most evidently *not*. No one questions if "circle" can, or should be, translated as "disc", which does not have the specific property of being necessarily two-dimensional.

    If flat-earthers *do* come to the consensus that the earth is a disc, then you had better elect Terry Pratchett as your patron saint, or high prophet, or whatever honorific your particular sect bestows upon particularly gifted visionaries of your creed.

    But, then again, everyone could simply employ their innate faculties of rational thought and reason, and actually *observe* the world in which they live. Living on a disc could never account for many phenomena that we hardly even consider because we see them everyday: the coriolis effect, the sun's "setting" as it slowly sinks below the horizon, the waxing and waning phases of the moon, the shadow of the earth on the moon during an eclipse. Need I go on? But I must point out that the sheer magnitude of a conspiracy of a flat earth, including the massive number of people who would have access to this information as employees, contractors, etc, etc, involved in such a deception, yet not *one single leak* from these sources has surfaced, employs Occam's razor so deftly that the blade of this undeniability decapitates the flat-earth-conspiracy beast before it can take a single step.

    Friends, all you have to do is *think*!

    1. That is not what people are debating. They are arguing about words. The shape of a ball is a circle. Here is Sheikh Ibn Bâz’s fatwâ on the matter:
      According to the people of knowledge the Earth is round. Indeed, Ibn Hazm and other scholars have declared that there is consensus on this matter among the people of knowledge This means that all of the surface of the Earth is connected together so that the form of the planet is like a sphere. Nevertheless, Allah has spread out the Earth's surface in relation to us, and He has placed upon it firm mountains, the seas, and life as a mercy for us. For this reason, Allah said: "And (do they not look) at the Earth, how it was spread out flat (sutihat)." [Sûrah al-Ghâshiyah:20] Therefore, the Earth has been made flat for us in regards to our relationship to it to facilitate our lives upon it and our comfort. The fact that it is round does not prevent that its surface has been made flat for us. This is because something that is round and very large, then its surface will become very vast or broad, having a flat appearance to those who are upon it." So apparently it is in the Qur'an but not the Bible my Muslim "friend". Qur'an cannot alter the Word of the Bible ever.


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