During the time that I was in the Navy, I saw many wonderful things in the ocean. I enjoyed watching the hammer heads search for prey. I saw the huge turtles dive deep out of sight. Wales were everywhere we went and I frequently saw them doing various things with grace and ease. I forgot the name but I really enjoyed at night the phosphorous illumination of the ocean churned up by our screw, 'Bio luminescent plankton' I believe is the name. The most enjoyment I received was from the very quick and agile dolphins, I would watch for hours dolphins zipping back and forth in front of our ship with ease, while we were cruising at 25 knots. The 'Old Salts' used to tell us tales of Dolphins saving sailors lives. Little did I know this at the time but these were no tales.Recently, I heard of a couple of stories where dolphins have saved people from certain death. One in our own back yard of Monterey Bay, California
Todd Endris escaped with his life thanks to those dolphins. Watch the report although there are some mangled leg pictures in it.
One of the most fascinating accounts is when the dolphins were swimming aggressively around the group and bumping their feet to keep the feet up. They couldn't even swim forward, they were only allowed to tread water. The video program said the dolphins were swimming so fast around them the appeared to be angry at the people, they thought they might of disturbed a baby dolphin and they were being territorial. The truth is that a great white shark was swimming just under their feet and was making approaches to strike. The dolphins kept the people safe until the danger passed.
Another brilliant moment was described when the dolphins saved a girl from drowning! She said: "All of a sudden, I was looking once again at the azure, cloudless sky above me, perplexed as to how this had happened. It seems that the dolphin had ingeniously flipped me over, before nuzzling his slippery snout into the nape of my neck to keep my head above the water. I was being nurtured, protected and held in timeless suspension."
Then once saved she recalls "Once I was safely on the main boat, the dolphin that had "saved" me, along with three others, circled it in glee. Leaping, belly-flopping, back-flipping, it was a sight to behold. They clearly shared my own elation,..."
There is still another story of a man bleeding in the ocean for hours being protected by dolphins to fend off a team of stalking sharks moving closer.
I am sure there are plenty more examples of this behavior of dolphins "looking out" for us in the vast waters of the ocean. My question to all of you is why? Science may describe the how, like through communication through clicks and what not, but why? Why would they risk their own lives to save ours? They all clearly recognize humans and are sensitive to our needs. They know we are "fish out of the water" in the ocean. So they seek to help and protect us. Why? If you believe in the evolution model, explain this 'evolving' behavior. What is the benefit of dolphins helping humans in an evolutionary concept? Compassion understandably, is allowed in the evolutionary model but compassion between species, without any benefit? I believe there is absolutely no evolutionary benefit for this type of behavior, but I would be what is called biased to the subject.Just remember there is a real reason why all of the sailors call dolphins 'ocean angels.' God's creation is just too wonderful to discount as a coincidence or merely an anomaly. This is true altruism.
So...God created sharks so that dolphins would have something to save us from, some of the time, when we were threatened by them? Doesn't that seem a bit roundabout to you? Why not instead just make the oceans free of things that are capable of preying on humans?
ReplyDeletePut differently, if I stealthily planted a bomb in your house (which, of course, I have neither the knowledge nor the desire to do) and then broke in to defuse it in your awed presence, would that demonstrate my awesomeness in any way? Of course not. You might believe so, but wouldn't that just emphasize the lack of awesomeness on my part? And yet, when God does more or less the same thing, it's because God loves us etc. How does that make sense?
larryniven wrote
ReplyDelete"Of course not. You might believe so, but wouldn't that just emphasize the lack of awesomeness on my part?"
Don't discount the sheer awsomeness of being able to sneak into Dans house and plant a bomb in the first place. ;)
Dan wrote
"Why? If you believe in the evolution model, explain this 'evolving' behavior. What is the benefit of dolphins helping humans in an evolutionary concept? Compassion understandably, is allowed in the evolutionary model but compassion between species, without any benefit?"
Before I answer this, let me first request you don't dismiss it with the "Speculation" buzzword. You asked for speculation, that's what I'm providing. There's supporting evidence for other parts of the theory: this particular element has none. Fossils don't record empathy.
There isn't a gene for "Compassion for other dolphins". The dolphins developed the Compassion emotion because it worked well in their own group, but they developed it in generality: they developed compassion for creatures with features they recognised as dolphin. Some features might include intelligence, sociability and how often the other creature is around. In normal circumstances, these emotions work well: nothing else in the ocean has these features. But with humans feeding them, following them in boats, etc. they can see these same features in us, and thus the compassion emotion applies to us as well.
Humanity has the exact same 'generality' of emotion. It's incredibly easy to feel compassion and empathy for apes, because we see so many features of us in them. The same applies to other animals: get a pet dog or a pet bird and it won't take long for you to see 'human' features in them, and your feelings towards them will change to reflect that.
This is obviously more difficult in creatures with fewer 'human' features (insects and fish, for example) which just goes to prove the point: we have compassion for features we recognise as human, not for actual humanity.
Altruism is a trait common in the more intelligent species -- it is likely a precursor to, or possibly even a result of, sentience.
ReplyDeleteSilly Dan, though, you think you have said something profound and inexplicable, but again, it is actually something which is far more difficult to explain (coherently, anyway) from your Jesus-perspective. As LarryNiven asks, if you would give god the credit for creating life-saving dolphins, do you also credit him with creating killer sharks?
Aside from that, you have shown an amazing ability to apply confirmation bias. Each of the stories you described (the video was no longer available) depicted an elated rescuee who attributed his/her rescue to these aquatic mammals -- but there seems to be no word from the dolphins involved as to their motives.
It sounds funny, and it is a bit tongue-in-cheek, but considering your unwillingness to call Comfort et al liars and or dishonest despite numerous expositions of exactly that, it is also valid. Indeed, in your refusals to describe them (the dishonest humans) thusly, you've consistently stated that we 'can only guess as to their motives'.
If we 'can only guess at their motives', despite the fact that we can speak directly to them, by what method do you presume to deduce the motives of these dolphins? Is it even fair to call it altruism?
It must be frustrating for you -- every time you post something, be it an original piece or some regurgitated drivel, you immediately have it tossed back at you with all of its flaws exposed. You seem to think that this dolphin post is somehow profound and that the question posed is somehow problematic for the non-theist, but as you now see, there are two very easy explanations:
1) Dolphins -- your example -- are highly intelligent creatures, and therefore altruism is an expected trait.
2) Dolphins -- your example -- are not at present able to communicate with humans (or vice versa), so deducing their motives is a dubious proposition, at best.
But since you've gone down this road, how do you explain the existence of tapeworms? If you credit god with the "ocean angels", then how do you explain the not-so-friendly tapeworm?
Oh -- that's right, it's the result of a fallen creation. You conveniently categorize species and their behavior as supporting your 'god hypothesis' if you judge it as somehow beneficial to humans (or to nature in general? Your method is so arbitrary anyway), and you conversely categorize species and their behavior as examples of a 'fallen creation' when you judge it as being a negative.
You may or may not note that we -- rational, science-types -- don't blithely attribute motives to non-communicative species, and we likewise have robust theories and well-thought hypotheses which can explain behavior you would consider inexplicable.
--
Stan
Larry,
ReplyDeleteFirst, welcome.
I hope we can all agree that even firefighter arsonist is anything but awesome.
"Why not instead just make the oceans free of things that are capable of preying on humans?"
Well the oceans would be polluted and die. I saw fascinating footage of hundreds of Great White's in a feeding frenzy on a whale carcass. Hence the necessity of them. They are garbage disposals of the ocean. I believe we can all admit most of the time we are mistaken for something else when we are attacked.
And don't worry God will do away with all evil. Even we will be able to just run up to a lion and pet him and rub his belly like a house cat even. Like it says in Isaiah 11:6-8
Stan,
"You conveniently categorize species and their behavior as supporting your 'god hypothesis' if you judge it as somehow beneficial to humans..."
Valid point, my presuppositions do gear towards giving credit to God for good and the anything bad is attributed to evil or fallen creation. By default though God cannot do evil so sharks are not considered evil, they are very valuable in cleaning up the oceans, but they unclean and even are acting evil by attacking people. Dolphins feels that is unfair and defends us while putting themselves in danger. I used to call myself this, but they are the bully's bully.
Although these were speculative questions, it's interesting to hear the points of view. I must admit though the explanations thus far are losing value, like a scientist clinically explaining love. Ewww, where is the passion?
"I saw fascinating footage of hundreds of Great White's in a feeding frenzy on a whale carcass. Hence the necessity of them. They are garbage disposals of the ocean."
ReplyDeletePut better, I think you mean, "They happen to be (at least in some sense) garbage disposals of the ocean." I don't think that only sharks (or even particularly shark-like things) can logically possibly fulfill that role - do you? If you don't, then God could have made different, presumably less harmful ones, such as (oh I don't know) some kind of creature that's only capable of digesting rotting flesh. Sure, it would take slightly longer for stuff to get eaten, but live humans wouldn't ever be victimized. And that's only one of the many, many possible replacements for sharks, if this is all they're supposed to do. To extend my analogy a bit, what if instead of planting a bomb, I gave you a nuclear Roomba and stopped by every once in a while to make sure it was stable enough not to atomize your entire neighborhood? Again, I don't think that's the best solution.
Dan said a while ago: "my presuppositions do gear towards giving credit to God for good and the anything bad is attributed to evil or fallen creation"
ReplyDeleteThe problem lies with the fact that you TRUST your intuition as to what makes up Good and Bad. A scientist would rather establish all the details of the behavior without placing any value judgement on it. Humans tend to anthropomorphize, after all.
As Stan pointed out, we really don't know WHY the dolphins act this way. As far as I know, we guess that they feel compassion for us - but maybe it's something different? Maybe the behavior involves dolphin society; maybe they hate sharks more than they hate us.
Although I guess I understand why you asked it, you simply assumed that your question was valid without considering whether you were introducing bias into whatever answer you might get back.
Dan wrote:
ReplyDelete"Although these were speculative questions, it's interesting to hear the points of view. I must admit though the explanations thus far are losing value, like a scientist clinically explaining love. Ewww, where is the passion?"
I find the whole concept of the evolution of empathy not only facinating, but also beautiful.
Empathy helps the group, but the mutations unexpectedly apply this empathy to other creatures, not just us humans. However, this isn't detrimental to survival, so it remains in the population, and as a result these creatures become capable of bonding with members of another species.
That something so nice as interspecies empathy could develop from something as brutal as natural selection... that, to me, is a beautiful concept.