February 9, 2010
Is America a Christian Nation?
If you don't have the time to watch or listen, the Cliff notes says yes it certainly is.
I remember posting the following in a past post but it stands true in this subject and is worth repeating.
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America is a Christian Nation? Most definitly! How else would get a country so gullible self righteousness and war mongering.
ReplyDeleteAmerica remember " your imaginary God may love you but everyone else thinks your an asshole"
The Treaty of Tripoli states that it is not. Actually, very people would argue that the US is currently a christian nation.
ReplyDeleteOne has to fear how far will the creationist go to FORCE there beliefs on the rest of the world. Are we in the mist of another crusade? It's seems the most stupid people in the world are going to kill us all because of some fairy tales written in a book. sad really
ReplyDeleteAnt,
ReplyDelete>>One has to fear how far will the creationist go to FORCE there beliefs on the rest of the world.
Forced love is not love at all but we are imposing our beliefs sure. That is the case for any nation though. If you make laws against stealing, you are imposing your beliefs on others, and legislating morality, that stealing is wrong in the first place. I added to this post the "For the Record" video that discusses that point.
>>Are we in the mist of another crusade?
Hardly, wouldn't that be a case of reverse crusades anyway?
>>It's seems the most stupid people in the world are going to kill us all because of some fairy tales written in a book. sad really
250 million Christians in 2007 were persecuted for their beliefs. Abuses suffered by Christians include kidnapping, forced conversion, imprisonment, church destruction, torture, rape and execution. It sure appears very believable to them. I don't recall fairy tales invoking that kind of response.
Creationists have many groups Christians, Muslims, Catholics etc.
ReplyDeleteThe only cilivians in a holy war (Jihad) are us poor atheists court in the crossfire.How many people throughout history have been perecuted for not following a religious belief?
As for morality
Ancetors of Homo Sapians found that the adaptation of living in groups was benifical to the surival of the species, so morality/rights was evolved as requirement for sustaining these groups. As a result natural selection of these moral adaptations devoped through the generations. Now Homo Sapians (modern Human) are born with a predispostion of the morals we have today.
This explains why people who have never had contact with the bible or concepts of Gods still have morals.
Creationist love the spectulate that before the invention human written bible/God people were immoral.
Ant,
ReplyDelete>>As a result natural selection of these moral adaptations devoped through the generations. Now Homo Sapians (modern Human) are born with a predispostion of the morals we have today.
The doctrines of natural selection have often been the justification for the mass murders of Stalin, Mao, Pot, Ill, Castro, and 45 million unborn and counting, and other atheist regimes.
>>This explains why people who have never had contact with the bible or concepts of Gods still have morals.
Nope, that explains why people have a moral compass called the conscience installed by said God.
>>Creationist love the spectulate that before the invention human written bible/God people were immoral.
Utter nonsense. See conscience explanation above.
I think we would both agree that if someone or group wanted to justifercations for such crimes they will find it somewhere. Mostly from religious text or misunderstandings of natural selections.
ReplyDeleteBy plain observation of historical events it is obvious that Creationism wins hands down on any genocide contest.
"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator."
-Adolf Hitler
Ant,
ReplyDelete>>By plain observation of historical events it is obvious that Creationism wins hands down on any genocide contest.
Doubt that, but I really don't want to get into this type of sick "contest". We would have to separate claimed Christians from actual Christians and Atheists from Secular, etc. I will say this though, religion does not cause you to kill people, and it certainly doesn't prevent you from killing people. Let's stop pretending that it does either.
The problem is that the ignorance associated with creationism/religion it gives power to the perpetrators, e.g. witch burnings, people punished for blasphmy, holy wars etc.
ReplyDeleteHow can you say " I will say this though, religion does not cause you to kill people" when Islam for example commandes people to kill the infedels.
Claimed christians from actual christians.
ReplyDeleteSnicker snicker
Dax
ReplyDeletereplace the word "christian" with the word "theist" and Dans point even gets weaker.
If this is a christian nation, why are only three of the ten commandments enshrined in our laws?
ReplyDeleteDan,
ReplyDeleteOf the eighty five percent of Americans that will identify themselves as Christians, only possibly thirty percent, to be generous, are Christians like you think of Christians.
Dan
ReplyDeleteNope, that explains why people have a moral compass called the conscience installed by said God.
Evidence please?
If that's the case, then it's too bad that he didn't also "install" a knowledge of himself, eh?
If america is a christian nation, why is christ not in your constitution? I mean the one that was actually adopted.
Why was your national motto originally "Out of Many, One" with no reference to god or christ?
Some of the original colonial states were explicitly christian, but that doesn't make your actual nation a "christian nation".
Reynold,
ReplyDeleteThe evidence that you claim to seek is the same evidence that you are rejecting. It is through God's special and natural revelations that reveal that God created the conscience and all of creation for that matter.
>>If that's the case, then it's too bad that he didn't also "install" a knowledge of himself, eh?
That is funny that you pondered that question because I just read this morning in an article, "It's no surprise that psychological research shows that creation-based thinking comes naturally, while evolutionary thinking is not natural. This is an integral trait of every human--and it is never going away. When believers see the underlying attributes of design, they can communicate that to others to help them understand that what they see in nature was, in fact, designed." The article went on to say that "Also, people intuitively link purpose with intelligence. This predisposition is not culturally or religiously transmitted, but appears to be instinctive."
"By her own accounts, even Helen Keller, who was deaf and blind from nineteen months of age*, spontaneously pondered, “Who made the sky, the sea, everything?” prior to being taught how to communicate."
All organisms react to their environments. Humans, however, are the only creatures capable of:
*rationalization
*moral absolutes
*distinguishing “good and bad,” *“right and wrong”
*the drive to explore and understand
*artistic creativity and expression
*hunger for purpose and meaning
*the awareness that we are aware
>>If america is a christian nation, why is christ not in your constitution? I mean the one that was actually adopted.
He is throughout. The constitution was established with the understanding of our basic inalienable rights endowed by our Creator. Now, I will admit not every single person was a Christian at signing and not everyone wanted slaves either. They allowed slaves for the time until it could be addressed at a later date. It is a working document and wrongs needed to be righted. That is why we went to war over slavery, it was wrong and it needed to be removed from that document. Now ask yourself, why do we support Israel as a nation?
>>Some of the original colonial states were explicitly christian, but that doesn't make your actual nation a "christian nation".
Some of the states had slaves, but that doesn't make us a slave nation. But we should not confuse a claim of being a "Christian Nation" with a State religion. We do not have a State religion but we are indeed a Christian Nation.
>>It's no surprise that psychological research shows that creation-based thinking comes naturally<< This artical from a creationist website surprise surprise.
ReplyDeleteHowever Logic/Evolution would explain this as well.
In societies that have been subjected to LONG term creationist dictatorship creation-based thinking is adaptation for surviving in that group. Examples of Forced selection are evident. All people who didn't conform to the creationist leaders (church etc.) were killed e.g. witch burnings, crusades, blasphemy charges etc. So these had been going on for at least the last 3000yrs or so. So now we have discendance of these people in societies with the predisposition to ignorance.
In societies that never had or have been separated from this forced selection DO NOT have the predisposition of bypassing there intellect. (Creationism)
The reason humans have evolved those human quality to mentioned is because we developed ways of easier food supplies e.g. farming giving us more time to spend on not searching for food, therefore becoming bored. With this spare time our intellect was developed.
*distinguishing “good and bad,”
ReplyDelete>>my dog knows good and bad<<
*“right and wrong”
>> my horse know right and wrong
*the drive to explore and understand
>> some people do (sceintist) some don't (religous)<<
*artistic creativity and expression
>> birds have this<<
*hunger for purpose and meaning
>> meaning and purpose of ALL life is to procreate<<
*the awareness that we are aware
>> animals would be aware there aware<< LOL
>>When believers see the underlying attributes of design, they can communicate that to others to help them understand that what they see in nature was, in fact, designed." <<
ReplyDeleteWhen people understand the underlying attributes of EVOLUTION, they can communicate that to others to help them understand that what they see in nature was in fact, EVOLVED.
>>In societies that have been subjected to LONG term creationist dictatorship creation-based thinking is adaptation for surviving in that group.
ReplyDeleteSo you blame Creationism on Evolution? That is rich. If Creationism is a "natural process" and a result of evolution then why are evolutionists, such as yourself, fighting it so much? Why are you trying to defy nature?
BTW, I totally disagree. Humans have a fight or flight reaction towards things. "Acceptance" of torture and persecutions, as with Christianity, goes against our natural makeup as claimed by the evolutionists.
Christianity is hazard to one's health and would be avoided in an evolutionary world. Thank the Lord that just is not the case.
Evolution is adaption.
ReplyDeleteHumans have natural reactions of fight or flight from danger. So the people who fought were killed, the people fled/accepted religion did so as a way to remove themselves from the danger (persecution).
So as Dogs and horses don't see selective breeding as dangerous they don't fight nor fight from it.
My point is people/societies with a predisposition to gullibility (religion, theism) are a product of selective breeding. Much the same way dogs are selectively breeding for certain traights e.g. aggressiveness. These traights once breed into a breed can be trained out of an individual dog.
As for me defying nature, since my ancestry as been removed from the danger/threat of persecution I have not been selectively breed for gullibility.
In the evolutionary world in which I live creationism/gullaibity is seen a hazardous to your interlectual heath and is avoided.
Dan
ReplyDeleteIf that's the case, then it's too bad that he didn't also "install" a knowledge of himself, eh?
That is funny that you pondered that question because I just read this morning in an article,
Yep, and article from a MINISTRY! What the hell else kind of "conclusion" would you expect? One thing that they don't mention, and what I was actually looking for, was a knowledge of HIM. You know, your god specifically?
After all, it does no good to worship the wrong one, does it?
By the way, even though they use a mainstream article in their printup, the point is lost on them.
Lots of science is "counter-intuitive". Physics seems to be a good example.
All organisms react to their environments. Humans, however, are the only creatures capable of:
*rationalization
*moral absolutes
The bible is the perfect text book to use to shoot down "moral absolutes". Your own god has babies and pregnant women killed regularly in the OT. Now that kind of thing is frowned upon.
Then there's the war booty from the Midianite women who the Isrealite soldiers were allowed to take...
*the awareness that we are aware
Even monkeys have that. Some primates even have social structures, albeit less complicated than we do.
If america is a christian nation, why is christ not in your constitution? I mean the one that was actually adopted.
He is throughout.
Do a word count of the number of times "Christ" is mentioned in your constitution then.
The constitution was established with the understanding of our basic inalienable rights endowed by our Creator.
That's in the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution.
Neither Christ nor God are mentioned anywhere in the Constitution, much less being present "throughout".
Now ask yourself, why do we support Israel as a nation?
Because of end time nuts like John Hagee and his CUFI group. This is fortunately a modern fetish of the religious right.
Romans 13 (King James Version)
ReplyDeleteRomans 13
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour
Looks like the entire idea of having a revolution is anti-Christian. But I bet you piss and moan about taxes too, don't you, Dan?
Rufus,
ReplyDeleteI thought that was a very good point and keep in mind there are still absolutes that we are to follow God no matter what.
What you said reminded me of a past post about absolute authority (tinyurl.com/absoluteauthority), it is the same as with a nation. The post says:
Some absolutes require obedience directly to God, without human intermediaries, while other absolutes involve obedience to human beings whose authority has been delegated to them by God. Examples of the first category include prohibitions against lying, murder, adultery, and the commands to be patient and kind to others. The second category includes such matters as obedience to parents, governmental officials, and local church leaders. Moral dilemmas often arise when an absolute from one category appears to clash with an absolute from the other category. When a child is told by her father to lie on the telephone, or, far worse, to submit to his advances, the resulting sense of conflict can be intense. In such cases the human authority must be disobeyed, but this is not an exception or an exemption to an absolute, for the absolute is defined in such a way that obedience is to be rendered only when human commands do not violate clear scriptural prohibitions and instructions."
God's moral absolutes never truly conflict, and that all of them are binding in any given situation, with the power of God present for their fulfillment.
So if you have a parent telling you to lie (with the 5th commandment in mind), or a nation that allows the murder of infants (with Romans 13 in mind), We are to honor and follow God first. We have to sometimes buck the system at times to allow for God's glory more. It was wrong to have slaves and we had to change the laws to allow glory to God.
So to answer your question, I will ask, should we be against the Government from taxing us to death so they can fund unjust wars and abortions? You bet we should! The last thing I want my money to go towards is this, or any, administration that is so reckless with God's will. Plus, revolutions are certainly American, just look at the purpose of the 2nd amendment. Giving in to evil was not the intent of Romans 13 but to follow just laws. Unjust laws are not laws at all. They are mistakes that needs to be addressed. Thanks for the question though.
After reading the book of Revelation, one could interpret that the revelation is that the world would be better of Atheist.
ReplyDeleteThe idea that a false prophet will rise to power and mislead people of faith. Therefore bringing about the apocalipse.
So if the people of the world were Atheist and therefore lived in harmony with each other and the envirnoment we would not bring the apocalipse (human pollution climate change) on ourselfs.
Also when the false prophet trys to come into power since everyone is Atheist no one would believe them and hense not follow them.
Then there wouldn't be any need for the rapture to occur.
So even if you do believe in God it is better you don't according to the bible.
Ant,
ReplyDeleteNice try but if it were only atheists then the world would remain evil. Yuck!
The whole point of Christ's return is the complete removal of evil and Satan. Do you want children to continue to suffer? No? Well neither do I and that is why you should welcome Christ's return. What a great world it will be without evil or destruction! It will be true human harmony. Plus, the environment will be a non issue, much like it is today.
If god is real why did he create evil/satan in the first place?
ReplyDeleteWhy did he create suffering?
Why did he create atheism just to punish it?
The environment is only a non-issue to the really stupid people. Everyone lives on planet earth regardless of what they belive.
If the idea of God/s ever existed there wouldn't have been all the destruction death and suffering cause by wars over who's god was real/right or suffering caused by persicution of not following.
A world without suffering could never be achieved but removing theism and replacing it with humanism and envirnomentalism would go along way in evolveing a better world.
If people in the world remain theist then the world will remain unaccountable for it own actions leading to our destruction. YUCK!
This is the part where Dan covers his eyes and ears a goes LA LA LA LA LA i have faith, Pathetic!
Ant, Ant, Ant,
ReplyDeleteWhere do I begin?
>>If god is real why did he create evil/satan in the first place?
First, God did not create evil. See video.
>>Why did he create suffering?
Suffering exists because we exist in a fallen creation.
>>Why did he create atheism just to punish it?
Haha, so it's His fault you don't trust or believe in Him? That is rich.
>>The environment is only a non-issue to the really stupid people. Everyone lives on planet earth regardless of what they belive...A world without suffering could never be achieved but removing theism and replacing it with humanism and envirnomentalism would go along way in evolveing a better world.
Sounds like you want to eradicate people who do not conform to your agenda. Dogma much? Hmm Welcome to the mindset of the Antichrist. I cannot remember where but I remember hearing that the antichrist will separate the masses through this global warming agenda. It may be that the environment is the new one world religion or the false Messiah! People that conforms to this new "green" religion will be marked (the beast) and the ones that are not marked can neither buy or sell. Sounds like Cap and trade to me.
>>If people in the world remain theist then the world will remain unaccountable for it own actions leading to our destruction. YUCK!
Unaccountable for it own actions? Now you are talking about Atheism. Dude you have your worldviews crossed.
>>This is the part where Dan covers his eyes and ears a goes LA LA LA LA LA i have faith, Pathetic!
Pot meet Kettle.
Dan,
ReplyDelete>>Why did he create atheism just to punish it?
Haha, so it's His fault you don't trust or believe in Him? That is rich.<<
Ummmm this question was to show the contradition in the belief of a all powerful, all knowing, loveing creater.
>>Sounds like you want to eradicate people who do not conform to your agenda.<<
I don't wish harm on anybody and I don't what anyone else to harm anyone else. Unlike theists
>>I cannot remember where but I remember hearing that the antichrist will separate the masses through this global warming agenda.<<
sounds like something that a person with shares in pollution corperation eg. Mobil,Enron etc. would say.LOL
Dan do you belive in human pollution is having a negitive effect on the environment?
So again we have creationists labeling what is contradition of there belief ( god controls environment ) as evil or false. same old, same old ( the LA LA responce)
When the planets thermosaline circulation stops due to the influx of fresh water into the ocean caused by human pollution and you are under 10m of ice it will be to late for the realistion of your false theism.
DAn,
ReplyDelete1. Have we driven many species to extinction?
2. Have we polluted our lakes, rivers and oceans with industrial chemicals, oil, mercury, plastic, etc?
3. Have we destroyed entire ecosystems, for example dynamiting coral reefs and deforesting huge areas?
4. Have we fished the oceans to near the point of breaking?
5. Have we filled the air with pollutants?
If you answered yes to any of the above (though you might deny even these), is that not 'harm'? Your god doesn't exist, dude, and we are responsible for our actions.
Dan and ANZILLA both use LA LA reponses.
ReplyDeletehowever Dan has "faith" (strong belief) based in only on a book.
ANTZILLA uses facts
Me... ummm yeah thanks I think.
ReplyDeleteDan, I've read you fallen creation fable and left a post on that blog.
I think it is really scary that you creations would label "environmentalism" as the anti-crist. From my understanding (which without doubt is less than yours) of Jesus's teachings I think Jesus would be an environmenatalist I couldn't imagine he would be in favour of human polluiton and will destrustion of the enviroment and the mass of wealth accumilation associated with it.
I think it is time to do an environment post. Coming to a theaters near you (when I have some time). Stay tuned
ReplyDeleteDan, Envirnoment post. Good idea it would be good to have clarifercation on the theist viewpoint.
ReplyDeleteHowever you will need more than one book to get a proper understanding.
You'll need to at read up on:-
- chemistry
- biology
- physics
- thermodynamics
- Oceanography
- Geography
Other reference material which is usefull:-
- A DAVID SUZUKI COLLECTION - A Lifetime of Ideas
-ANIMATE EARTH - Science, Intuition and Gaia
by Stephan Harding
- An Incovient truth , Al Gore
-Heaven and Earth, Ian Pilmer
After you digest these you should have a better understanding of the environment debate.
Ant,
ReplyDeleteCorrection: After you digest these you should have a better understanding of dogma of the global warming movement.
Did you read what the climategate perpetrator finally said? Plus, the claimed hockey stick data did not even reflect the midevil warming data.
BTW, some of the books that you referenced were political books not scientific. Just more dogma flag and whistles.
I will post it soon, but you must understand that the data just does not hold up.
Dan,
ReplyDeleteAs is the case with science aka asking questions. There are alot of questions and an inifinate amount of data to process.
Of all the books I listed only only 1 Al Gores Inconvient Truth had a one sided opinion towards man made CO2 causes climate changes. The David Suzuki books explain all theroies and there evidence allowing the reader to make there own analysis. Ian Pilmers heaven and earth, although has alot of human pollution content is not of the view that Human CO2 is the cause of the climate change.
Maybe you should read/educate yourself before making the assumption of biasness/dogma.
Anyways we'll save our debate on this when you create the relivent post. A sceintific debate on a theist blog site should be interesting.
Saying this country is a Christian-nation is like saying it is a white-nation.
ReplyDelete-------------------------
The Atheist Perspective
Hey, Jeremy- but America is a nation of the whites, by the whites, and for the whites, isn't it?
ReplyDeleteOh, and Antzilla- there have been scientific debates here galore already. Check out the archives.
ReplyDeleteDan, where did Jesus or Paul say anything like "
ReplyDeleteSome absolutes require obedience directly to God, without human intermediaries, while other absolutes involve obedience to human beings whose authority has been delegated to them by God. Examples of the first category include prohibitions against lying, murder, adultery, and the commands to be patient and kind to others. The second category includes such matters as obedience to parents, governmental officials, and local church leaders. Moral dilemmas often arise when an absolute from one category appears to clash with an absolute from the other category. When a child is told by her father to lie on the telephone, or, far worse, to submit to his advances, the resulting sense of conflict can be intense. In such cases the human authority must be disobeyed, but this is not an exception or an exemption to an absolute, for the absolute is defined in such a way that obedience is to be rendered only when human commands do not violate clear scriptural prohibitions and instructions."
God's moral absolutes never truly conflict, and that all of them are binding in any given situation, with the power of God present for their fulfillment.
So if you have a parent telling you to lie (with the 5th commandment in mind), or a nation that allows the murder of infants (with Romans 13 in mind), We are to honor and follow God first. We have to sometimes buck the system at times to allow for God's glory more. It was wrong to have slaves and we had to change the laws to allow glory to God."
The Roman government would have been doing things "against God", but I can't find where either Jesus or Paul made any exceptions.
zilch,
ReplyDeleteOk maybe I should of said this
The Environment is a subject that requires in-depth understanding of many scientific disciplines. Dan with his ONE book doesn't have the required credentials to understand/comment.
Ant,
ReplyDelete>>Dan with his ONE book doesn't have the required credentials to understand/comment.
Said the biased secular denier of truth.
So by your logic, any subjectively rejected evidence is not evidence at all? Great, then we both agree on many things then.
You cannot get any better credential on this planet then the Bible, and the billions that live by it, and create government from it, will tell you that you are completely delusional to reject the evidence presented in said Bible.
DAN,
ReplyDelete>> You cannot get any better credential on this planet then the Bible, << WTF!!!!LOL@you
When I studied physics was the bible a text book NO!, chemistry NO! Maths NO!,Biology NO!,
The science method- here are the facts. What conclutions can we draw from them?
The bible method - Here is the conclution. What facts can we find/make up to support it from itself?
>>Said the biased secular denier of truth.<< Your truth = bullshit!
You deny any facts. Then base your ideas on 1 book human written 1000's of years ago. What would the athours of the bible know about modern chemistry NOTHING!
Dan,
ReplyDeleteCan you check the bible for the following and save science time and money?
- What shape is the universe?
- Why is gravity so weak compared to the rest of the forces?
- Is it possible for mass to travel faster than light without turning into energy?
- How can we make a superconductor work at room temperature?
- Is it possible to time travel and how?
- Is teleportation possible and how?
Anwser any of these and you'll have a Nobel prize.
I understand people want to believe in God. Fine, I get it. There is the fear of the unknown, and it helps put your mind at ease that this life is not all there is. I get it.
ReplyDeleteBut to see the statistics, the science, the fool-proof evidence that we are destroying our world, and then deny it, and make claims that anyone who believes it is happening is part of a new "green" religion makes me sick.
Even if you are super conservative and Christian, there has to be a part of you somewhere that knows that saving the planet is simply the right thing to do.
Now, I may not believe in your God(s), but I am sure that if he did exist, he would want you to save the damn planet he created. You want to argue against abortion and say that all life is sacred? Good for you. But if are willing to condemn 7 billion people, millions of animals, millions of plants, and any other simple-celled life forms, then what is the point of anything?
What is your message? Life is only sacred if saving it is simple and I don't really have to do anything other than hold a sign outside an abortion clinic?
We may argue about whether or not any god exists, but there is one thing we can all agree on. This planet exists. You may not want to believe we can destroy it, and that is fine. But, for the love of god (In your case), believe that saving it is the right thing to do.
And in the end, if Global Warming is really not occurring, what did we do wrong? We switch to cleaner energy, save some natural habitats from destruction, and improve the overall quality of life for every living thing on this planet. I think that whatever your beliefs on Global Warming are, that protecting the planet is a worthy goal for all of us.
Check my papers on evolution verses ceation at www.wouldjesusgothere.com . Cheers, Steve
ReplyDeleteAntzilla, you say:
ReplyDeleteAnd in the end, if Global Warming is really not occurring, what did we do wrong?
Are you kidding? If we take measures to reduce CO2 emissions, not only will it increase taxes, throttle industry, and force us to use public transportation, but it will establish a socialistic communistic police state with Al Gore as dictator. At least that's what I'm told.
Zilch,
ReplyDeleteIf left to creationist dumb shit governments hell bent on proving themselves right and mismanaging everything then we would have problem implementing change. However if they have half a brain amongst them then the introduction of new industries and technology would be seamless.
Didn't the world economy go to shit without any influence from addressing environment issues?
My idea is to remove all the horded wealth from the religions of the world and use it for betterment of the planet.
Human pollution is happening and left unchecked haveing to chatch a bus is the least of our worries.
I guess possiblly giving up your swanky life style is bit too much to ask for the sake of future life. Sad really.
Ant et al,
ReplyDeleteI apologize for not writing that post yet but we are preoccupied too much at the moment. I am building a new rig also so I will get to all things eventually in time. At least I will address some points for now.
>>The science method- here are the facts. What conclutions(sic) can we draw from them?
A major flaw that I see here is that secular scientists do not keep the Bible as their ultimate authority and is mislead in their hypothesis on matters. In a past post I said
"Evolutionary theory artificially rules out a kind of cause before it has a chance to speak by the evidence. The cause of intelligence. This is why they pigeon hole themselves and scientists often wear, with pride, the title of metaphysical naturalism."
>>Can you check the bible for the following and save science time and money?
- What shape is the universe?
Not sure of the shape but is measurable with the span of God's hand (Isaiah 40:12)
- Why is gravity so weak compared to the rest of the forces?
Good point. How is it that there is an established law of gravity which is even well known by kids jumping rope. Yet, in all the years science has been studding gravity, it remains essentially unexplained?
Science cannot explain origins of the universe or our own planets life. You know the most pressing questions that humans hold in any worldview. The difference is that we DO know the origins of the universe and our lives (Ps 8:3, Ps 102:25, Ps 136:5, Isaiah 42:5, Isaiah 45:12)
Science cannot explain many things, they can only theorize. In that same breath though there is indeed enormous value in science. It depends on the worldview as to the accuracy though. Science has been and is hijacked by ideology, corrupted by government money, and skewed by secular worldviews. Man has, yet again, fallen short of the glory of God.
Dan,
ReplyDeleteScience/humans cannot explain many things, they can only theorize.
CORRECT, the bible is an example of humans past theroies.
Dan,
ReplyDelete>>Evolutionary theory artificially rules out a kind of cause before it has a chance to speak by the evidence." <<
Creationist theory artificially rules out a kind of cause before it has a chance to speak by the evidence."
In the beginning, God . . ." These are the first four words of the Bible. They neither try to prove the existence of God; neither do they try to ascertain where He came from. They ASSUME His existence.
Antzilla, you say:
ReplyDeleteMy idea is to remove all the horded wealth from the religions of the world and use it for betterment of the planet.
How? By force? Good luck. The only way you are going to get the "hoarded wealth" of religions, or of atheism for that matter, to be used for the betterment of the planet, is through love and reason.
Antzilla my friend, for better or for worse, religion is here to stay, at least for the foreseeable future. And Dan, for better or for worse, atheism is also here to stay for the foreseeable future. While there are and will continue to be converts in both directions, I am a pragmatist: I see people of good will, who want to make the Earth a better place to live for everyone, amongst all kinds of beliefs: Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, and everyone else. I see it as my quest to do what I can to love my children, and everyone else, and the planet that gave us life, as well as I can. And that means fostering goodwill wherever I find it.
I don't intend to do violence to my reason, though. Global warming is, unfortunately, a well-established fact. Here in Austria, for instance, I've seen the evidence for myself: the glaciers are melting. I'm doing what I can, by trying to reduce my carbon footprint, and by trying to talk sense into people who seriously think that GW is just a communist plot. Too bad that it isn't: it would be much easier to deal with if it were.
Antzilla, you are right: even if GW is not as bad as the "warm-mongers" claim (which is hard to predict, climatology not being an exact science), there's no disadvantage and many advantages to reducing pollution. I don't even own a car, and I can tell you that it's perfectly possible to lead a good, if not swanky, lifestyle, with only borrowed wheels. I walk to work, and that's good too, for my health and the planet's.
Many Christians would agree. But one reason I bother to debate with fundamentalists is the disturbing trend towards environmental irresponsibility, with the excuse "Jesus is returning soon anyway, so it doesn't matter if I drive my Hummer to the store". I even read a post on RaptureReady once, from a woman who said that now that she's saved, she can gleefully pour weedkiller down the drain "because Jesus is coming and it doesn't matter". That kind of attitude is dangerous, especially for my children, and for her's too.
Anyway, cheers from thawing Vienna, zilch.
Zilch,
ReplyDeleteWell said, we should all be more like Zilch.
I applaud you Zilch for doing "your part" to spread the love here, but how can you love a place where those sentiments are no shared among the planet?
ReplyDeleteI take long and very hot showers and drive a V8 engine Van, not to thumb my nose at the GW crowd but because in the Navy I had to take very cold short and sometimes seawater showers. I was restricted for years on what I could and could not do so the backlash was there. Kind of like when you are restricted in traffic for a very long time and finally see an opening and go for it racing to get away and ahead. The Van because I have no other alternatives for a family of 7 to transport places.
The GW crowd will do the same thing they will attempt to restrict (especially Americans) and they will backlash and rebel against what is "perceived" to be the right thing. Just look at prohibition and the carnage it caused. We rebel, that is our M.O. You will lose, period.
But chins up all you now have another joker that is following right in step with your "beliefs."
You cannot go wrong with that kind of backing, (snicker)
Oh I forgot to run my faucet for the day, after all, I paid for it and I can do what I want with it. :7)
Dan,
ReplyDeleteYour rebel mentalitiy has a follower right in step with your beliefs.
SATAN
You cannot go wrong with that kind of backing, (snicker)
Ant,
ReplyDelete>>Your rebel mentalitiy has a follower right in step with your beliefs. SATAN
Ah touché, but I am certain that you don't believe that Atheists are conformists, do you? If not then I am sure Satan will love your company.
The difference is where is the rebellion directed towards. Like your master Satan, you rebel against God.
I, on the other hand, have rebellion towards man, not God.
No you are rebeling against your God.
ReplyDeleteRevelation 11:18 - The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great — and for destroying those who destroy the earth.
Antzilla, you say:
ReplyDeleteWell said, we should all be more like Zilch.
Thanks for the sentiment, but the world would be a pretty boring place if everyone were like me.
Dan, you say:
Oh I forgot to run my faucet for the day, after all, I paid for it and I can do what I want with it. :7)
That's the American way, isn't it: if you pay for it you can do what you want with it, right? Unfortunately, if people regard the planet as their property to use or abuse as they will, because they "paid" for it, then those who ultimately pay will be our children and their children. And we can't buy another planet, no matter how much money we have, so we had better treat the planet we have lovingly.
I take long and very hot showers and drive a V8 engine Van, not to thumb my nose at the GW crowd but because in the Navy I had to take very cold short and sometimes seawater showers. I was restricted for years on what I could and could not do so the backlash was there. Kind of like when you are restricted in traffic for a very long time and finally see an opening and go for it racing to get away and ahead. The Van because I have no other alternatives for a family of 7 to transport places.
All I can say is, I still take cold showers, partly to conserve energy, but also because they are healthier, and I don't need to be any more of a softie than I already am. And at least here in Europe you can get around quite well, even with a family of seven, on public transportation. And as far as being "restricted in traffic" goes: you are not being "restricted in traffic", you are the traffic.
And in addition to the Scripture Antzilla quoted above, doesn't it say something in Genesis about "replenishing the Earth"? I don't see driving a big car as "replenishing the Earth"- or is this perhaps one of those dietary Old Testament scriptures, having to do with drinking gasoline, that is no longer binding?
And you're not going to get any mileage with me by pointing out that Glenn Beck is getting an environmental conscience. As I've said before, I'm a pragmatist: I don't care why people decide to take responsibility for the planet, and Mother Nature doesn't either. The important thing is to take responsibility, for whatever reason.
cheers from thawing Vienna, zilch
Dan, you say:
ReplyDeleteOh I forgot to run my faucet for the day, after all, I paid for it and I can do what I want with it.
Zilch:
That's the American way, isn't it: if you pay for it you can do what you want with it, right?
Bible:
Lev. 25:23-24. The land is mine and you are but aliens and my tenants. Throughout the country that you hold as a possession, you must provide for the redemption of the land.
DAN,
ReplyDeleteMorals come from God you claim.
Your God approves of slavery,rape,murder.
For proof have a look at
- Leviticus 25:44-46
- Exodus 21:2-6
- Exodus 21:7-11
- Exodus 21:20-21
- Ephesians 6:5
- 1 Timothy 6:1-2
- Luke 12:47-48
- Judges 21:10-24
- Numbers 31:7-18
- Deuteronomy 20:10-14
- Deuteronomy 22:28-29
- 2 Samuel 12:11-14
- Deuteronomy 21:10-14
- Judges 5:30
- Exodus 21:7-11
- Zechariah 14:1-2
Antzilla- as you probably know, the Christian answers to this stuff are typically along these lines:
ReplyDelete1) these were bad people [i.e. people with the wrong invisible friend] who got enslaved, raped, and/or murdered. And maybe being enslaved, raped, and/or murdered isn't really all that bad.
2) the ones who weren't bad, like babies, but who were just collateral damage in taking out their pagan parents, go straight to Heaven. [this is a bit of kneejerk liberal spin doctoring, because it doesn't say this anywhere in the Bible]
3) it doesn't matter anyway, because God is the Potter, and people are just the pots- He can do what He pleases with them. [can't really argue with that, but it does seem kinda mean]
Of course, any self-respecting tyrant can and does give similar answers. All I can say is, based on the Bible and especially the Old Testament, what God means by "love" and "justice" is very different from what I and most other people mean by it.
cheers from sunny Vienna, zilch
Great Blog.
ReplyDeleteReligion says: "We the people believe all MEN are created equal"
ReplyDeleteHowever women and foreigners are not equal to man.
(Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.
Nice try Ant,
ReplyDeleteGalatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
LOL wow more bible contradictions.
ReplyDeleteNice try Dan.
Leviticus 25:44-46
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.
Ant,
ReplyDeleteAgain nice try.
You might want to understand things first.
Dan said:
ReplyDeleteNice try Ant,
Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
If that verse was actually true then verses like these would not exist:
Matthew 15:22-28 whereas only by abasing herself does he bother to help her.
Doesn't sound like Jesus himself believed that verse that Dan quoted. He obviously at that time didn't think that Jews and Gentiles were equal.
What if she had not answered "correctly"?
1 Timothy 6:1-4. Note especially the part about those who have "believing" masters. They are to serve them all the better.
If xianity was against slavery, then "believing masters" wouldn't even exist, much less verses that exhort their slaves to be good slaves or "servants under the yoke"
1 Peter2:18-20 where slaves are told to be "subject to their masters" will "all fear", and not just to the good ones.
Bottom line, if that verse you quoted Dan, forbid slavery in any way on earth then those other verses would not exist. That verse is obviously only referring to the status of believers in the "church" and has jack all to do with changing their status in the real world.
If you don't think the bible endorses slavery than it shouldn't be hard to find some verse which outright forbids it.
Reynold,
ReplyDeleteI did address the whole "slavery" thing in the past posts.
Plus, whether you like it or not, God does want us to have an "order" in our household just like a Captain of a ship. I addressed that also in the past post called "Woman Bosses"
You, Reynold, are a slave to sin and one could make the case that you are a slave to your lifestyle. You must do things, some that you may not want to do, to keep the comforts that your family is accustomed to. You must do as your boss says or risk getting fired even, so don't act like you don't "answer" to anyone.
Dan:
ReplyDeleteI did address the whole "slavery" thing in the past posts.
Yeah, I know. So does Stan.
You didn't give any verses that explicitly forbade slavery in this world.
You gave some verses that said that we're all supposed to be "equal" in the eyes of god, but those verses, again, did NOT prohibit slavery on earth itself. Jesus never spoke out against the practice of slavery, did he? If so, show me the verse.
I also remember some of what you said which dodges the point of your original post in the first place, instead challenging us to explain why slavery is "wrong".
Stan kicked your rear end in that post.
What the bible says about women is another topic.
Dan
You, Reynold, are a slave to sin and one could make the case that you are a slave to your lifestyle. You must do things, some that you may not want to do, to keep the comforts that your family is accustomed to. You must do as your boss says or risk getting fired even, so don't act like you don't "answer" to anyone.
I never did act like I don't answer to anyone. Quit trying to change the subject.
If you can't tell the difference between having a job and being a slave, I don't know what to say.
Except to point out the differences: If I come into money, or if I find employment elsewhere, I'm free to leave my employer. I'm free to live my live as I see fit when I'm not at work.
Employers do not "own" their employees.
Nice try again Dan,
ReplyDeleteEphesians 6:5 NLT
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.
The bible even goes to the trouble of commanding slaves do as there told.
Dan,
ReplyDeleteThis whole blog site is a lie.
You don't attempt to debunk very atheists points about how ignorant belief in imaginary supreme being is nor accept the negative consequences these beliefs have had (there are many).
You just have BLIND FAITH.
This site should be renamed "Maintaining my belief"
or "LALALA I can believe any stupid shit I want"