We all are wretched and evil and without God we would have an unlivable world. This is for the simple fact that "All Men Are Born Evil."
"When the Lord smelled the pleasing aroma, He said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, even though man’s inclination is evil from his youth. And I will never again strike down every living thing as I have done." ~ Genius 8:21
Ray has an analogy: "A little girl was once watching a sheep eat grass and thought how white it looked against the green background. But when it began to snow she thought, "That sheep now looks dirty against the white snow!" It was the same sheep, but with a different background. When we compare ourselves to man's standard we look pretty clean, but when we compare ourselves to the pure snow-white righteousness of God's standard—His Law, we can see ourselves in truth, that we are unclean in His sight. That Law is the holy standard by which humanity will be judged on Judgment Day."
bit.ly/BornEvil
I don't think your wretched or evil. I think everyone here is a wonderful human being and perfect just the way they are.
ReplyDeleteJust my honest opinion.
Err... your = you're. I do know contractions. :)
ReplyDeleteKaitlyn,
ReplyDeleteErr...I understand Typo's also :)
I don't think your wretched or evil.
Ray has an analogy: "A little girl was once watching a sheep eat grass and thought how white it looked against the green background. But when it began to snow she thought, "That sheep now looks dirty against the white snow!" It was the same sheep, but with a different background. When we compare ourselves to man's standard we look pretty clean, but when we compare ourselves to the pure snow-white righteousness of God's standard—His Law, we can see ourselves in truth, that we are unclean in His sight. That Law is the holy standard by which humanity will be judged on Judgment Day."
I said in the past: We think we are good when we break God's laws daily. I am sure a thief considers himself to be good compared to a rapist and that rapist considers himself good compared to someone that murdered a person and that murderer considers himself a good person compared to a serial killer and I am sure that serial killer considers himself good compared to a democrat. When we compare each other by each others standards we all seem to be good "at least I am not as bad as he is" mentality. We must be compared to the righteous standard of God's Law.
Ahh, but what if God doesn't exist? ;)
ReplyDelete"Imagine an 18-month-old baby..."
ReplyDelete...and imagine that you have been ordered by god to kill that baby because it is an Amalekite...
Oh, wait...
"I submit to you, that if that 18-month-old baby had the strength of an 18-year-old man he would slaughter you there where you stand... without feeling an ounce of remorse."
I guess that makes it okay to slaughter the baby instead...
"Hitler was restrained by the common grace of god..."
Wow. Such magical restraint.
Look, so what if our "movie" (that is, the playback of all the thoughts [and deeds] we've ever had) is full of evil -- so is everyone else's, and so there is no shame. There have likewise been a great many fantastically good thoughts, and unless you're personally keeping a tally, I'd say it's pretty damned presumptuous to suggest that the bad outweighs the good (although right now I'm thinking some pretty awful thoughts about the preacher in that video). So what? I have "bad" thoughts, I have "good" thoughts, I have arbitrarily silly thoughts.
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Time out for a joke:
Why did Helen Keller's dog run away?
You'd run away too if your name was, "Nwaemlhmngah"
(Note: the dog's name should be pronounced as a forced, guttural, and stuttered collection of consonants -- mostly alveolar and velar, but some bilabials -- such as one might hear from a deaf mute attempting to speak, and it should be fairly shouted for maximal effect.)
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Ahem...
So yeah, we have bad thoughts, thoughts which are in bad taste, and some genuinely evil thoughts, but I really don't see the point. Your claim that a magical mind is aware of all of our evil thoughts, yet is itself incapable of evil thoughts, is absurd. Couple this claim with the equally absurd notion that this very magical mind has also ordered various atrocities, has explicitly condoned various forms of bigotry and/or mistreatment of fellow humans, and has intentionally delayed the so-called salvation of all souls -- which is itself an extremely exclusive salvation -- and we are left with a steaming pile of absurdities, with little to no actual bearing on life, whether this life or any potential "afterlife".
Heh. I hope you're still laughing at my joke.
--
Stan
Dan-
ReplyDeleteOff topic.
Sye recommended a book by Dr. Greg Bahnsen to me called-
"Always Ready: Directions for Defending the Faith."
Just got it today and in the first chapters it's really great stuff.
I think you would enjoy it too, (If you have not already).
Baruch Hashem,
Dani' El
Such a book seems rather pointless. Whenever Daniel finds himself caught in a lie, he cites a biblical passage saying "they asked him questions and he answered nothing." Let's face it, someone who uses that tactic is lying for his faith.
ReplyDeleteKaitlyn- hey, "your" is just a further contraction of "you're". I wouldn't be surprised if someday it, like many other common internet spellings, became acceptable.
ReplyDeleteAbout evil: as Greg Bear said, nobody with a mouth and a need is innocent. Good and evil are concepts that evolved with societies: "good" is that which builds society, and "evil" is that which destroys society. As such, they are indispensable, mutable, and not perfectly definable. So to say that we are born "evil" (or "good") is nonsense- you might as well say that we are born "Republican" or "Christian".
We must be compared to the righteous standard of God's Law.
ReplyDeleteYeah, the law that he himself doesn't bother to obey. Witness the many killings of infants, etc in the OT. I've never committed infanticide, so I know I don't match up to his standard.
I'm sure one can think of more, but you get the point.
As for how we're born, I think we're just born neutral.
Zilch, your concept of good and evil intrigues me. Which organizations do you belong to and how might I acquire a newsletter?
ReplyDeleteKaitlyn, about the only organizations I belong to are the American Democratic Party and the Viennese Guild of Instrument Makers. I wouldn't necessarily ask the Democrats what "good" and "evil" are, and the Guild doesn't even know the meaning of the words.
ReplyDeleteMy ideas of good and evil are basically evolutionary. I'm working on an exposition of them which I hope to get posted soon- I'll let you know. Basically, though, I just try to be a nice person as well as I can. I think most people do the same, don't they? Based on what you've written here so far, I would say that you are also a nice person, like most of the people here.
Pretty dead around here
ReplyDeleteWell Zilch, I think that philosophers and theologians around the globe have been wrestling with the concept of Good and Evil for millennia, despite Evangelical Christians' claim to an exclusive line on it. I tend to agree with you that how we treat others, how we serve our brothers and sisters and communities, is the ultimate measure of the good we do. I'm not a Christian, but I'm not an Atheist either, which might make it more difficult for Dan to "debunk" me. But this notion that the world would be "unlivable" without the Christian concept of God is such a gross absurdity... Evangelicals should stop trying to use it; it is meant to bolster the case for their faith but of course it does the direct opposite. Shall we start looking at some peaceful non-Christian societies around the world?
ReplyDeleteRalph1Waldo,
ReplyDeleteBut this notion that the world would be "unlivable" without the Christian concept of God is such a gross absurdity...
First, welcome and thanks for commenting I owe you a response in our other discussion and please be patient with me I am being tugged in many directions.
Second, speaking of non-Christian peaceful societies, I read something about labor unions and peaceful strikes and boycotts and according to Hershberger, strikes and boycotts can theoretically be peaceful, but they are coercive nonetheless. They challenge the principle of nonresistance, a value, incidentally, that many of the non-Christian peaceful societies also practice, though they may not use that term. Hershberger maintains that the nonviolent actions used by both sides of a labor dispute can lead, when they fail, to violence. (Hershberger, Guy Franklin. 1939. “Nonresistance and Industrial Conflict.” Mennonite Quarterly Review, 13(2): 135-154)
Also, many American Christians have finally awakened to the fact that in our lifetime our society has devolved from one that was fundamentally Christian in its thinking, values and conduct to one that is largely secular (non-religious) and on many levels, anti-Christian. America is an example of a non-Christian peaceful society these days but if you attempt to remove God then utter chaos will ensue. This society cannot last without the foundations and blessings set by God. Without God, we would have an unlivable society.
Japan and several European countries like Denmark, Norway, etc. seem to be doing guite well despite being quite secular, or at least non-christian.
ReplyDeleteYou want evil, Dan? Here it is.
ReplyDeleteCalvinist xianity.
Although the evil we are speaking of is indeed negative, the ultimate end, which is the glory of God, is positive. God is the only one who possesses intrinsic worth, and if he decides that the existence of evil will ultimately serve to glorify him, then the decree is by definition good and justified. One who thinks that God's glory is not worth the death and suffering of billions of people has too high an opinion of himself and humanity.
If anyone disagrees with all that's found on that link I posted, please back your views up biblically and show how that Calvinist is the one who's misinterpreted things.
ReplyDeleteNow, back to an "unlivable society" without your god, I could also note that the native american tribes seemed to have been around for a long time, until the missionaries and colonists came over.
Reynold,
ReplyDeleteI do appreciate the article by Vincent Cheung and I intend to read it. I am not familiar with him though. Who is he? I did find this if that is indeed the same person. I just like to follow that old cliche to "consider the source"
Yeah, that looks to be the same guy, all right. The person you linked to has a link to Cheung's site where Cheung has that article.
ReplyDeleteI'm going to have to read the analysis of Cheung by that guy you linked to.
I'll say one thing though after dealing with Calvinists: the ones I've dealt with are all @$$holes, both in real life and on the net.
Zilch said
ReplyDeleteKaitlyn- hey, "your" is just a further contraction of "you're". I wouldn't be surprised if someday it, like many other common internet spellings, became acceptable.
May The Grammar God Smite You Down For Your Blasphemy!
"you're" is a contraction of "you are".
"your" is a pronoun.
A proper contraction of "you're" would be you'r', or even 'u'r' (with three apostrothingies).
Okay, quasar, now 'u'v' done it! If we are going to be really correct with contractions, we will have lots of work to do. As Lewis Carroll said, for instance, if "n't" is the contraction of "not" in "don't", then we must also logically write "ca'n't" and "wo'n't": since "n't" is the contracted "not", then we need apostrophes for the missing parts of "can" and "would" (construed as "will"- or do we need "wi'n't" as well?) as well. Carroll actually used these contractions in his books.
ReplyDeleteOther contractions that need to be corrected include all acronyms: for instance, s'c'u'b'a', for "s(elf) c(ontained) u(nderwater) b(reathing) a(pparatus); P'a'k'i's't'a''n, for P(unjab) a(fghania)k(ashmir) i(ran)s(indh)t(ukharistan) a(fghanistan) (balochista)n, and br''unch, for br(reakfast)(l)unch. Not to mention d'on and d'off, for "do on" and "do off", happy as a clam' for "happy as a clam at high tide", and vote Republican', for "vote Republican, if you want the world to go to Hell in a handbasket".
Reynold: about Calvinists- yes, they are funny. One thing that puzzles me about them: why do they bother evangelizing at all, seeing as God (in their view) planned the whole Universe down to the last detail before He created it, which means it has already long since been decided who goes to Hell and who to Heaven?
Oh what a tangled web we weave
In Calvinism to believe