Without Christ who is righteous? ...no one. (Romans 5:19, 1 John 2:29)
February 21, 2009
Crisis of Credit Visualized
Josh showed me something interesting. This has nothing to do with DA but I liked it so much I wanted to share. Maybe I can relate it to how mankind is burying themselves with always doing the wrong things, especially when it comes to money. The righteous will prevail because God designed the universe that way.
Without Christ who is righteous? ...no one. (Romans 5:19, 1 John 2:29)
Without Christ who is righteous? ...no one. (Romans 5:19, 1 John 2:29)
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You associate yourself with God, Dan. Are you saying that you are righteous?
ReplyDeleteI bet you most of those bankers were "with Christ."
ReplyDeleteAnyway, thanks for posting this video Dan. It is quite educational.
G.E.
Thank Bush for the crisis.
ReplyDeleteHey, G.E.,
Not that easy to "with Christ":
"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Dan's position seems to be that 'sinning' is really OK as long as you sing silly little songs to Christ. So most of the naughty bankers would be 'saved' in his position. Unless they are jews or something. I'm not sure that's really the 'Christian' position at all.
Dan probably thinks he is not 'rich' himself. I'm also not very sure of that. I consider myself rich in any case, and I'm not even close to the average income of white-collar Americans.
So, I think modern Christianity is a hypocrisy club (with many very nice people in it, I'm sure) based on ancient requirements which are both socially and economically totally unrealistic.
Geert,
ReplyDeleteThank Bush for the crisis.
Not only Bush my friend it was the Democratic Congress that pushed the Fanny Mae Freddie Mac fiasco. You need to thank the likes of Barney Frank for the economy.
Dan's position seems to be that 'sinning' is really OK as long as you sing silly little songs to Christ.
Sinning is never OK. Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven.
Kaitlyn,
ReplyDeleteAre you saying that you are righteous?
Thank God yes! (Romans 5:19, 1 John 2:29)
So, Dan, in your presuppositional logic, a camel passes frequently through the eye of a needle?
ReplyDeleteGeert,
ReplyDeleteSo, Dan, in your presuppositional logic, a camel passes frequently through the eye of a needle?
If I am using that example to get a point across; using a parable or a hyperbole; in comparing it to a rich man getting to heaven then sure.
Dan,
ReplyDeleteLet us look at what the bible says again:
"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
A pretty hefty and clear statement. What is the point, do you think, the author wants us to understand? That it is possible that a camel passes through the eye of a needle or that it is impossible for a rich man to get to heaven?
What do you think?
Well, it is impossible for a rich man, poor man, or gay man, or any man to get to heaven without Christ's Salvation. Without being sanctified we are lost. (1 Corinthians 1:30, Hebrews 10:10) Without Christ as our God, instead of money, a camel would indeed go through an eye of a needle easier then a man, who is worshiping another god, getting into heaven.
ReplyDeleteDan,
ReplyDelete"a camel would indeed go through an eye of a needle easier then a man, who is worshiping another god, getting into heaven."
That's not what it says, does it? That's what you want to hear. Matthew 19:16-26 does not talk about poor men, gays or just "any man" (like you and me, I guess). It talks specifically about rich people.
It's a believer who comes to Jesus and asks "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?"
And besides following the 10 commandements (which is really hard enough, you have to admit: never lie, not even about Santeclaus), the advise he's given is no less than to "go and sell your possessions and give to the poor”...
After which of course, comes the camel and the needle and the poor lad went away grieving.
So I guess your "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven." is a bit an easy-way-out attitude. Jesus seems asks no less than a communist state of mind.
On the other way, agreed, after the horrified reaction of his pupils (who must've been in doubt of God's good intentions) Jesus uses the typical hedging bet, found in the Qur'an many times also: "with God all things are possible." This of course, invalidates Sye's "Logic is the way God thinks." presupposition entirely - if all things are possible, (his precious) law of contradiction does not hold! But what it also invalidates are all other guarantees about salvation. It's the ultimate contradiction.
To be short: it's easy to condemn atheists (and all poors souls who believe in other gods) to hell (as if that's an ethical thing to do) and sleep tight yourself because you think the way-out is easy (com'on, atheist, just believe and it's alright).
I don't think your little bet - Pascal's wager - holds, really.
Geert,
ReplyDeleteI shouldn't do a Bible study with a non-believer but I am felling generous. I love it (Then Bible) too much not to. The verses I would like to focus on is Matthew 19:21-22. God knows our thought life, evidenced by Matthew 5:28. So, Jesus knew what this man was worshiping before he even approached. Jesus gave him an out to give up things, to sacrifice, and turn towards God. Jesus knew the response He would get from that man.
Can I be a Christian and be a drug addict or an alcoholic? Can a person rob banks and be a Christian? Can I worship my money and still be a Christian? (Matthew 6:24, Luke 16:9, Luke 16:11, Luke 16:13) I think we all know that answer to be nope. Jesus was just trying to save the man that never really wanted to be saved. Love is not forced. Hope that helped.
I cold easily just say "insert Pascal's wager here" but it goes beyond that. I would rather live a life knowing there is a God, and die to find out there isn't one. (I would still be glad I attempted to conduct myself in a righteous manner.) Then to live a life knowing there is no God, only to find out I was horribly wrong.
I shouldn't do a Bible study with a non-believer but I am felling generous.
ReplyDeleteWhy?
Jesus was just trying to save the man that never really wanted to be saved.
Just that man? The camel and needle is otherwise a whopper of a generalization for all rich people, Dan. No mistake there.
What would you do if Jesus asked you to sell all, give to the poor and follow him?
Then to live a life knowing there is no God, only to find out I was horribly wrong.
Oh no, if God exists it would be a really nice suprise. And I'm sure, if so, we'll be poverbially drinking tea together, Dan, laughing at each other's mistakes. Me, that I just could not find God and you that you think she could be so evil as to punish honesty while following ones conscience.
Geert,
ReplyDeleteWhat would you do if Jesus asked you to sell all, give to the poor and follow him?
Well I did of sorts. I gave up potential six figure income to stay at home and homeschool our kids. So...:)
that you think she could be so evil as to punish honesty while following ones conscience.
First, I do hope we will enjoy a nice beverage together in Heaven. Second, does your conscience tell you that you have sinned (broken any of the Ten Commandments)? Third should a just God punish the wicked for breaking said Laws?
Well I did of sorts. I gave up potential six figure income to stay at home and homeschool our kids. So...:)
ReplyDeleteAh, I see, you let your wife break Jesus' commmand in your stead?
Second, does your conscience tell you that you have sinned (broken any of the Ten Commandments)?
My conscience goes much further than the 10 commandements, Dan. Very much further. Yours does too, I very much hope... The 10 commandements are just a poor distortion of what's needed to live happely together in a community with billions of people.
Third should a just God punish the wicked for breaking said Laws?
(1) Punish little lies with eternal torture? CERTAINLY NOT. Punish Hitler with eternal torture? Tempting... but NO, that would be utterly inhuman. God would just be worse than that imbecile.
(2) Moreover, I'm a father too, Dan. If we punish our children, it's to prevent them from misbehaving themselves later and thus being unable to function as a fellow human being. God's 'punishment' is not really punishement, is it? It's VENGEANCE. It comes too late and serves no more purpose.
(3) He doesn't really punish sins, does he? He offers a lawyeristic escape: if you "love him", he won't punish even if you've sinned. If you never knew him, you get punished even if you're a good human being. That's narcistic lawyerism, not justice.
I think, Dan, before you can even start debunking atheists, you should first try to understand their objections first.
Note, Dan, I don't want to attack you in any way about that silly camel and the needle. I think you're doing very much the right thing and I hope for a lasting success of your wife's venture.
ReplyDeleteBut do you understand what I want to demonstrate to you?
Geert,
ReplyDeleteAh, I see, you let your wife break Jesus' [command] in your stead?
Can you help me out then and point me to the verses that say this? If I am wrong I would like to know. I am all ears.
If you never knew him, you get punished even if you're a good human being.
There is none good with the exception of one, and He turned out to be God Himself.
He offers a lawyeristic escape
It is our only hope, He would be a corrupt Judge if just let criminals go free.
I think, Dan, before you can even start debunking atheists, you should first try to understand their objections first.
Oh I do completely understand. I was raised as one and was one for many, many years. I know an atheist like I know myself since at one point of my life they were one and the same.
I think you're doing very much the right thing and I hope for a lasting success of your wife's venture.
First I appreciate that very much, second I wish the very same to you and yours. I don't want you to perish and I will take a few hits while I attempt to pull you out of the burning house in hopes that you will understand one day. Plus my skin has thickened since starting this blog obviously so it's difficult to break my armor these days. So vent on me, scratch at me if you must, but I will do all I can to remove you from that proverbial burning building. :)
Can you help me out then and point me to the verses that say this? If I am wrong I would like to know. I am all ears.
ReplyDeleteWe were talking about Matthew 19:16-26, Dan. The kind of verses which are minimized by Christians, except Franciscans, all of the time.
It is our only hope, He would be a corrupt Judge if just let criminals go free.
Calling all humanity a bunch of criminals is beyond my comprehension, Dan. Some Christians seem to base their beliefs on acid sarcasm and a very dark view on humanity, sorry to say.
It is our only hope, He would be a corrupt Judge if just let criminals go free.
Yes well, and no good deed should go unpunished either, I guess.
Does not take away my objections (1) eternal torture is no punishment for any crime (2) you're talking vengeance, not punishment and (3) it's cold lawyerism.
Read it carefully again, maybe. I'd like an answer.
I know an atheist like I know myself since at one point of my life they were one and the same.
Can be so, you must've been atheist for other reasons than I do.
Plus my skin has thickened since starting this blog obviously so it's difficult to break my armor these days.
Well, of course, if you're going to attack people on their convictions up front, you'll get a stiff defense. And believe me, I always pull my blows as not to hurt or offend plain, honest people.
Geert,
ReplyDeleteG-Ah, I see, you let your wife break Jesus' [command] in your stead?
D-Can you help me out then and point me to the verses that say this? If I am wrong I would like to know. I am all ears.
G-We were talking about Matthew 19:16-26, Dan.
Sorry buddy, I am either slow or I missed something, what does Matthew 19:16-26 have to do with letting my wife break Jesus' [command] in my stead?
Does not take away my objections (1) eternal torture is no punishment for any crime (2) you're talking vengeance, not punishment and (3) it's cold lawyerism.
Read it carefully again, maybe. I'd like an answer.
For your point 1:
If I lie to a child, I'll get away with it.
If I lie to my wife, I'll be sleeping on the couch.
If I lie to a police officer, I'm obstructing justice and I'll go to jail.
If I lie to a judge, it's called perjury, and I'll go to prison.
If I lie to the government, it can be called treason, and the punishment might be death.
So how much more egregious is a lie to God?
For your point 2:
Hard to argue with that point (Psalm 94:1, Psalm 149:7, Luke 21:22, Romans 12:19) He will strike vengeance on the evil. Thank you Lord for sparing me from that deserved end.
For your point 3:
I agree. It was a legal transaction. You broke God's Law (the Ten Commandments), and Jesus paid your fine. That means that God can legally dismiss your case. You can leave the courtroom on the Day of Judgment because another paid your fine.
Point 1: Exist or not, you can't lie to God, steal from him nor kill him. A rather invalid argument, I'd say. Also, from top to bottom, the persons you describe (child, wife, police officer, judge, government) become more impersonal. They become more political-power-'interests' to protect. Your God is impersonal? Is your God out on revenge because he's just protecting his own little political interests?
ReplyDeleteI hope you agree that's silly.
Luckily for you, I'd say, you misunderstand the whole message of the bible, there. Out of sheer intellectual honesty I'm gonna give you the real, way more beautiful message of bible, which completely reverses your little list you have there. It's not the interest of God which is protected, but the interest of the little child on top: read Matthew 25:45-46.
I fully understand the beauty of the message of the bible in that paragraph, Dan, and while Matthew 25:45 "Truly I tell you, inasmuch as you did not do it unto the least of these, you did not do it to me" is a sound, beautiful message (the child, who's not protected from our lies, is protected by God) which is worthy of a great civilization, the following line Matthew 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." clearly shows that it's abused in an immoral way.
The first line is graceful, in line with my sense of justice. The second line is in line with an inhuman dictator's state of mind. Platonic morality raped. (Note: more and more Christians go back to the original Armenian and Greek bible texts to show that "eternal punishment" is not in the original text. In fact, they say that Hell is not part of the bible)
Points 2 and 3, thank you that you agree, but rest assured: vengeance and lawyerism have nothing to do with real justice. Both are escape mechanisms for organized crime, by the way. Vengeance to intimidate their enemies, lawyerism to escape true justice and go free on technical details.
Again, I'm sorry Dan, you don't describe a loving father, you describe an impersonal vengeance mechanism with a sense of self-importance is doesn't really need.
Now, about Matthew 19:16-21, Dan, you don't seem to realize how much you Christians read the bible so it suits them, and not what's there. Even the rich Vatican reads the bible the wrong way there. Jesus asks in our face in that paragraph, to forfeit all kinds of wealth so I ask you: why don't you? You answer me: but I did, I stayed home and forfeit my income! Well, of course, you don't. You live on the wealth of your wife (and do equally valuable homework). Why do you not see that simple fact?
I don't subscribe to that morality, it's too extreme, not even remotely viable. But it's there, right in your book, and ignored by all wealthy Christians (of which there are a lot).
If you ignore your own books, how can you ever debunk me as an atheist?
Geert,
ReplyDeleteYou are cracking me up dude you just gave the argument away. You first say Exist or not, you can't lie to God, steal from him nor kill him. A rather invalid argument, I'd say. Then you give Matthew 25:45-46 as a reference? Thanks for making my case. You are lying and stealing from an eternal God so how severe should the punishment be for eternally lying to an eternal being? We are not lying to each other when we lie we are lying to God Himself and that punishment will be severe.
Again, I'm sorry Dan, you don't describe a loving father, you describe an impersonal vengeance mechanism with a sense of self-importance is doesn't really need.
That is not my job to describe a loving Father to you right now. I would be describing a different side of God if you were humble but since you are not you get the Law. (James 4:6) Law to the Proud and Grace to the Humble. You are too proud to get the good news from me. I don't want to give such beautiful pears to swine that you are being. (Matthew 7:6) The God you will see is the God of vengeance, that will not be the side of God that I meet.
You live on the wealth of your wife
Wealth? That reminded me something Criss Rock said, that Shack is rich but the man that signs his checks is wealthy. It doesn't feel like wealth, but I understand your point.
If you ignore your own books, how can you ever debunk me as an atheist?
Mere assertions. Yawn
Thanks for making my case.
ReplyDeleteAt least, you can't blame me for not trying to understand your point of view. It's called intellectual honesty. I wish one day, you will ever open your eyes to the rich multitude of ideas in the real world.
But read it again, I did not make your case by far. I showed you should completely reverse your own 'logic' you gave me by your own scripture. And it makes your view of an 'eternal punishing' and 'vengeful' God even more ridiculous. As I clearly described further. But hey, you'll just yawn.
Mere assertions. Yawn
It's this rudeness and dishonesty here just shut the door.
Sorry to provoke your own disinterest for alternative views to the bible. The verses I gave you are crystal clear and my statements thus go beyond mere assertions. I will not be here to point the narowness of the vengeful god idea out to you. Have fun diabolizing 5 billion people who see the world a bit different from you.
I can only conclude that you will never be able to debunk hindu's, muslims, jews let alone atheists by lack of interest of anything else than what your little club of biblical thinkers.
Goodbye. I'd be happy to discuss anything with you, as you're a good and upright man, but it won't be religion.
Geert,
ReplyDeleteAnd it makes your view of an 'eternal punishing' and 'vengeful' God even more ridiculous.
The Bible describes Hell as unquenchable fire,(Mark 9:43) outer darkness,(Matthew 22:13) a furnace of fire and a place where people wail and gnash their teeth,(Matthew 13:42) and a lake of fire.(Revelation 20:15) where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched,(Mark 9:48) and where people are in agony in flames.(Luke 16:24)
Perhaps the most terrifying passage in the Bible describing hell says that men will "drink the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night." (Revelation 14:10-11)
According to the Bible if you have made the wrong choice then you will burn in agonizing pain for eternity. Are you absolutely sure you have truth on your side?
I can only conclude that you will never be able to debunk hindu's, muslims, jews let alone atheists by lack of interest of anything else than what your little club of biblical thinkers.
So I need to have an interest in something to debunk it? Do I need to be interested in child molestation to debunk it? You lost me yet again.
but it won't be religion
Keep in mind there is a huge difference between Salvation and religion. I am attempting to point you to the path of Salvation not religion. Take care and please don't die before you figure all of this out.
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