May 10, 2009
Compulsory Service to Sin
Though funny, is this the Atheists viewpoint of truth? This spin doctoring is an extremely disingenuous approach to explaining God.
I guess what Atheists don't understand is that they currently don't have free will, they are a slave to sin. (Romans 6:16-19, Romans 7:14-25) God is here to save them from that vassalage to give them freedom from sin. So they'll not end up in the place very deserving for sinners or a.k.a Law breakers. (2 Corinthians 12:7-10) God gives us that strength to resist sin. (Philippians 4:13)
Update: Look, I may want to go out drinking and then drive myself home but that will not be tolerated by our society. I am certainly not free to choose any weapon living here in California. In a sense, I am a "slave" to California Laws. Like Atheists, I can rebel against the "establishment" in disobedience but I will have to suffer the consequences like anyone else. What is so wrong with conformity? Pride? You do so in a society that you may or may not agree with, but since it is our laws you abide by them. Why not abide by God's Law?
Plus, I did want to mention the brilliant discussion by Dr. Bahnsen in a earlier post called Foreordination and Human Responsibility. As our good friend Sye suggested "you might want to check out 4:45 of part 7."
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Conservative Christian theologians teach that if you make the wrong choice and believe the wrong thing, you will be tortured for eternity in hell. That’s not a “choice,” it’s more like a man telling his girlfriend, do what you wish, but if you choose to leave me, I will track you down and blow your brains out. When a man says this we call him a psychopath.
ReplyDeleteWilliam C. Easttom II [Edited by E.T.B]
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According to Christianity eternal suffering awaits anyone who questions God’s infinite love. That’s the message we’re brought up with, believe or die. “Thank you, forgiving Lord, for all those options.”
Bill Hicks (comedian), Rant in E-minor, CD
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As a tot I was given the usual terrifying mixed message: a) God is love; and b) If you don’t believe how much he loves you, you will stand in the corner for eternity.
James Lileks, “God Has Call Waiting,” Notes of a Nervous Man
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Jesus loves you unconditionally, and if you do not believe it you will when you are in hell.
Source unknown
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ED ANSWERS CHRISTIAN PHILOSOPHER VICTOR REPPERT ON THE THE “CHARACTER” QUESTION
VR: According to Christianity, this earth and everything in it, including all the human suffering we find there, lasts only a few centuries, while human character lasts forever. Something that alleviates our suffering at the cost of harming our character is not a bargain if Christians are right.
ED: “Forever” is a long time in which to develop the character of free-willed beings, if that is what you suppose God’s main concern is. But based on various Bible passages it seems to me like God’s main concern is not “character development” so much as retribution, wrath, holy jealousy, casting people into lakes of fire, locking people out of wedding parties who arrive late, warning people about the God who can cast both body and soul into hell.
Some Christians, C. S. Lewis included, argue that hell is a “loving provision,” a place where non-Christian souls are safe from the pain they would feel if they were exposed to God’s presence. Such an argument fails to convince because Christianity teaches Jesus mingled with “sinners and wine-bibbers” without any mention of his presence causing them unbearable pain. Jesus also allegedly preached to “souls in hell,” so I guess God can tone down his “presence” enough to avoid causing sinners pain. God can even put His “presence” in communion wafers (if Catholics and Lutherans are right) without it burning the tongues of sinners (unless the person happens to have a strong allergic reaction to wheat).
Those Christians willing to question the notion of a firey retributive hell lit by God’s jealousy and anger, and who favor instead a “lighter” less “tortuous” version of “eternal punishment” (perhaps being cast into a lake of sour jello instead of a lake of fire), should take their questioning to the NEXT level and ask why “hell” needs to be any worse than this world? We have pain and sickness here, we suffer here, but there is also room for healing, growth and education. (Indeed, what better teachers could there be than God and time, especially if God is most concerned about the development of one’s character thoughout eternity rather than being concerned about vengeance, wrath and retribution?)
As for those who argue that eternal hell should be viewed as “God’s great compliment,” I say, if eternal punishment is such a great “compliment,” what does God do when he wants to “insult” someone? (Maybe I should simply respond, “Then please take your gleefully and playfully worded defense of hell with you to hell? There, have I complimented you enough?”)
Lastly, why do you assume that this world is the best place in which to develop character? We start out ignorant babes, picking up the ignorance and prejudices of those who raise us. Then once our hormones kick in during adolescence we’re tossed on a sea of emotions. And “communication” itself is a difficult art that can cause the utmost confusion, pain and suffering, or lead to it. While simple stupidity cripples some people, cities, nations, etc. Throughout life we also have to concentrate on basic needs first and foremost, from food and clothing and shelter to basic education to hopefully advanced education (which much of the world lacks), and even then there’s little time left for most people on earth to compare and contrast religions, philosophies, wise teachers and sayings, or even to self-examine themselves and what they truly do believe, or to retrace and study the courses of their own journeys that can lead to new ideas and beliefs. Certain people also suffer so much in life either psychologically or physically that it doesn’t always build character but can deconstruct it or scramble a person’s brain/mind. Even a mere deficiency in a vitamin or mineral can scramble a person’s brain/mind, and/or hinder their ability to think clearly. A tiny lesion in the brain or pressure from a benign tumor can also change a person’s behavior. It turned one happily married man into a porn addict and molester of his own daughter, and then once the tumor was removed, he was fine.
All I have to say is this...
Given headaches, backaches, toothaches, strains, scrapes, breaks, cuts, rashes, burns, bruises, PMS, fatigue, hunger, odors, molds, colds, yeast, parasites, viruses, cancers, genetic defects, blindness, deafness, paralysis, mental illness, ugliness, ignorance, miscommunications, embarrassments, unrequited love, dashed hopes, boredom, hard labor, repetitious labor, accidents, old age, senility, fires, floods, earthquakes, typhoons, tornadoes, hurricanes and volcanoes, I can not see how anyone, after they are dead, deserves “eternal punishment” as well.
E.T.B.
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Love is not murdering your son to appease your own vanity. Love is not hatred or wrath, “casting” billions of people into a “lake of fire whose smoke rises up forever,” because they have offended your ego or disobeyed your rules. Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being.
Dan Barker, Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist [Edited by E.T.B.]
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Any religion that teaches there is only heaven or hell
is gonna be a haven for manic-depressives.
E.T.B.
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I read in the Gospels that Jesus forgave the men who nailed him to the cross.
He even promised, “This day you shall be with me in paradise,” to a thief crucified next to him--a thief who addressed Jesus simply as a “man” rather than as “the son of God.”
Yet, today, this same Jesus cannot forgive my kindly old aunt and allow her to dwell in paradise, simply because her “beliefs” do not match Reverend So-and-So’s?
Arthur Silver
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They say that when god was in Jerusalem he forgave his murderers, but now he will not forgive an honest man for differing with him on the subject of the Trinity.
They say that God says to me, “Forgive your enemies.” I say, “I do;” but he says, “I will damn mine.” God should be consistent. If he wants me to forgive my enemies he should forgive his. I am asked to forgive enemies who can hurt me. God is only asked to forgive enemies who cannot hurt him. He certainly ought to be as generous as he asks us to be.
Robert Ingersoll
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When all has been considered, it seems to me to be the irresistible intuition that infinite punishment for finite sin would be unjust, and therefore wrong. We feel that even weak and erring Man would shrink from such an act. And we cannot conceive of God as acting on a lower standard of right and wrong.
Lewis Carroll (author of Alice in Wonderland), “Eternal Punishment,” Diversions and Digressions of Lewis Carroll
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It is strange to me that people can consign others to hell without a scruple. One only has to remember a toothache, not to wish it eternally on anyone.
Lucy Daugalis (daugalis@arcom.com.au)
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When I was a boy I heard tell of an old farmer in Vermont. He was dying. The minister was at his bedside--asked him if he was a Christian, if he was prepared to die. The old man answered that he had made no preparation, that he was not a Christian, that he had never done anything but work. The preacher said that he could give him no hope unless he had faith in Christ, and that if he had no faith his soul would certainly be lost.
The old man was not frightened. He was perfectly calm. In a weak and broken voice he said, “Mr. Preacher, I suppose you noticed my farm. My wife and I came here more than fifty years ago. We were just married. It was a forest then and the land was covered with stones. I cut down the trees, burned the logs, picked up the stones, and laid the walls. My wife spun and wove and worked every moment. We raised and educated our children--denied ourselves. During all these years my wife never had a good dress, or a decent bonnet. I never had a good suit of clothes. We lived on the plainest food. Our hands, our bodies are deformed by toil. We never had a vacation. We loved each other and the children. That is the only luxury we ever had. Now I am about to die and you ask me if I am prepared. Mr. Preacher, I have no fear of the future, no terror of any other world. There may be such a place as hell--but if there is, you never can make me believe that it’s any worse than old Vermont.”
Robert Ingersoll, “Why I Am An Agnostic”
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Do I believe in eternal punishment? Hell no. I always believed God could get his revenge in far less time.
Robert Ingersoll
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God recently remodeled hell. He replaced the flames of eternal damnation with a microwave. Now, instead of taking forever, His revenge is complete in seconds. The only hard part is hanging on while the plate rotates.
E.T.B.
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An idea, which has terrified millions, claims that some of us will go to a place called Hell, where we will suffer eternal torture. This does not scare me because, when I try to imagine a Mind behind this universe, I cannot conceive that Mind, usually called “God,” as totally mad. I mean, guys, compare that “God” with the worst monsters you can think of--Adolph Hitler, Joe Stalin, that sort of guy. None of them ever inflicted more than finite pain on their victims. Even de Sade, in his sado-masochistic fantasy novels, never devised an unlimited torture. The idea that the Mind of Creation (if such exists) wants to torture some of its critters for endless infinities of infinities seems too absurd to take seriously. Such a deranged Mind could not create a mud hut, much less the exquisitely mathematical universe around us.
If such a monster-God did exist, the sane attitude would consist of practicing the Buddhist virtue of compassion. Don’t give way to hatred: try to understand and forgive him. Maybe He will recover his wits some day.
Robert Anton Wilson, “Cheerful Reflections on Death and Dying,” Gnoware, February 1999
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There are in fact so many strong Biblical, doctrinal, and logical arguments against the existence of a literal hell that this question naturally arises: Why do the churches teach it and why do people often believe it?...The churches tend to believe that fear, rather than love conquers all.
Robert Short, Methodist clergyman, U.S. Catholic, April 1980
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Primates often have trouble imagining a universe not run by an angry alpha male.
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Any infinite Being who feels it is their duty to torture me for eternity, should switch to decaf.
E.T.B.
Have you studied the pre-Christian origins of the fiery hell concept among intertestamental writings?
ReplyDeleteHuge booklist concerning heaven and hell, their history, origins, and much more:
http://www.amazon.com/wishlist/2R6FHJ32SQD9P/ref=cm_wl_rlist_go
o_O
ReplyDeleteokay...
It looks like an accurate depiction of your "message of salvation." If you see a discrepancy, you can certainly point it out. But you might want to avoid saying "slave to sin." That just indicates that your god is "pulling people's strings" to make them "deserving of hell."
ReplyDeleteEdward,
ReplyDeleteWhoa boy... You did earn points quoting the brilliant mind of Mr. Bill Hicks. There is a soft spot in my heart for that man. I sure wish I had the opportunity to witness to him before his untimely departing. He, as well as many others, championed me to desperately pray that God judges on a curve. In my earlier years I related very much to his angst.
Some of your other quotes/points were addressed in past posts. "Why Disease and Suffering?"and "What's the Purpose of Evil?", both comes to mind.
We, as Christians, have been set free so that we can serve God and one another under the authority of Jesus our master. Some Atheists just will not humble themselves to do just that, be set free.
No one has free will to do whatever they want. Ted Bundy sure tried to do whatever he wanted but we did not allow it. (good post if you haven't read yet)
Look, I may "want" to go out drinking and then drive myself home but that will not be tolerated by our society. I am certainly not "free" to choose any weapon living here in California. In a sense, I am a "slave" to California Laws. Like Atheists, I can rebel against the "establishment" in disobedience but I will have to suffer the consequences like anyone else. What is so wrong with conformity? Pride? You do so in a society that you may or may not agree with, but since it is our laws you abide by them. Why not abide by God's Law?
Plus, I did want to mention the brilliant discussion by Dr. Bahnsen in a earlier post called Foreordination and Human Responsibility. As our good friend Sye suggested "you might want to check out 4:45 of part 7."
ReplyDeletePvb,
ReplyDeleteThat just indicates that your god is "pulling people's strings" to make them "deserving of hell."
Everyone serves a god. There are no exceptions. We all have masters. Either you will serve the devil and sin willingly or you will surrender yourself to God in desperation and hatred of sin. According to God's Word, there is no gray.
Dan said:
ReplyDelete"Everyone serves a god. There are no exceptions. We all have masters."Hmmm...really?
There are no exceptionsAre you absolutely sure about this?
OK then...
Which God does your God serve?
Rhiggs,
ReplyDeleteAs humans, we worship something, no exceptions. That is why I called it god with a little g. Now God (big G) is the perfect and omnipotent and omniscient originator and ruler of the universe. He is, by name, the object of worship for us all. He is the reason why people worship. I guess I could have, though I feel unnecessary, clarified for "everyone" to mean all humans. Even Jesus worshiped God.
God worships himself?
ReplyDeleteNarcissist
Dan:
ReplyDelete"I guess I could have, though I feel unnecessary, clarified for 'everyone' to mean all humans."
It doesn't help, as the assertion is without merit. I do not worship. It is as simple as that. I have had a lot of bible thumpers say "no, you really worship <insert nonsense here>." But the fact that you or your "holy book" claim that "everyone worships" doesn't make it so.
Love me or roast in hell.
ReplyDeleteThat's not love.
That's blackmail.
Just shows religions are about control. It was actually semi-successful when very few people were educated. It now remains as a cultural artifact that is merely an engine of grief and a roadblock to progress.
What god do I serve Dan?
ReplyDeleteRhiggs,
ReplyDeleteWhat god do you serve? I have no clue. If you are an Atheist I would take the wild guess of self. You may worship money, meth, or even women I have no clue. You, being honest with self, would be the best person to answer that question. There is yet another thing that distinguishes Christians from non believers or false converts. People, at least, have a definitive understanding who we worship. Christ.
Dan,
ReplyDeleteWorship can be defined as:
1. To honor and love as a deity.
2. To regard with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion.
If your definition is different, please correct me.
Your examples were that I might worship myself, money, meth and/or women.
None of those do I honor and love as a deity (definition 1). That is plainly ridiculous.
As for definition 2:
I imagine I feel the same way as you do about most of the above things.
I consider myself to be a good person but I certainly don't regard myself with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion. Probably the only difference between us in how we regard ourselves is that you live life believing that you are a sinner, whereas I just live life.
In the world we live, money makes life easier, so most of us work jobs to earn it. I don't do this because I love money, I do it because I can use that money to better my life and the lives of my family.
I don't use meth.
I don't regard women with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion. I may regard some women in this way, e.g. my partner and my mother, but I also regard some men in this way, e.g. my father. I'm sure you regard your wife with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion, don't you? It's just love, not worship.
So you see non-Christians also have a definitive understanding who we worship. No-one.
rhiggs last post pretty much sums it up, Dan.
ReplyDeleteAs humans, we worship something, no exceptions.
Wrong. You're applying a religious mindset over to broad a canvas. You're assuming that because you're religious, that everybody must be religious. Sorry, that's wrong.
Even if the "bible" says it. It's not like it'd be the first time...
Also, Dan said this in the post:
ReplyDeleteI guess what Atheists don't understand is that they currently don't have free will, they are a slave to sin. (Romans 6:16-19, Romans 7:14-25) God is here to save them from that vassalage to give them freedom from sin. So they'll not end up in the place very deserving for sinners.
Right well if we don't have free will then what's the point? We can't change our positions or our mindsets.
1. God made us
2. We have no free will and are slaves to sin.
3. God, being omniscient and perfect, knew this in advance and so purposely made us to be slaves to sin.
Conclusion: God is responsible for the sin, not us. We are mere puppets with no free will.
But we should worship God because he will save us from sin. The very same sin he made us commit in the first place?
Ha! No deal...
Dan also said:
ReplyDeleteYou do so in a society that you may or may not agree with, but since it is our laws you abide by them. Why not abide by God's Law?.
People don't just obey human laws because they are afraid of punishment Dan. Some people actually agree with the laws to begin with. Some people can think for themselves and come up with the concept of murder being wrong. You, on the other hand, seem to only think murder is wrong because God says so.
That is sick.
BTW please don't ask where my moral absolutes come from. We have been down this road before and you really don't do presuppositionalism all that well. 'Murder is wrong' is an innate moral position necessary for survival in social animals. The proof for this is the impossibility of the contrary. Think about it.
Also, if it is the punishment itself that deters you, then at least punishments for breaking human laws are observable. You can see people being arrested and locked up. There has never ever been one single shred of evidence for Hell...
Look, here is a photo of death row, San Quentin, taken by an actual camera. That is called evidence.
Can you find a photo of Hell?
Rhiggs,
ReplyDeletePeople don't just obey human laws because they are afraid of punishment Dan. Some people actually agree with the laws to begin with.
Brilliant observation. Now you can never throw that at me. You see...
People don't just obey God and His Laws because they are afraid of punishment Dan. Some people actually agree with Him the Laws to begin with.
Can you find a photo of Hell?
Not at the moment but the Bible paints a good picture:
The Bible describes Hell as unquenchable fire,(Mark 9:43) outer darkness,(Matthew 22:13) a furnace of fire and a place where people wail and gnash their teeth,(Matthew 13:42) and a lake of fire.(Revelation 20:15) where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched,(Mark 9:48) and where people are in agony in flames.(Luke 16:24)
Perhaps the most terrifying passage in the Bible describing hell says that men will "drink the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night." (Revelation 14:10-11)
Are you absolutely sure you have truth on your side?
Dan said,
ReplyDeleteSome people actually agree with Him the Laws to begin with.
OK great. I'm glad to hear you think that murder is wrong and that your position on this is not a result of God's law. Of course, that means that if God commanded you to murder, you would resist and not do it, right? If he told you to kill your son, like he told Abraham to kill Isaac, you would say:
"No God, I won't do it because murder is wrong and I believe that innately, not necessarily from your laws which you are now temporarily breaking".
You would say that, wouldn't you Dan?
Also, I think you missed my point about Hell Dan. You asked why people follow man's laws but not God's.
I answered that one reason may be that there is no evidence that God's punishment, Hell, even exists. You have just confirmed that. Thanks.
BTW the Lord of the Rings paints a good picture of Mordor:
"One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its black gates are guarded by more than just orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume".
Fiction can be very descriptive, can't it...
Rhiggs,
ReplyDelete"No God, I won't do it because murder is wrong and I believe that innately, not necessarily from your laws which you are now temporarily breaking".
You would say that, wouldn't you Dan?
God did not and does not break the Laws because the Laws are from his unchanging nature.
He doesn't say "Don't lie because I told you not too" He might say "Don't lie because I don't lie"
God would never tell me to murder because He doesn't murder. And no capital punishment is not murder. I cannot explain all the details of every situation but I trust God to do the very right thing always. I guess that is the difference between you and I, trust.
Like Atheists, I can rebel against the "establishment" in disobedience but I will have to suffer the consequences like anyone else.
ReplyDelete...okay so far...
What is so wrong with conformity?
It's servile, autonomous drollery. Why would anyone want to be complete conformists? Show some personality -- cease conforming with respect to something. Even in your tiny world, you'd say there is a reason we all have different fingerprints, or DNA sequences, wouldn't you? Why don't we conform and have identical genetic code, or fingerprints, or facial features, or...
Pride?
Choice?
You [conform] in a society that you may or may not agree with, but since it is our laws you abide by them. Why not abide by God's Law?nbsp;
I would happily abide by god's law, if I had a conscious, counted, and informed vote as to what those laws were. You see, insofar as I conform to the majority of laws in [my home municipality], I am also a citizen of a democratic republic, such that I get to choose what is, and what is not, a law -- at the very least, my vote, equal in value to any other eligible entity's vote, is counted.
If your god's laws were determined in such a fashion, I'd happily abide by them -- but then, this may be slightly disingenuous; I would abide by most of them. There are, obviously, various laws in [my home municipality] which I consciously break, as I disagree with them. As it turns out, every one of these is at worst a misdemeanor, so I have little fear of repercussion from the authorities...
Curiously, a "misdemeanor," versus a "felony," and whatever other category of crime exists in [my home municipality], are all categories of crimes -- some crimes, then, are far worse than others.
How does that match up with your god's laws?
If I were prosecuted for any of the various traffic infractions and misdemeanors which I may opt to commit, in many cases, the case would be dismissed following a brief appearance before a jury of my peers, or, in some cases, by a lone [elected, or appointed by elected officials,] judge. The more egregious the crime, the more care is taken in ensuring a right of trial by jury -- by my peers.
How does that match up with your god's laws?
------------------
You're right, in a sense, Danny-boy, we don't have a choice in your system. It is to this lack of choice that we most stridently object -- which decision, I suppose, is in and of itself devoid of choice -- and which you seem perfectly willing to embrace in your bland conformity to imaginary, dictated laws, in your imagined totalitarianism. If that does it for you, then enjoy, but it does not do it for me.
If I cannot have a conscious, informed say in my fate, then fuck all. If you're happy with your misguided and evidently tiny god and his arbitrary laws, then, again, enjoy. Me? Non servium.
--
Stan
Dan:
ReplyDeleteIt looks like murder to me. Indeed, you are doing little more than saying "I don't know how it's different from murder but he assures me it isn't murder when he does it." Now, I think your god is lying to you. You are not in a position to argue against that you just trust him when he says that he is not.
So, consider the question. If you are wrong about your god and he is comparable to Hitler (I justify the comparison by the reading of Deuteronomy itself. It mirrors that which we find wicked in what he did.) would your defense be that you were following orders? Would you let his commands supersede your judgement about what is and is not murder?
What Stan said...
ReplyDeleteDan,
I guess that is the difference between you and I, trust.
If you mean trust in your ficticious God who loves me but will burn me for all eternity just for not believing in him due to the complete lack of evidence, then we agree.
If you mean trust in general, then we disagree. I trust some people in my life. Not all, but some.
So it would be more accurate for you to say:
"I guess that is the difference between you and I, trust in God."
I would happily agree. I do not trust egotistical maniancs who demand devotion and punish those who dare not fall into line with eternal torture.
Stan and even Rhiggs,
ReplyDeleteNon servium huh? Powerful statement. I guess then your fate will be clear to all of us including you.
That brilliant mind goo will be spilled wastefully indeed.
Dan, your glib, three-sentence "responses" to detailed posts is insulting. You too often pick out only a single statement -- usually one of the last statements in a post, and often an intentional witticism -- and reply only to it, ignoring any of the rest of the post.
ReplyDeleteIf you wouldn't mind, knock it off. If you cannot be bothered to post a reasoned response, then do us both a favor and just abstain from responding at all, or at least note that you'll be back later for a more thorough response. Your issue of conformity was trounced, yet you said nothing. The legislative process was questioned, yet you said nothing. The categorization of law/punishment was brought into question, yet you said nothing.
All you did, then, was offer a trite, unimpressive response to a parting shot, which you had the audacity to embellish with a link to this very topic.
Thanks?
--
Stan
Stan,
ReplyDeleteDan, your glib, three-sentence "responses" to detailed posts is insulting.
You're right, I apologize. I admit that I give up at times with you. I enjoy the back and forth but sometimes I agree with you. I don't comment at times because I get frustrated with you, I cannot argue with your logic, or I think you are being a dork and a host of other viewpoints. I also get overwhelmed sometimes and I fight thoughts of stopping the blog to tend to my children. My oldest often has to clean up the baby after lunch or the kids are not allowed to go outside so I can respond to comments. It is a balance and you will always lose to my kids, deal with it.
Your issue of conformity was trounced
Fine I will respond (as my kids are begging to go outside):
Why would anyone want to be complete conformists?
Beats me, I don't conform to anything or anyone on this planet.
Show some personality -- cease conforming with respect to something.
I have, I refuse to conform to this worlds systems and beliefs. I refuse to conform to the consensus of evolution and millions of years beliefs and evil doings. If you really think about it it is you who is the conformist. That is why you believe that this world is a good place and that humans are, for the most part, good.
Even in your tiny world, you'd say there is a reason we all have different fingerprints, or DNA sequences, wouldn't you?
Yes, God made us unique and individual, the body of Christ all play a part and a role to make a difference in this world. We cannot all be hands or all feet we all need to be different to work as a system. You couldn't get far with cars being only engines.
I would happily abide by god's law, if I had a conscious, counted, and informed vote as to what those laws were.
Interesting point, I cannot disagree with this as a man. Unfortunately I don't have a say in our salvation. God gave us merely one path and one way so we can either take it or leave it. I choose to take it. I love the simplicity of it also. Did you ever go to a restaurant with thousands of choices? You wind up waiting for a extremely long time to wait for others to make up their minds of what they want. I am more of a quick to decide slow to change kind of guy.
There are, obviously, various laws in [my home municipality] which I consciously break, as I disagree with them. As it turns out, every one of these is at worst a misdemeanor, so I have little fear of repercussion from the authorities...
I am fully OK with that in our society. Sometimes civil disobedience is necessary to invoke change. I am proud of black people risking being punched and kicked and even arrested by merely sitting in a "whites only" chair in a restaurant. I applaud there resistance and refusal to conform. But the subject of God is entirely different. In that case you are the whites kicking and punching the blacks in that scenario. Because you did vote for blacks to be separate. You are evil to not want to conform to God's reason, imho.
Curiously, a "misdemeanor," versus a "felony," and whatever other category of crime exists in [my home municipality], are all categories of crimes -- some crimes, then, are far worse than others.
Maybe there really is a Divina Commedia scenario in hell, I don't know. Hopefully that will be to your liking and to your satisfaction. If so would you consider that hell to be fair? How does that match up with your view of God's laws?
You're right, in a sense, Danny-boy, we don't have a choice in your system.
With good reason. Perfection doesn't need to be challenged, just trusted. Satan didn't trust "the system" either so you are in familiar company.
It is to this lack of choice that we most stridently object -- which decision, I suppose, is in and of itself devoid of choice -- and which you seem perfectly willing to embrace in your bland conformity to imaginary, dictated laws, in your imagined totalitarianism.
The problem is, like I just stated, that you want to challenge perfection. A system devised to eradicate evil so we cal all live in harmony forever and ever. A system that I trust God devised well. God has proven to me that He understands and created us. That His system of zero evil is the best scenario and that perfection is not achievable with our limited resources and thinking. I trust God to right all the wrongs in this world and depend on it with my life. I trust God to end the suffering and pain and since He promised to do that for us. I will bow to His authority and Majesty. I am in aw of His power over our souls and I trust Him to do the right thing...ALWAYS. I wish you had my viewpoints and I am frustrated that you don't.
If you're happy with your misguided and evidently tiny world and these arbitrary and sometime evil laws, then, again, enjoy. Me? I chose righteousness in Christ.
Thanks squeaky wheel I feel better for it.
*Rhiggs nudges in on Stan and Dan's conversation*
ReplyDeleteIn that case you are the whites kicking and punching the blacks in that scenario. Because you did vote for blacks to be separate.
????
Stan. What's this?
;)
Rhiggs, I'm as confused as you, when it comes to deciphering the random mess of firing neurons that comprise Dan's dysfunctional brain...
ReplyDeleteHe said:
What is so wrong with conformity? Pride? You do so in a society that you may or may not agree with, but since it is our laws you abide by them. Why not abide by God's Law?
I kicked his cage, and then he came back with the following:
I don't conform to anything or anyone on this planet.
...
I refuse to conform to the consensus of evolution and millions of years beliefs and evil doings. If you really think about it it is you who is the conformist.
So he's directly contradicted yourself in only a few paragraphs, by responding to a direct response to himself, yet evidently forgetting entirely what he had said initially...
Which is it, Dan? Is conformity "cool," or is it "uncool"? Should we follow your first set of advice, and conform, or should we follow your second set, and become nonconformists?
You don't "conform to the consensus of evolution," but "what is so wrong with conformity? Pride?" I guess I should just be satisfied that you admitted that the Theory of Evolution is the consensus explanation for the origin of diversity in species on this planet...
Ah, but there are more Danisms to be mocked...
Unfortunately I don't have a say in our salvation.
So you agree that if your position is true, it is also unfortunate. Outstanding. Does this mean, then, that you are unprincipled, and will follow orders, however unfortunate or uncomfortable? Great job exercising that gift of free will... Unlike you, I will not embrace an unfortunate circumstance, but will seek to make it rather a fortunate circumstance, if possible, or to at least remove the unfortunate aspects of it.
God gave us merely one path and one way so we can either take it or leave it.
If we can take it or leave it, doesn't that imply at least two paths? But you just said there is only one path... Does this mean it all works out in the end, and your phony religion is bullshit?
I choose to take it.
I'm sure you do.
I love the simplicity of it also.
Yes, Dan, simpletons generally do enjoy simplicity...
Did you ever go to a restaurant with thousands of choices? You wind up waiting for a extremely long time to wait for others to make up their minds of what they want.
Dan's preferred restaurant menu:
1. Edible
2. Burnt
Note: no substitutions, no refunds, no exchanges. Once an order is taken, it is final. Some patrons who order "Edible" food will nonetheless receive "Burnt" food, and vice versa. What the waiter serves is what you get, and even if you explicitly ordered the other option, your waiter knows what you really wanted, which is what you receive in the end.
Heh.
I am more of a quick to decide slow to change kind of guy.
That's great. You're quick to demonstrate how slow you are. Thanks, Captain Obvious.
I am proud of black people risking being punched and kicked and even arrested by merely sitting in a "whites only" chair in a restaurant. I applaud there [sic] resistance and refusal to conform.
"There"? Some people just don't learn.
You are evil to not want to conform to God's reason, imho.
Does "imho" stand for, "in my hubrised position"? Just checking. Anyway, didn't you just say you applauded nonconformity, yet now you're saying nonconformity is evil?
Incidentally, I love the fact that you think, because I want to include people, by destroying the exclusive nature of your religion, that I am the nigger-kicking white. That's rich. You would only have certain classes of people in your heavenly Glee Club, including misogyny, bigotry, and various other specific forms of discrimination, yet you have the audacity to say that you are analogous to the abolitionists?
Right. You're Harriet Beecher Stowe, if anything. You're the one advocating separation -- not just in Liberia, but in a whole other ethereal realm, and for eternity.
Whites only? Try True Christians™ only; hubris required.
Why don't you take just a moment to smell what you're shoveling.
--
Stan
Stan
ReplyDeleteYou crack me up dude, you do have good comedy game I will say that.
Which is it, Dan? Is conformity "cool," or is it "uncool"?
Conformity to God? Cool.
Conformity to this world? Uncool.
That was the thrust of my points. You are resisting to conform to God as you stated but you conform everyday to this world. So I posed the question of "What is wrong with conformity?" (to God) Pride?
Sorry I was not as clear for the slower people. You're quick to demonstrate how slow you are? :7)
As I said I am more of a quick to decide slow to change kind of guy.
That's great. You're quick to demonstrate how slow you are. Thanks, Captain Obvious.
From The Power Of A Made Up Mind by Jeffrey Benson: Those who reach decisions promptly and definitely know what they want and generally get it. This is a common trait of all leaders in every walk of life. They decide quickly and firmly.
When you reach a decision, be slow to change it!
·Analysis of several million-dollar earners shows that every one of them had the habit of reaching decisions very promptly and changing these decisions very slowly, if at all.
Those who fail do just the opposite. The have the habit of reaching decisions very slowly and changing them very quickly.
It's a shame you are not one of us Stan. Conform.
Whites only? Try True Christians™ only; hubris required.
Yes, I concede that I am a bigot to evil. Thank God!
Dan:
ReplyDelete"Yes, I concede that I am a bigot to evil."
Every wicked group based on hate claims its target is evil. It really doesn't take much. Once you convince your group that your target is evil, its members won't think twice about killing little children. "It's not murder. It's eradicating evil."