December 18, 2009

The Rise of Atheism (Unhappiness)

There is some statistics that are relevant to recent discussion about kids and religion. The results in the American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS) were interesting and quite revealing. Apparently the comparison of past to present claims of religious status is changing America in a big way.

An article said that, So many Americans claim no religion at all (15%, up from 8% in 1990), that this category now outranks every other major U.S. religious group except Catholics and Baptists. In a nation that has long been mostly Christian, "the challenge to Christianity … does not come from other religions but from a rejection of all forms of organized religion," the report concludes.

The same study concluded that we, as Christians, are staying about the same. This is probably because we are already written in the Book of Life in ink that cannot be erased.

So, this report also shows that actual soundly saved Christians do not have much fluctuation in beliefs and do not fall away and become ex-Christians as some Atheists attempt to claim.

The percentage of those who choose a generic label, calling themselves simply Christian, Protestant, non-denominational, evangelical or "born again," was 14.2%, about the same as in 1990.

Also, a study has found that spirituality and higher levels of religious behavior account for 5% of an adult's happiness. The results of the UBC study came as a surprise: to 16.5% of children's happiness can be accounted for by spirituality.

"From our perspective, it's a whopping big effect," said Holder. "I expected it to be much less — I thought their spirituality would be too immature to account for their well-being."
The less happier you are, the less God is in your life. Do you now see a void of hope in the lie of Atheism? Where is the justification for those Death Camps? So why don't you let those kids choose happiness/spirituality instead of indoctrinating them? Let them grow up and choose for themselves. What do you have against happiness?

49 comments:

  1. The less happier you are, the less God is in your life. Do you now see a void of hope in the lie of Atheism?
     
    Do you not see the fallacy in your thinking here?

    Where is the justification for those Death Camps?
     
    First of all, you jackass, where in hell do you get calling the atheist camps fucking DEATH CAMPS?

    You asshole. Do you have ANY idea just how insulting it is to have the people killed by the xian-influenced Third Reichs death trivialized like that?

    Do you have any idea how insulting it is to have kids camps compared to concentration camps?

    Didn't we go over this once before?

    What the hell is wrong with you? Has the "holy spirit" screwed with your head or something or are you just looking for a cheap shot?

    So why don't you let those kids choose happiness/spirituality instead of indoctrinating them?
     
    Right...like all those kids, raised in xian households CHOOSE "spirituality"? Without any influence from their parents?

    Bullshit.

    Hypocrosy at it's finest. Why's it not called indoctrintion when you people do it?

    Let them grow up and choose for themselves.
     
    That's what atheists have been saying to religious parents for decades now.

    What do you have against happiness?
     
    Nothing. What do you people have against reality?

    Dan, what are you going to do if, after those people

    The study's authors plan to conduct the same research in India to see whether children score similar results in a country not dominated by Christianity.

    come up with the same conclusion about happiness and "spirituality" with a religion that isn't yours?

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  2. The study you reference was not about belief in God nor was it about religious practice.

    "The researchers, Dr. Michael Yi and Sian Cotton at the University of Cincinnati, defined spirituality as one's sense of meaning or purpose in life or one's sense of connectedness to the sacred or divine"

    "However, counterintuitively, religious practices — including attending church, praying and meditating — had little effect on a child's happiness."

    Source

    1. Their definition of "spirituality" was very vague.
    2. One third of the sample were kids from a faith-based school, so that would further skew the figures.

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  3. Dan.
    Merry Christmas to all your family from me and mine.
    Dax

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  4. If you really want to be a good Christian and follow the teaches of Jesus Christ, I would suggest showing more tolerance and compassion towards others. I wouldn't call non-Christian activities Death Camps, as that's an intolerant move.

    Personally, I find the study you reported on to be interesting, but it doesn't convince me that Christianity is the answer. I think it shows that children need to be part of a community, and that community involvement is related to happiness.

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  5. Modern Girl,

    >>If you really want to be a good Christian and follow the teaches of Jesus Christ, I would suggest showing more tolerance and compassion towards others.

    Do you find it ironic of your intolerance to peoples intolerance?

    Secondly do you really think a camp that attempts to lead kids away from an eternal saved life with our Creator is not to be called a death camp? What would you call it? A community camp?

    Third, whoever said I was a good Christian? I am a filthy wretched sinner desperately in need of a Savior. That is why I am a Christian, I need Christ for Salvation from my wicked heart and ways. Like a friend said, Christians are not perfect, just forgiven.

    Finally it takes far more love to confront then to ignore a situation, perfect love is a constant confronter. How could you possible think that tolerance of someone being evil is love? Are you tolerant of pedophiles and their behavior?

    >>I think it shows that children need to be part of a community, and that community involvement is related to happiness.

    Actually you are wrong, Community is not a factor in this study and the study showed that belief in God and presuppositions about Him are what determines, at least in part, as to someone's happiness. No matter how you are attempting to skew it, your conclusions are unsubstantiated.

    *Broken record alert

    Do you remember what it says in Matthew 22:39 "And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself"

    But what does this truly mean? Does that mean we are to love them no matter what they do because we are sinners also? Do we coddle them in their sins, tell them God loves them no matter what? Nope Jesus was clear when he said this. He was telling us what the standard was. The way to show your love to your neighbor is to warn them and their sins will take them to hell.

    The only way you can show your love to your neighbor was outlined in Leviticus 19:17-18 "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbor, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am the LORD." (emphasis added)

    If you believe coddling is love then you are delusional. You must confront to show love to someone. Would you let a friend go and drink and drive? We will take the keys and get into your face if necessary to show that you are wrong. Get offended if you wish but I will not accept the evil wickedness of unrepentant sinning. I do not condone sin and if you shall perish because of your wickedness then so be it, without any grudge, you deserve everything coming to you.

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  6. Do you find it ironic of your intolerance to peoples intolerance?

    People can tolerate intolerance to a point. (See: First Amendment)

    Secondly do you really think a camp that attempts to lead kids away from an eternal saved life with our Creator is not to be called a death camp? What would you call it? A community camp?

    You're begging the question. Firstly, Camp Quest is more focused on critical thinking skills and doesn't "preach" atheism. As to that question, it has a title: a summer camp.

    Third, whoever said I was a good Christian? I am a filthy wretched sinner desperately in need of a Savior. That is why I am a Christian, I need Christ for Salvation from my wicked heart and ways. Like a friend said, Christians are not perfect, just forgiven.

    It's sad you see humanity this way.

    Finally it takes far more love to confront then to ignore a situation, perfect love is a constant confronter. How could you possible think that tolerance of someone being evil is love? Are you tolerant of pedophiles and their behavior?

    More begging the question.

    Also, I would like to put a spin on Godwin's law in this case. "As a discussion on morality grows longer, the possibility of someone bringing up pedophilia approaches 1."

    Actually you are wrong, Community is not a factor in this study and the study showed that belief in God and presuppositions about Him are what determines, at least in part, as to someone's happiness. No matter how you are attempting to skew it, your conclusions are unsubstantiated.

    If you have a link to the study itself, please link to it because that article showed none of that. How do they measure happiness? If the nonspiritual child had 100 Happiness Units and only 1 of those was from spirituality and the spiritual child had 10 Happiness Units, 5 of which came from spirituality then yes the percentage would be higher. Basically, what I'm saying it that percentages mean jack shit without concrete numbers. So much of the study was subjective information from the parents and teachers of the children as well. And as I stated before, their definition of spirituality is vague.

    Meh.

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  7. Also, an after thought.

    Correlation does not imply causation.

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  8. Dan,
    I don't think you understand the definition of "ironic."

    I think Christian camps are more of death camps, because they focus on death and the afterlife and this supposed "eternal salvation" whereas a secular camp would probably focus more on LIFE and affirming life.

    I agree with Yaegar that it's sad you see humanity the way you do. If you truly believe that, then why do you think we are worthy to be saved?

    Even if the study did not measure community, that doesn't mean it not a possible confounding variable.

    As for your ramble about sin and Hell and me, I'd like to quote Great Big Sea (a Canadian band):

    "Love me know while we're alive/
    It's best thing we can do/
    We'll have no time upon Cloud 9/
    So Heaven on Earth will have to do"

    That's how I see it. Love humanity for what humanity is - a bunch of flawed organisms that make mistakes.

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  9. Modern Girl,

    Pot meet kettle.

    >>I think Christian camps are more of death camps,...

    If you really want to be a good person I would suggest showing more tolerance and compassion towards others. I wouldn't call Christian activities Death Camps, as that's an intolerant move.

    :7)

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  10. If anything Camp Quest helps kids understand religious belief a bit more with the pink unicorn challenge. They get $100 if any of the kids can prove an invisible pink unicorn doesn't exist on the campgrounds. It still has not been claimed.

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  11. Hi there folks. Hmm...
    Can you see what Dan is doing here?
    I quote:
    "Dan +†+ said...
    Modern Girl,

    Pot meet kettle.

    >>I think Christian camps are more of death camps,...

    If you really want to be a good person I would suggest showing more tolerance and compassion towards others. I wouldn't call Christian activities Death Camps, as that's an intolerant move"

    Now that's funny. He is trying to use Modern Girl's argument to defend himself. In which case it is correct ( for it defends his cause), whereas when she uses her, she is than acused of intolerant. (wtf?! O.o)

    It's, at least, funny to see that he appears to believe that he can call any camp he wants a Death Camp if he can find a logic that justifies that (barely). However, when someone says that refering to a camp he "likes", than it is something absurd and intolerant.

    These are desperate or "stupid" ways of trying to win an argument.

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  12. Correcting:
    "... whereas when she uses it, she is then acused..."

    ReplyDelete
  13. Oh.
    If you wanted for it to be ironic.
    I'm sorry, that's just pathetic.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Almeidinha- welcome. I'd love to see Brazil someday. Are there many "relapsos" there?

    Everyone: Happy Old Year's Day, and may your New Year be full of joy!

    Dan: I'll probably be in California in June. No excuses this time: lunch or else.

    cheers from chilly Vienna, zilch

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  15. Hey zilch.
    Hmm, am I supposed to be be surprised by the fact that you read my profile?
    And no, there aren't many relapsos.
    Happy new year folks! ^^

    ReplyDelete
  16. Hey Almeidinha- no, you shouldn't be surprised that I read your profile- I'm a curious guy. I even visited your blog- my Portuguese is pretty weak, but I understood most of it because of my Spanish.

    ¡Feliz Año Nuevo!

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  17. What does the empirical evidence say about the relationship between religiosity and happiness?

    From what I've seen, low religiosity and high happiness tend to coincide in the wealthiest countries:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/jurvetson/2275614130/

    http://generallythinking.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/wvs.jpg

    I haven't found a graph yet which presents happiness on one axis and religiosity on the other.

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  18. Thx zilch.
    But don't worry. I'm working on a similar version of my blog in english.

    ReplyDelete
  19. DAN said - Third, whoever said I was a good Christian? I am a filthy wretched sinner desperately in need of a Savior. That is why I am a Christian, I need Christ for Salvation from my wicked heart and ways. Like a friend said, Christians are not perfect, just forgiven.


    So... basicly "Jesus loves you but everyone else thinks your a cunt!"

    Does your creator forgive anyone for anything eg. was Hilter forgivin? Therefore you can justify any crime no matter how bad because in the end you believe will be forgiven if asked.

    How about you stop being an arsehole an evolve your morals

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  20. ANTZILLA,

    >>Does your creator forgive anyone for anything

    Yes, if you repent and trust Him.

    >>eg. was Hilter forgivin?

    I have no clue, did he repent and trust in Christ? If so then yes.

    I read that the cannibal serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer was saved right before his cell mate mutilated him.

    Not only does God forgive you but He even forgets your sins (Heb. 8:12) If you repent (turn away from sinning) and put your entire life, trust, and faith in Christ that is.

    It was a legal transaction. You broke God's Law (the Ten Commandments), and Jesus paid your fine. That means that God can legally dismiss your case. You can leave the courtroom on the Day of Judgment because another paid your fine. Does that make sense? Great news huh? What is stopping you from receiving that gift?

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  21. I have evolved morals. I do not sin. (however i do enjoy apples)... So you sin recieve a "gift" from a god (clear your conscience). What stops you from resining? doesn't your GOD want you learn from your mistakes. Oh I guess if you did "learn" from them that would be evolution. thus more proof of your God being infaillible. What benifit to your victims does your God forgiving you serve? So when murder goes to court you think he should be able to argue that the reason for his actions is some rib woman ate an apples after being talked to by a snake.

    So your God made humans, humans eat apple, God murders son, Sinning ok, ask forgivness.

    WAKE THE FUCK UP!!!!! EVOLVE OR DIE.

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  22. About the 10 Comandments. Why aren't they more reflective of what we have evolved to expect from eachother. 1 - thou shall so emphathy, 2 - thou shall be honest, 3 - thou shall be responible for own actions, 4 - thou shall be trustworthy etc.

    Isn't a depiction of a toutured human carcus nailed to a cross a graven image?

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  23. >>I have evolved morals.

    So then by that logic, someday it may be OK to molest children according to your worldview?

    >>I do not sin.

    O'rly? Would you like to go through the Commandments to see? You cannot be claiming that you are perfect then? You have never broken any Commandments?

    >>What stops you from resining(sic)?

    Jesus Christ Himself. (John 10:28-30)

    >>doesn't your GOD want you learn from your mistakes.

    Absolutely! That is why he gave us His 66 love letters that explains all of it.

    >>Oh I guess if you did "learn" from them that would be evolution. thus more proof of your God being infaillible(sic).

    So you are blaming God for your wickedness? Remember what even Albert Einstein said about God.

    >>What benifit(sic) to your victims does your God forgiving you serve?

    Great question, I wrestle with that one myself. I trust God will make all things right though. Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death..."

    >>So when murder goes to court you think he should be able to argue that the reason for his actions is some rib woman ate an apples after being talked to by a snake.

    Not at all. That excuse didn't work for Adam either. God punished harshly for that one.

    >>So your God made humans,

    Yes.

    >>humans eat apple,

    Luke 4:4 "And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God."

    >>God murders son,

    God came as a man here on earth to pay for all your sins.

    >>Sinning ok

    Oops, you are mixing the atheistic worldview with the Christian worldview. Common mistake.

    >>ask forgivness(sic).

    Good start but what good is it to ask forgiveness if you continue sinning? Repentance would be the next logical following.

    >>EVOLVE OR DIE.

    Philippians 1:21 "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain."

    >>Why aren't they more reflective of what we have evolved to expect from eachother(sic).

    Then it would be a lie. They are not a marketing tool but are the exact words from God. BTW if that is what you believe then you may have broken the 2nd Commandment and created a god to suite yourself. I thought you said you do not sin?

    >>Isn't a depiction of a toutured(sic) human carcus(sic) nailed to a cross a graven image?

    Possibly, if that is what you are worshiping. I worship Jesus the resurrected God that died in my place to save my soul. Personally, I worship the living Christ.

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  24. Dan
    It was a legal transaction. You broke God's Law (the Ten Commandments), and Jesus paid your fine. That means that God can legally dismiss your case. You can leave the courtroom on the Day of Judgment because another paid your fine. Does that make sense?
     
    It would if you could explain to me just how a measly three days of death for him is somehow equal to an eternity of burning in hell for any one of us!

    Basic mathematics. If Jesus "paid the fine" for our sin, if he's supposed to have paid the penalty, then he should still be in hell, for the same amount of time that we would be.

    THAT is a sacrifice. As it is, all that a christian is really able to say is this:

    Jesus had a bad weekend for your sins.

    Then of course, there is the problem of what happens if the christian sins even in his mind at the point that he dies.

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  25. Reynold,

    >>if you could explain to me just how a measly three days of death for him is somehow equal to an eternity of burning in hell for any one of us!

    If it is good enough for God it is good enough for me. Are you not satisfied as to the treatment of a perfect sinless man?

    Wasn't it William Blackstone who said "Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer,"

    Let me ask you, in our justice system, would it be just to let a thousand guilty people go free then to let one innocent man go to prison?

    >>If Jesus "paid the fine" for our sin, if he's supposed to have paid the penalty, then he should still be in hell, for the same amount of time that we would be.

    Jesus did pay the fine and the penalty of sin is Death.(Romans 6:23)

    He literally died for your sins. THAT is a sacrifice indeed.

    >>Then of course, there is the problem of what happens if the christian sins even in his mind at the point that he dies.

    Sinning and living in sin are the difference here. One is still a Christian and the other is pretending to be one.

    Are you ready now to repent and trust in our Savior, our Lord Jesus Christ?

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  26. Reynold,

    >>if you could explain to me just how a measly three days of death for him is somehow equal to an eternity of burning in hell for any one of us!


    If it is good enough for God it is good enough for me. Are you not satisfied as to the treatment of a perfect sinless man?
     
    Oh really?

    Isn't it obvious? 3 days versus an eternity. That's not even a down-payment for sin.

    You didn't even try to deal with the problem. You just said "if it's good enough for God, it's good enough for me". As a typical fundy, you just blindly accepted it.

    No surprise.

    So of course I'm not satisfied. He paid a trifling price. So Jesus had a bad weekend for our sins. Big deal. Look at what supposed to happen to us.


    Wasn't it William Blackstone who said "Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer,"

    Let me ask you, in our justice system, would it be just to let a thousand guilty people go free then to let one innocent man go to prison?

     
    It'd depend on what crimes the guilty people have done, and how dangerous they are to society in general, AND also what penalty the innocent person is getting.

    If it's a comparative slap on the wrist like what Christ is supposed to have gotten (in comparison to what WE get), then there's no problem.

    Jesus did pay the fine and the penalty of sin is Death.(Romans 6:23)
     
    Yes, DEATH! What is this "eternal burning in hell" thing then?

    Guess what? Even if it were just physical death, Jesus didn't pay that either, because he did not stay dead!

    He literally died for your sins. THAT is a sacrifice indeed.
     
    As I said, so he had a bad weekend for my sins. Big deal. If the penalty is suffering forever in hell, and THAT'S what Jesus did, THEN that'd be a real sacrifice.

    Are you ready now to repent and trust in our Savior, our Lord Jesus Christ?
     
    Let me know when you've shown that he actually exists in the first place. You've never done that.

    Hell, you've never even admitted your "mistake" if mistake it was, when you said that I'd turn the Jews over to the Nazis when in reality I said I'd just lie to throw the Nazis off the trail.

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  27. "Jesus had a bad weekend for my sins."

    LOL. Can I get that on a t-shirt?

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  28. Reynold,

    >>Let me know when you've shown that he actually exists in the first place. You've never done that.

    I don't have to, God's collective natural and special revelation have revealed the truth of His existence to you.

    >>Hell, you've never even admitted your "mistake" if mistake it was, when you said that I'd turn the Jews over to the Nazis when in reality I said I'd just lie to throw the Nazis off the trail.

    I thought we have been through all that already but you made it sound as if endangering your family would not be worth saving Jews, or something to that effect.

    You said "All you've done is needlessly endanger both the lives of the Jews you're hiding, and your family"

    As if protecting Jews and fighting was a needless endeavor. You may be the run, hide, and lie, kind of person like the RCC, but I am just the stand on what is right, fight to the death for liberty, kind of guy.

    I remember the RCC being silent during those Nazi days. If the church would of just made a stand and condemn the Nazis actions the history may have looked very different. They hid the Jews and lied to the Nazi's just like you are promoting and look at the results. The shameful acts of the RCC are inexcusable. Go watch "Constantine's Sword" for more about that subject. It would be worth the rental, it is now streamable on Netflix.

    Don't be so thinned skinned or hold a grudge if I offended you though, I was merely making a point. I don't see you apologizing for your foul language and blaspheming either.

    I will continue to believe that you are a fair man and that if my family needed your help that you would be there for us and would defend our liberty if it ever came to that.

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  29. Oh Reynold, that link to "Sinless Jesus?" was comically entertaining. I don't think it would be worth refuting it because it's just contemptuous towards Christ. I may do a post about it, but I doubt it. I just cannot believe that even you hold that to be convincing and believable. Thanks for that though.

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  30. Why are Creationist obsest with child molestation. Everywhere I try and find evidence for creation, all i get is God loving weirdo's going on about child molestation. Humans have evolved morals based on what is best for the whole community. So no it is not in our nature to molest childeren.nor will it ever be! However when groups of people isolate themselfs (religous groups) from the rest of society, then base there beliefs (morals) on some fairy tales (bible) there morals collapes without the correction/intolerence from the broader comminity.

    So maybe you could help the rest of us understand what justifercation you (religous) are using when commiting these crimes? Is it because there not allowed to marry? Is it because "we'll the bible doesn't say not to do it, so it must be ok"?

    What proof is there that the bible is the words of a creator and not made up by man? Claiming it to be the word of god was the greatest marketing tool ever.

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  31. Dan:
    As if protecting Jews and fighting was a needless endeavor.
     

    I never said it was; just that in that circumstance, you're going about it the wrong way.

    You may be the run, hide, and lie, kind of person like the RCC,
     

    "like the RCC"? What? The anti-semitism of the RCC is a well-known historical fact, as that link of yours shows. (looks like a good educational movie).

    Thing is, how in hell can you compare me to those guys? They were anti-semitic, I'm not.

    You wonder why I swear at you when you make dumb, off-base generalizations like that?

    Not only that, but you're making an over-generalization from one situation You know what they say: People who generalize are @$$holes.


    but I am just the stand on what is right, fight to the death for liberty, kind of guy.a
     
    You're suicidal, and your antics would get you all killed. My way would at least have a chance in hell of working to throw the Nazis off. Your way is certain death for you all.

    If the church would of just made a stand and condemn the Nazis actions the history may have looked very different. They hid the Jews and lied to the Nazi's just like you are promoting and look at the results.
     
    Look at what would happen if ONE person, you, would try to stand up to them instead of trying to trick them. Certain death. My way wasn't guaranteed, but yours is, as I said: Certain death.

    I say again: If you're stupid enough to tell the nazis that you're hiding Jews, then you're going to die. What do you think the Jews would do if you told them that was how you'd "protect" them?

    You do know that people have hidden Jews from the Nazis, right?

    I even mentioned before that in the Old Testament, there's the story about the prostitute who hid Joshua's spies. That worked out. She lied to protect them, and there was no punishment from God.

    She would not have been able to fight off the soldiers who were looking for those spies.

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  32. Now, as to the links (plural) that I gave about "sinless Jesus", you said you could easily refute them, but you didn't.

    I'll leave it up to the readers to decide.


    Dan +†+ said...

    Reynold,

    >>Let me know when you've shown that he actually exists in the first place. You've never done that.


    I don't have to, God's collective natural and special revelation have revealed the truth of His existence to you.
     
    Dan, think. If that was at all true, then what are missionaries for?

    If you say that they came to tell the people how to "get saved" from your god's wrath, you still have to answer why:

    1) "god" waited so long to help them out, several centuries after the "way to salvation" (Jesus) was provided

    2) Why did they "make up" so many false gods if your god is revealed in nature.

    Nature tells us nothing.


    Besides, how would you handle a Muslim who said that his god is revealed through "nature"?

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  33. Agh. I forgot to include some results of Catholics hiding Jews. Sometimes it did work out:


    Sure, she eventually did get caught, but she did save some in the meantime.

    They're gathering some such stories here.

    Some more examples are hiding here

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  34. >>Thing is, how in hell can you compare me to those guys? They were anti-semitic, I'm not.

    First, many were not anti-Semitic. The RCC may have been, but the individual priests and nuns as well as others were not, they risked life and limb to save those Jews. They loved their neighbors, like the stories you linked to. They had good intentions to do the right thing. My point is to ask ourselves if stealing food to feed a family is righteous? Is breaking Commandments, for any reason, good? I would say no and you would, of course, say yes. That is the moral dichotomy of this example. The Commandments are not a factor for you at all. The real kicker is the Commandments are not for me they are for people like you. (1 Timothy 1:9-10, Romans 7:7-8)

    >>People who generalize are @$$holes.

    Isn't that a generalization itself? (*snicker)

    >>You're suicidal, and your antics would get you all killed.

    Yes that is what you believe to be true but that is not necessarily true. Remember that you linked to a story that the woman died and did what you said you would do. But I do understand that you are scared to fight, I get it. You're a frightened little boy trapped in a man's body. I get you. I would rather stand and fight for the right thing then to cower and maybe, and only maybe, survive.

    >>Your way is certain death for you all.

    Priorities is the subject here, not actions. My priorities place God first where yours puts self first. Self preservation is overrated these days.

    >> She lied to protect them, and there was no punishment from God.

    You know for certain she went to Heaven to live eternally with God?

    >>Dan, think. If that was at all true, then what are missionaries for?

    To preach the good news. Kind of like charity, you don't really give to make the recipients feel good, you give to help yourself feel good.

    "Charity is a selfish thing" there is a t-shirt for you MG.

    I just believe that God knew we need to do something to feel like we are contributing in some way.

    >>Besides, how would you handle a Muslim who said that his god is revealed through "nature"?

    I would agree with him. His "god" was revealed, that is for sure. But also, I would preach to him the good news, you know, to feel like I was contributing. God revealed nature, his god was revealed.

    Not all religions are true they are at opposition with each other. So many lead to false gods, even your religion. If you analyze the evidence out there, you would come to the same conclusion as I have. That Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior.

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  35. Dan
    But I do understand that you are scared to fight, I get it. You're a frightened little boy trapped in a man's body. I get you. I would rather stand and fight for the right thing then to cower and maybe,
    No, asshole. You don't "get" me at all. It's not my life I'm concerned about, you liar. It's the Jews lives who I promised to protect! Do you really think that, if the Nazis didn't buy my story and barged in anyway, that I'd just "cower"?

    You don't know fuck about me.

    Do you really think that ONE MAN could stand up to the ENTIRE NAZI ARMY?

    Ask a Jew sometime if, in Nazi germany he'd feel confident in a single person's ability to protect him from the Nazi hordes outside, after you go and tell the nazis that you're hiding him!

    Maybe that will let the air out of your brainless "machismo" act you've got going.

    Look at how such standoffs end in real life.

    You're a piece of work.

    First: You lie about me, saying that I'd turn the Jews over to the Nazis when in fact I said I'd try and hide them.

    Second: You never apologize after I catch you in that lie

    Third: You then accuse me of cowardice once I finally beat it into your head what I'd actually do.

    Is it any wonder why I'm always swearing at you?


    Dan the liar continues, twisting my words:

    Your way is certain death for you all.


    Priorities is the subject here, not actions. My priorities place God first where yours puts self first. Self preservation is overrated these days.
     
    And either you're lying again, or you're too dense to realize the meaning of the words at the end of what I said: "...certain death for you all". Let me explain. "you all" means the Jews you're hiding, your family, and finally yourself.


    Which leads to the fourth reason you're pissing me off:

    Fourth: You keep insisting that it's only my OWN LIFE that I'm concerned about, even though to anyone with a brain, it's obvious I'm thinking of everyone involved, not just myself.


    Let's see...reason number five:

    Fifth: You attribute with no evidence whatsoever selfish motives to non-christians who are charitable.

    Dan
    To preach the good news. Kind of like charity, you don't really give to make the recipients feel good, you give to help yourself feel good.

    I'll get on to the rest of your stupidity later.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Dan
    That is the moral dichotomy of this example. The Commandments are not a factor for you at all.
     
    More bull. All but the first commandment, and the one about "keeping the sabbath holy" which are both bullshit, are common sense.

    The Jews aren't the first ones to come up with similar commandments. The Sumerians had a similar set beforehand

    It's just that keeping a person's life safe is a far higher priority than telling a lie to a sociopath to keep that person safe.

    It's common sense. Something you don't seem to have.


    The real kicker is the Commandments are not for me they are for people like you.a
     
    The real kicker is that everyone is supposed to obey the commandments, or do you think that xians like yourself don't have to follow them?

    Remember, your holy book says that none is righteous.


    Dan:

    >>People who generalize are @$$holes.


    Isn't that a generalization itself? (*snicker)
     
    At least you seem to have understood the joke. I just hope you realize I was making one.

    Dan

    She lied to protect them, and there was no punishment from God.


    You know for certain she went to Heaven to live eternally with God?
     
    Do you know for certain the spies she protected in the first place did?

    Dan:

    Dan, think. If that was at all true, then what are missionaries for?


    To preach the good news. (you then go on about that "charity only to feel good about themselves" bullshit that I dealt with in my last comment...)


    Anyway, to deal with your "good news" point, let me repeat myself:

    If you say that they came to tell the people how to "get saved" from your god's wrath, you still have to answer why:

    1) "god" waited so long to help them out, several centuries after the "way to salvation" (Jesus) was provided

    2) Why did they "make up" so many false gods if your god is revealed in nature.

    Nature tells us nothing.



    Dan
    So many lead to false gods, even your religion.
     
    I've said it before...atheism is not a religion. If you think that, then you must think that "bald" is a hair color.

    Dan
    If you analyze the evidence out there, you would come to the same conclusion as I have. That Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior.
     
    I have analyzed the evidence, as well as the actions of the so-called "Christians".

    Your god does not exist. At least not if he cares about things like scientific accuracy in his book, and honesty in his servants...

    ReplyDelete
  37. One last thing about "charity", Dan. Do you remember in the bible how it describes "mansions" in heaven for the believers, and "riches" that can't be taken away?

    So when christians go and do something nice, are you people just being selfish, in the end?

    ReplyDelete
  38. Reynold,

    >>First: You lie about me, saying that I'd turn the Jews over to the Nazis when in fact I said I'd try and hide them.

    First, how could you possibly call observations lies? Unless you are being dishonest yourself that is. People can be mistaken with something they observe but that does not mean they are lying.

    >>Second: You never apologize after I catch you in that lie

    Again, it is not lying but misinformed or mistaken.

    >>Third: You then accuse me of cowardice once I finally beat it into your head what I'd actually do.

    No, I was merely clarifying the more accurate observation. :7)

    "Priorities is the subject here, not actions. My priorities place God first where yours puts self first. Self preservation is overrated these days." 

    >>And either you're lying again, or you're too dense to realize the meaning of the words at the end of what I said: "...certain death for you all". Let me explain. "you all" means the Jews you're hiding, your family, and finally yourself.

    By your logic, calling me dense is lying on your part but to me you are just mistaken.

    >>Fourth: You keep insisting that it's only my OWN LIFE that I'm concerned about, even though to anyone with a brain, it's obvious I'm thinking of everyone involved, not just myself.

    Yes, everyone involved including, or especially, yourself.

    >>Fifth: You attribute with no evidence whatsoever selfish motives to non-christians who are charitable.

    Correction, selfish motives to all who are charitable. You liar?

    >>The real kicker is that everyone is supposed to obey the commandments, or do you think that xians like yourself don't have to follow them?

    Again, to me you are mistaken, according to your logic you're a liar. If you read the passages that I included then you would get as to what I said. Go reread Romans 7:7-8.

    >>Remember, your holy book says that none is righteous.

    Now that is something we agree on.

    >>At least you seem to have understood the joke. I just hope you realize I was making one.

    I do now.

    >>If you say that they came to tell the people how to "get saved" from your god's wrath, you still have to answer why:

    >>1) "god" waited so long to help them out, several centuries after the "way to salvation" (Jesus) was provided

    I don't understand. Who waited? The Apostles preached non stop until their deaths. Plus, you would have to understand from our point of view, why we are here on earth. 9 months in the womb to grow and get ready for the next world, 90 years to grow and get ready for the next life. Life eternity in the place that you decided to live in.

    2) Why did they "make up" so many false gods if your god is revealed in nature.

    Now you are speaking of "human nature" in a fallen creation.

    >>Nature tells us nothing.

    Depends on what you are asking nature and I am sure many scientists would disagree with you on that point.

    >>I've said it before...atheism is not a religion. If you think that, then you must think that "bald" is a hair color.

    There you go again, like a typical evangelical atheist. A more accurate saying would be, If you think that, then you must think that "bald" is a hair style. To which I do indeed.

    ReplyDelete
  39. (con't)



    >>I have analyzed the evidence, as well as the actions of the so-called "Christians"...Your god does not exist. At least not if he cares about things like scientific accuracy in his book, and honesty in his servants...

    That is where you failed. You have even said yourself that "Remember, your holy book says that none is righteous." which is true. Then you seek truth by looking into what mankind is doing? Do you see where your mistake is? You look for God's evidence in the actions of men. Sad.

    Also, the Bible is indeed scientifically accurate especially in the sciences of Archeology and Anthropology. The Bible has yet to be refuted outright by science of any discipline. We can discuss many examples of that point if you wish, but please spare your embarrassment by claiming that evolution has, because it has not.

    >>So when christians go and do something nice, are you people just being selfish, in the end?

    Sometimes, sure. Don't get me wrong, there are examples of selfless acts out there but they are the exception instead of the rule. Again we are not perfect, just forgiven. Ready yet?

    ReplyDelete
  40. Dan +†+ said...

    Reynold,

    First: You lie about me, saying that I'd turn the Jews over to the Nazis when in fact I said I'd try and hide them.


    First, how could you possibly call observations lies? Unless you are being dishonest yourself that is. People can be mistaken with something they observe but that does not mean they are lying.
     
    I quoted the parts where I lay out what I was saying. There is no way that you can make an "observation" that I would have turned the Jews over to the Nazis unless you did some very (ie. creationist-level) selective "reading".

    Second: You never apologize after I catch you in that lie

    Again, it is not lying but misinformed or mistaken.
     
    How can you be misinformed, Dan? All you had to do was read what I wrote. It wasn't until after I repeated myself (more than once), in bold, that you stopped saying that I'd turn them over.

    You never DID apologize for your so-called "mistake" either. My point thus stands.

    Third: You then accuse me of cowardice once I finally beat it into your head what I'd actually do.

    No, I was merely clarifying the more accurate observation. :7)
     
    And you're doing it right now...I stated more than once that it's not just my life that would be lost, but those of the people I'd be protecting. You don't seem to want to catch that.


    And either you're lying again, or you're too dense to realize the meaning of the words at the end of what I said: "...certain death for you all". Let me explain. "you all" means the Jews you're hiding, your family, and finally yourself.

    By your logic, calling me dense is lying on your part but to me you are just mistaken.
     
    Wrong...I mentioned that you are either lying or dense in this instance, since I'm not sure which.

    Either way, your charge of cowardice is wrong.

    Fourth: You keep insisting that it's only my OWN LIFE that I'm concerned about, even though to anyone with a brain, it's obvious I'm thinking of everyone involved, not just myself.

    Yes, everyone involved including, or especially, yourself.
     
    And here you go again, Dan. "Especially"? WTF?

    Read what I said in my earlier post. I pretty much said that I'd fight the Nazis if they saw through my lie.

    You once again try to disregard the very point I'm trying to make in order to keep your own false assumptions about me.

    I don't know what to call that.


    Fifth: You attribute with no evidence whatsoever selfish motives to non-christians who are charitable.

    Correction, selfish motives to all who are charitable. You liar?
     
    Ah, ok. I thought you were just referring to non-xians. I should have known better when you were talking about "...kind of like preaching the good news"...at least I admit my mistake the first time it's pointed out.

    Mind you, that doesn't help your case. The bible does specify rewards for the works of believers. So a case can be made for selfish motives for believers.

    The real kicker is that everyone is supposed to obey the commandments, or do you think that xians like yourself don't have to follow them?

    Again, to me you are mistaken, according to your logic you're a liar. If you read the passages that I included then you would get as to what I said. Go reread Romans 7:7-8.
     
    No mistake or lie here. The first verse you listed implies exactly that.

    Remember, (1 Timothy 1:9-10)? Of course, it's not the one you list now!

    ReplyDelete
  41. Me:

    If you say that they came to tell the people how to "get saved" from your god's wrath, you still have to answer why:

    1) "god" waited so long to help them out, several centuries after the "way to salvation" (Jesus) was provided


    Dan:
    I don't understand. Who waited? The Apostles preached non stop until their deaths.
     
    God waited. No one went to the "new world" (I thought I had mentioned that, I guess not!) until centuries after Christ "died". Why didn't he send angels to let them know the "good news" right away?

    The apostles couldn't have known to go over there, and it'd be years before they could, even if they did know.

    2) Why did they "make up" so many false gods if your god is revealed in nature.

    Now you are speaking of "human nature" in a fallen creation.
     
    All the more reason for "God" to send angels to them the instant Christ was born to let them know WHICH "god" actually exists, and how to be saved by him, instead of waiting for centuries for the missionaries to come.


    Nature tells us nothing.

    Depends on what you are asking nature
     
    Read the post for the context. I thought it was obvious.

    and I am sure many scientists would disagree with you on that point.
     
    Sigh..I mean that nature tells us nothing about WHO (if anyone "created" it). I thought the context was obvious?


    There you go again, like a typical evangelical atheist.
     
    Actually, I'd be satisfied if theists like you didn't bs so much about science, history, and would stop lying about atheists.

    A more accurate saying would be, If you think that, then you must think that "bald" is a hair style. To which I do indeed.
     
    Care to explain how that's accurate? What about a person who's genetically bald, or had chemotherapy?

    I guess since you got spanked on your atheism is a religion thread, you have to resort to sources like the urban dictionary.

    What you don't realize is that by the definitions they provide, a person can be an "evangelical Tory", or an "evangelical Mets fan"! Neither are religions either.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Me:
    I have analyzed the evidence, as well as the actions of the so-called "Christians"...Your god does not exist. At least not if he cares about things like scientific accuracy in his book, and honesty in his servants...


    That is where you failed. You have even said yourself that "Remember, your holy book says that none is righteous." which is true. Then you seek truth by looking into what mankind is doing? Do you see where your mistake is? You look for God's evidence in the actions of men. Sad.
     
    You missed something: It's so-called "saved" people I look at. You know, the ones who are supposed to be "new creations" under God? Mind you, I don't look at their daily lives, I look at how they act when they preach the Word.

    If ever there's a time when they'd try to be careful and honest, it'd be then.


    Now, about biblical foreknowledge, some scholars point out the opposite.

    Some of the things from that site you linked to are weird: "Little Tyke" the "vegetarian lion" who ate cooked grains and eggs? Where in the "garden of eden" would he have been able to get cooked grains?

    Wouldn't the eating of eggs (the fetuses of birds) count as being part of a "fallen nature" anyway?

    Why aren't all cats like this, then? Why did the "curse of eden" (partially) not fall on this one?

    Maybe he was just an anomaly.

    For biblical archeology...You may want to read The View from Nebo: How Archeology Is Rewriting the Bible and Reshaping the Middle East, and also The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts

    ReplyDelete
  43. By the way, Dan...you never answered the question from my first comment on this post.

    ReplyDelete
  44. Reynold,

    I do understand your point of view and I was merely poking hard to invoke a more passionate answer from you. I know now that you are anything but cowardice and you would do anything to save the Jews. In fact, I was thinking that it was quite self sacrificial of you to knowing defy God to get the job done. Someone that sacrifices themselves by breaking God commandments, knowing they may end up in hell, to save someone is a selfless act that I could respect. I was wrong to call you cowardice. Also, sorry for bantering at your expense. In my armchair quarterbacking I am confident that I would stand up to the government as to their wrongness, and fight to the death. But putting my family in harms way by dying wouldn't be a good strategic move though. In reality I am sure I might point down the street and say "They went that way" to throw them off the trail. I just don't know how I would act in a real situation. I guess it depends how much ammo I would have at the time. Thanks for calling me an a$%hole, I deserved it.

    >>God waited. No one went to the "new world" (I thought I had mentioned that, I guess not!) until centuries after Christ "died". Why didn't he send angels to let them know the "good news" right away?

    I remember God meeting with Paul, then Saul, and blinding him with His presence. Plus I still don't understand what "new world" you are talking about. I was under the assumption that people preached the word unending after Christ raising from the grave. They have been doing it until this day. Am I wrong?

    Now you are speaking of "human nature" in a fallen creation.

    >>All the more reason for "God" to send angels to them the instant Christ was born to let them know WHICH "god" actually exists, and how to be saved by him, instead of waiting for centuries for the missionaries to come.

    Well Remember that Moses went up to the mountain to speak to God and the people immediately made that golden calf. It is a human nature thing. I don't question God's process, I trust Him in doing the right thing to save His creation.

    There are truly evil people in this world and even if Christ would stand in front of them, knowing He is God, they would not trust Him or worship Him. Those people will burn in hell forever. But I believe, once God reveals Himself as our Savior, that many atheists would understand clearly and follow Him. Hopefully you will be one of the latter so that we can have a good laugh about all of this in Heaven someday.

    There are many atheists here like you, that are not necessarily stubborn and proud that I see, but they seek the truth and I will trust God to reveal that truth to all of you, to save you, because of His love for you.

    Sorry cutting it short. I need to build a computer.

    >>By the way, Dan...you never answered the question from my first comment on this post.

    You're right I didn't. I don't believe that it is a fallacy at all. Like cold and heat, or light and darkness, evil is the absence of God (light) so by pushing God away makes you more evil (darkness). It is not an emotional plea, it's a scientific observation. The less God in your life the darker you are. Move towards the light. Discussing God on these blogs, to me, is moving towards the light so please don't stop. Seek and you will find. :7)

    ReplyDelete
  45. Thanks for the admission; you're a better man than Ray Comfort, Mariano, Tony Miano, Trish Ramos...

    Dan
    I remember God meeting with Paul, then Saul, and blinding him with His presence. Plus I still don't understand what "new world" you are talking about.
    North American, Australia, etc around the time of Christ.

    I was under the assumption that people preached the word unending after Christ raising from the grave. They have been doing it until this day. Am I wrong?
     
    No, I was wondering why God didn't reveal himself to those people around the time of Christ's birth like he did with the shepards and with Saul/Paul, later.

    This is brought home even more when you say:

    But I believe, once God reveals Himself as our Savior, that many atheists would understand clearly and follow Him. Hopefully you will be one of the latter so that we can have a good laugh about all of this in Heaven someday.


    It is not an emotional plea, it's a scientific observation. The less God in your life the darker you are.
     
    No, that's an unproven assertion. Look at people like Martin Luther, etc.

    ReplyDelete
  46. << But I believe, once God reveals Himself as our Savior, that many atheists would understand clearly and follow Him.>>

    I believe once we find extraterrestrial life many creationist will leave their faiths and live on well with morals and have an understanding they were evolved to have them.

    Many will feel ashamed of there past beliefs/gullability.

    Then hopefully all the religions will be made accountable for their crimes againt humanity.

    ReplyDelete
  47. >>I believe once we find extraterrestrial life many creationist will leave their faiths and live on well with morals and have an understanding they were evolved to have them.

    Well that may very well be true. I am not certain if that would make me lose faith in Christ though, intelligent life is another story though. After all that is sure one way to falsify the Bibles claims. We all know that is why the secular scientists are desperately searching for life. You know, to silence us Christians once and for all. Something tells me though that we will be waiting a long, long, time for that to occur.

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  48. I don't think we'll be waiting as long as your mob will waiting for your savour to return. Concidering it's a figure of your imagination. After the creationist are silenced maybe then we can start making them accountable for there crimes against humanity and planet earth. Remove all the hoared wealth from all the orgainised religions and use the trillions of dollars reasearching renewable energies and help restore the environment that humans have raped in the name of god.

    ReplyDelete

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