For all of you into Presuppositional Apologetics, just getting started or want to learn more about it, here’s my list of need to get books that is (key word that follows) *GIFT FRIENDLY*.
Some of them are linked with my review. I will be complete my review of each book sometime this week. So do come back to this post for the updates!
...(Read More)
Update: I will add more from a Pedagogical perspective, it is a well thought out article. Swimming presuppositionally. Wheee
Dan:
ReplyDeleteMost of your readers find Presuppositional Baloney to be inherently dishonest. Why do you continue to endorse it? Is it your belief that no honest means will lead people to christianity?
Why? 'Cos it's an easy way of avoiding questions from sceptics.
ReplyDeletePvb,
ReplyDelete>>Most of your readers find Presuppositional Baloney to be inherently dishonest.
Do opinions render something true or factual? If not you have no argument then. If so, how are you certain of that? :7)
Bird,
ReplyDeleteWhy? 'Cos it's an easy way of showing the absurd logic of skeptics.
Dan:
ReplyDeleteThe people find Presuppositional Baloney to be dishonest because it is so, not the other way around. I observe that PB (no offense to the blogger with the same initials) is dishonest. My beliefs do not alter the facts. But different facts would alter my beliefs.
This blog is little more than a presuppositional circle jerk. Dan's here getting his jollies; truth has nothing to do with it.
ReplyDeleteHe knows this, which is why he wont respond to it seriously.
@Pvblivs who said, "My beliefs do not alter the facts" Really? I would have thought on your own view of things, that facts become facts precisely because you, or somebody, believes them. Let me begin my challenge this way....can you give an example of even one single fact existing that nobody believes?
ReplyDeleteBarry:
ReplyDeleteYou missed the part where I said that different facts would change my beliefs. My beliefs don't affect truth; but truth affects my beliefs. So, again we have some dishonesty coming.
Pvblivs
ReplyDeleteI believe you when you say that truth can affect your beliefs, though I could throw some sticks in your path over how you think that happens (eg for an unbeliever, how does belief come from non-belief except by fideistic leap?). But what I don't believe is when you say your beliefs don't affect truth...I'm suspicious. I believe your epistemology, if you were consistent, would lead you to conclude that any truth, any fact, can only be such by virtue of you, or some other human being, thinking it as such. But since you've adjusted the terminology slightly, I don't mind rephrasing the question; can you imagine any truth existing that nobody believes is true? If yes, can you think of one right now?
"can you imagine any truth existing that nobody believes is true? If yes, can you think of one right now?"
ReplyDeleteyes.
I'm the single best love maker in the universe.
Nice one, Ant :)
ReplyDeleteBarry:
ReplyDeleteYour question is deceptive. There may or may not be truths that no one believes to be true. However, if I were to advance something as such a truth, I would be showing that it was something I believed to be true, invalidating your second condition. Furthermore, it is quite possible that every truth is believed by somebody as it is possible that every truth inspires someone to believe it. Previously, I thought that you were honestly mistaking cause and effect. I now see that I was mistaken and that you were attempting to lay a dishonest trap.
It is the practitioners of Presuppositional Baloney that think that beliefs effect truth. (No that is not a typo. PB'ers believe that their beliefs cause the relevant truths to exist.) I only believe that my observations are capable of seeing truth, which would exist even were I not here to observe them.
Pvblivs
ReplyDeleteThe question isn't deceptive, but for an unbeliever it is a trap, but only because atheistic presuppositions entrap you, not the question. As a Christian, I can answer the question and with a coherent worldview to support it. I can say that most definitely nothing exists that its not believed by everyone, because that would include God, and it is the objectivity granted by God and revealed to man that let's anything be what it is, including us as knowers or not knowers...but God knows it. This is valid and not arbitrary and not incoherent if based on the kind of God that Christians believe, Almighty, omnipotent, etc. The question is valid despite being impossible for you to answer properly...it helps the questioner determine your worldview, and you have all the inherent conflict, paranoia and struggle of unbelieving thought, which is never going to get you to the answer. Thanks for responding honestly...you have fibre. I'm gone, ciao.
Barry:
ReplyDeleteAwww, are you afraid that I will demonstrate how the question is entrapping rather than "atheistic presuppositions"? Well, you're right. That's exactly what I'm going to do. A simpler form of the question is "Can you give an example of a truth that you do not now believe?" Strictly speaking, of course, all I have to do is remove the use of your god as an escape hatch. But the point remains. If the new question is dishonest, the old one was as well for the same reason.
You say the question is valid. And then you run off so that you don't have to face a response. So we have to leave it to Dan to defend your claim. Dan, I would like you to answer the revised question or admit the original question was dishonest. (The easiest way would be to say Barry was a false christian. You've called people false christians before.)
I wonder how you'd know if everyone didn't believe it or not? What if you asked 5,535,354 people and the 5,535,354 person believed it?
ReplyDelete.... SO WHAT?
"I can say that most definitely nothing exists that its not believed by everyone, because that would include God,"
WTF...? Thanks for telling me what I believe. OOOOOHH you used the words most definitely you MUST (eyes roll) right.... please