I was not even going to comment on this subject because I believe the Atheists were burying themselves enough in this P.R. nightmare to not have to dignify any sort of a retort. Then last night I saw this:
Its extremely funny that even John Stewart, not the most conservative man, sides with Fox News, Huh!?, on a subject against the Atheists. That was the most hilarious part. You know you are doing the wrong thing when that is happening. Use it as a gauge even, you know, since yours is broken so often. Silly Atheists.
Also, speaking of "Just because there is a lawsuit, doesn't mean it will be successful." What appears to be a blog created for apparently this one subject. SecularSimi.blogspot.com by S. Bechman, received an answer for his numerous letters and complaints about this poster up in City hall. The answer, "It stays."
In an article it points out that,
Bechman, 51, of Simi Valley delivered a written complaint about the poster to the council at its June 25 meeting. He said he was frustrated that after sending six letters about the poster to council members over the past year, he had yet to receive a reply. Huber promised he would get back to him.
Huber, an attorney, cited legal precedent in his letter. He noted the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco, "often considered to be one of the most liberal" federal appeals courts, last year ruled against another atheist, Michael Newdow, who had sued to remove the phrase "In God We Trust" from U.S. coins and currency.
Huber said the appeals court found the national motto is ceremonial and patriotic, and "has nothing whatsoever to do with the establishment of religion."
While the phrase "separation of church and state" is not found in the U.S. Constitution, the First Amendment states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
Good question, good point, good day.
Then atheists wonder why most normal people don't like them, or trust them. LOL
ReplyDeleteThis, of course, should dispel any notion that the court in question is in any way "liberal." The fact is that it was placed there specificly to denounce atheism. Atheists don't trust in any god because they believe that. The decision may be popular, especially with the "we want to shove christianity down everybody's thorats" crowd. But it is not constitutional. The Constitution was intended to protect the citizenry from an overbearing government (for example, the "patriot" act.) Unfortunately, when everyone involved is in cahoots, there is no protection.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, Jon didn’t get the whole story from ABC or Fox.
ReplyDeleteAmerican Atheists’ legal complaint calls for “an injunction against continued display of the cross in the September 11 Memorial and Museum until such time as equal space is granted to non-Christian Americans for similar memorials”.
Though he should have known, since in that same press release he quotes, Dave Silverman sums up their position, “We will pay for our own memorial of equal size inside the museum, or the museum will not include the cross.”
That atom monument he mocked up as a joke? Almost what they were going for.
ReplyDeleteAll this is a useless battle for both sides - christians and atheists. No symbol of any non-religious ideology or religious beliefs should be put there.
ReplyDeleteThe ground zero should be about the victims of 9/11 and about those people who spent days looking for them in the middle of the debris, not a christians x atheists battle.
A monument with the names of everyone who died on 9/11 terrorist attacks and a monument with the names of the police, firefighters and volunteers who worked for long periods of time in the ground zero would be better and it would be the right thing to do. Then everyone - regardless their religious beliefs and non religious ideologies - could go there to pay homage to them. Period.
Oh, yes, I have posted on my own blog why I think you do this. You might find my perspective enlightening. Or, you might be upset because I "wasn't supposed to be able to figure it out."
ReplyDeleteMichelle,
ReplyDelete>>No symbol of any non-religious ideology or religious beliefs should be put there.
Funny that the Atheists are pushing for one though. Irony meter explodes with that one.
Dan isn't getting the point at all, is he? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If they want their symbols, then we should have ours too. Ignoring the fact that atheism is more a religious opinion than an actual religion but most people will get the point.
ReplyDeleteD.A.N,
ReplyDelete>> Funny that the Atheists are pushing for one though. Irony meter explodes with that one.
I'm not one of those atheists, D.A.N. I think no symbol of any religion or symbol of any non religious ideology should be put there. But that's my opinion and I'm sure I don't speak for all atheists in the world the same way all atheists don't speak for me in certain subjects. The only thing we have in common is the lack of belief in gods, but it doesn't mean we have to agree with each other on everything, right?
As I said before this is not supposed to be a battle between christianity x atheism; it's supposed to be about the victims of 9/11 and about those people who worked on the debris of the WTC, that's it.
If the Ground Zero was government/public building then I would agree with the lawsuit; but the Groud Zero is not a government/public building. So I really don't agree with the American Atheists' decision of filling a lawsuit over two pieces of metal that has no symbology or meaning behind it for them.
Putting two pieces of metal that resembles a cross in Groud Zero is not going to affect their lives (or even my life for that matter), so why do they give a damn? It's not like we're going to lose our sleep at night or stop living our lives over it, isn't?
Michelle,
ReplyDelete>>Putting two pieces of metal that resembles a cross in Groud Zero is not going to affect their lives (or even my life for that matter), so why do they give a damn? It's not like we're going to lose our sleep at night or stop living our lives over it, isn't?
Preaching to the choir now.
Actually, its causing Atheists mental pain and anguish. Including "dyspepsia, symptoms of depression, headaches, anxiety, and mental pain and anguish from the knowledge that they are made to feel officially excluded from the ranks of citizens who were directly injured by the 9/11 attack." *pshaw
D.A.N,
ReplyDelete>> Actually, its causing Atheists mental pain and anguish. Including "dyspepsia, symptoms of depression, headaches, anxiety, and mental pain and anguish from the knowledge that they are made to feel officially excluded from the ranks of citizens who were directly injured by the 9/11 attack."
How do you know atheists weren’t directly injured by 9/11 attacks? Were you in the WTC, in the Pentagon or even in the Flight 93? No, you weren’t. It gives me the impression that only christians were direct victims of 9/11 and only christians felt sad about this atrocity. 2977 innocent people died that day, all of them were christians? If so, how do you know? Your god told you? lol
In a way I understand the American Atheists; those two pieces of metal that resembles a cross don’t represent all americans because not all americans are christians; the same the symbol of the atom doesn’t represent all americans because not all americans are atheists; the same way the star of David/the crescent and the star/the image of Buddha/the pentagram/the image of hindu gods don’t represent all Americans because not all of them are jews, muslins, Buddhists, wiccans, hindus respectively.
I’m not an american citizen, I live about 4.800 miles away from USA, I’m an atheist and I felt shocked and sad about what happened on 9/11. I saw the airplanes hitting the WTC, I couldn’t believe my eyes because it was something I never expected to see it in my lifetime and it unfortunately I saw it happening. I was sad about those people who died on those terrorist attacks because they were innocent and they didn’t deserve to die that way. I felt sad about the families and friends of the victims because they didn’t deserve to lose their loved ones in terrorist attacks. In a way I felt injured about the 9/11 because those victims didn’t deserve to die the way they died and because they were my fellow human beings (even though I didn’t know them in person).
D.A.N, you like it or not atheists are american citizens just like you; they pay their taxes, they have the same duties and rights guaranteed by the US constitution just like you have and they felt as sad as you did about the innocent lives lost on those attacks.
Now, just two questions for you here:
1 - Would your life be affected or changed in anyway if they put the star of David, the images of all hindu gods, the crescent and the star, etc, in the Ground Zero? Would lose your sleep at night over it? Would you suffer from “dyspepsia, symptoms of depression, headaches, anxiety, and mental pain and anguish” because of it? That would keep you from living your life and do the things you’re usually do everyday?
2 - All of those symbols I mentioned in the first question have any religious meaning/symbology for you even though you are not a jew, a muslin or a hindu?
Michelle,
ReplyDelete>>Would your life be affected or changed in anyway if they put the star of David, the images of all hindu gods, the crescent and the star, etc, in the Ground Zero?
Funny you asked that because I addressed it already in a past post. To me, we're talking about two different things here, but I see your point. So who should get to claim victory there? Us or them? If that is the choice, I choose us. One side is claiming victory they destroyed, one side is claiming survival. I choose the survivors of course. One is boastful, one is grateful. I am sure Atheists would love to display their religious symbols but they celebrate humans, you know, the ones that did that damage to others.
The "A" certainly does not stand for ambiguity. The disambiguation of the Atheistic religious symbols are quite clear. Besides, if humans were so great, then why did that even happen? Its simply inappropriate. The cross is the best symbol here. It represents more of a positive, peace, and love message. It represents sin, Salvation, forgiveness, God's hatred of sin, the end of racial barriers, end of the Law, and ultimately the power of the Gospel. Jesus, and his followers, were the target here after all. If they attacked gay men I would expect a rainbow flag to fly. The cross is very appropriate here. It heals, not divides like the Atheists and Muslims religious symbols.
>>All of those symbols I mentioned in the first question have any religious meaning/symbology for you even though you are not a jew, a muslin or a hindu?
Yes, all symbols send a message. Like the post pointed out, the symbol, and the symbology they represent, is very important to portrey a message. I fight for sending a proper message. That is it. The Cross, in this case, is a proper message.
D.A.N,
ReplyDelete>> Funny you asked that because I addressed it already in a past post. To me, we're talking about two different things here, but I see your point. So who should get to claim victory there? Us or them? If that is the choice, I choose us. One side is claiming victory they destroyed, one side is claiming survival. I choose the survivors of course. One is boastful, one is grateful.
D.A.N, there things in this world there are way more important than christianity x atheism battles. This fight over christian symbols, atheist symbols, muslin symbols, etc, are pointless and a waste of time. The Ground Zero is not about religious beliefs and non religious ideologies. The Ground Zero is a monument, a reminder about the victims of 9/11; that’s all. It’s not about christians, atheists, jews, muslins, wiccans, hindus, buddhists, whatever. It’s about innocent people who were killed in a catastrophic event.; it’s about people who gave their time, health and lives working in the debris of WTC in order to rescue those victims in order give closure to the families and friends who lost their loved ones. In a way is about hope and the overcome of hardship. No ideological battles should take place in there.
>> I am sure Atheists would love to display their religious symbols but they celebrate humans, you know, the ones that did that damage to others.
How come we celebrate humans who did that damage to others? I don’t agree with what those terrorists did. They chose to die and take as many innocent people with them in the name of their religious fundamentalism. Those terrorists were responsible for the death of almost 3000 people. How can I celebrate such atrocity? I wasn’t in anyway happy with those murderers flying planes into WTC and into the Pentagon. Why? Because I’m against terrorism, I’m against murder, I’m against harming other people. I don’t need to be a christian and believing in some god to be against what those fundamentalist terrorists did; I don’t need to be a christian and a god believer to feel sad about the death of almost 3000 innocent people. I shouldn’t care about those 3000 innocent victims because they are people?
Just so you know I was relieved when they got Bin Laden and killed him. That man was responsible for a lot of terrorist attacks around the world and he had blood of innocent people in his hands; he had it coming.
>>Besides, if humans were so great, then why did that even happen?
Who knows? Life is not always fair, unfortunately. Some human beings are capable to do horrible things and the reasons why they do it are – sometimes - beyond our understanding. We will never know what was going through the mind of those terrorists that made them willing to kill themselves and innocent people in the name of Allah. We will never know for sure what was going on in the mind of Anders Breivik when he decided to blow up a bomb in a government building and go into a youth camp to shoot people. Who knows what really led those boys in to do a school shooting in Columbine and then commit suicide after? Those were tragedies and the only thing we can do is care about the victims and the family of the victims.
(continues)
(cont)
ReplyDelete>> The 9/11 wasn’t an attack against christians only; it was against the american people in general. All americans – regardless their ideologies and religious beliefs - were profoundly hit by this tragedy. All of them was shocked, sad, speechless, etc. I’m a brazilian citizen and I was profoundly hit by this tragedy too; I was sad, shocked and speechless. Back then I was corresponding with an american who lived in NY and I told him I was very sorry for what happened. I wish that never happens again with anyone in any country whatsoever.
>> Yes, all symbols send a message. Like the post pointed out, the symbol, and the symbology they represent, is very important to portray a message. I fight for sending a proper message. That is it. The Cross, in this case, is a proper message.
Yes, but they don’t have the same importance to you as they have for muslins, jews and hindus because you don’t follow those respective religions. You are a christian that’s why the cross has a special meaning for you.
But let’s face it; the cross doesn’t have the same importance for everyone like it has to you since not everyone is a christian. The same way is wrong to push the atom symbol, the jewish symbol, the muslin symbol, etc, down other people’s throats because not everyone is an atheist or jews or muslins/those symbols are not important/don’t represent everyone is also wrong to push a christian symbol on other people because not everyone is a christian and the cross doesn’t have much of a importance to those people just because you think is the proper message. For some people the cross is an instrument of torture and it means an extremely violent death.
Since I have no religion and I lack belief in gods no religious symbols have a special meaning and importance to me. The star of David is just a star; the image of Buddha is just a statue made of clay or ceramic or some other material, the cross is just two pieces of wood or metal or whatever material put together, the crescent and the star is just that: a crescent and a star; the pentagram is just a five point star. For me, there’s no meaning, symbology or importance behind them.
bellecherie writes:
ReplyDeleteIf the Ground Zero was government/public building then I would agree with the lawsuit; Groud Zero is not a government/public building.
This memorial and museum is over 50% government funded, with over $250 million of our tax dollars.
Robin Lionheart,
ReplyDeleteBut the Ground Zero is not a government building like a city hall or a court house, is it?
Michelle,
ReplyDelete>>This fight over christian symbols, atheist symbols, muslin symbols, etc, are pointless and a waste of time.
Dude!!! This ENTIRE 9/11 was an ATTACK on a symbol of the US. You do know what the WTC stands for right? They attacked our prosperity symbol. We erect our Eternal resolve symbol. End of discussion.
D.A.N,
ReplyDeletePeople died in the 9/11/ attacks. The WTC wasn't the only building hit by airplanes. The Pentagon was hit also and the only reason why the one of those airplanes didn't make it to Washington was because the passengers of Flight 93 decided to fight against the terrorists even if costed their lives.
9/11 was an attack against the whole US and its citizens. A lot of people lost their loved ones. The entire world was profoundly hit by 9/11 attacks. Thinking only christians were profoundly hit and were the only victims in this tragedy and excluding everyone else because they are not christians is pretty idiotic of you. End of discussion.
Michelle,
ReplyDelete>>The Pentagon was hit also
Yea, ANOTHER symbol of the US. You're arguing for me now.
>> and the only reason why the one of those airplanes didn't make it to Washington was because the passengers of Flight 93 decided to fight against the terrorists even if costed their lives.
Guess where they were headed to? That is right, ANOTHER symbol of the US.
The cross is a more accurate symbol for the US then the circle "A" of the Atheists BY FAR. Even Obama thanks God for the US. "God bless the USA" he often says. You CANNOT get around it. Its our ideology of freedoms for all, set by the BIBLE, that created the US. We honor God, they honor the moon god. They hate us, we love them. Its the ideology that was attacked, NOT the individuals that you are claiming. End
D.A.N,
ReplyDelete>> Its our ideology of freedoms for all, set by the BIBLE, that created the US.
Your religion is not any better than Islam when is about religious oppression. In case you don’t know in the comments in Facebook page of Fox News people were threatening atheists with death, torture in a cross and rape (so much for a loving and tolerant religion, isn’t?) .
Not too mention such historic facts as the Crusades, the Inquisition, St. Bartholomew's Day massacre, the persecution against jews by the catholic church, the religious wars which took place in Europe thanks the Protestant Reformation…do I need to go on? Those christians who took part in such atrocities were not exactly different from those fundamentalist muslin terrorists who hit the airplanes in the WTC and in the Pentagon.
>> We honor God, they honor the moon god. They hate us, we love them. Its the ideology that was attacked, NOT the individuals that you are claiming.
It wasn’t just the christian ideology. Bin Laden decided to attack America in general, he decided to create fear in all americans. Claiming only christians were the real victims in the 9/11 and that Al Qaeda intended to attack only christianity is baloney and an error. I’ve read the letters of Bin Laden and some transcriptions of his videos and in none of them he claimed “wanting to attack Christianity”. He claimed wanting cause a bad impact in America’s freedom; to destroy the american way of life; I bet this concerns every single american, not only christians.
The god you honor is not exactly loving and merciful. You know your god ordered a lot of innocent people to be killed just because they didn’t worship him. That’s religious oppression supported by your god/bible in case you don’t know.
>> Guess where they were headed to? That is right, ANOTHER symbol of the US.
But if those terrorists in Flight 93 were successful in flying the airplane into the White House or into the Capitol that would be a huge blow for all american citizens, not only christians.
>> They hate us, we love them.
Are you kidding me, right? After the attacks of 9/11 there was a huge wave of islamophobia around the world and some christians were part of it. Anders Breivik is a perfect example of that. He hates islam and muslins to his guts and he’s a christian.
>> Its the ideology that was attacked, NOT the individuals that you are claiming.
But innocent individuals died in those attacks. Your christian ideology is still alive; those 2977 innocent people are dead. Think about that.
The 9/11 terrorist attacks - and a more recent event – the terrorist attacks in Norway are examples of what happens when some extremist, fundamentalist people consider their religion/ideology to be more important than human lives. The 9/11 terrorists and Anders Breivik were willing to kill innocent people to make a point; how fucked up is that?
Michelle,
ReplyDelete>>(so much for a loving and tolerant religion, isn’t?) .
How are you CERTAIN those were not Atheists, or others, trying to portray Christians in a bad light, as they tend to do? Very flimsy evidence there. Should all flimsy evidence be allowed? Your hypocrisy is showing. Please try again.
>>Those christians who took part in such atrocities were not exactly different from those fundamentalist muslin terrorists who hit the airplanes in the WTC and in the Pentagon.
Correction, "Those PEOPLE who took part in such atrocities..." They were not Christians.
>>The god you honor is not exactly loving and merciful.
Before we address that you have made some assumptions of your point that you will have to defend before the claim is even valid. Like Razi Zacharias said that I highlight in one of my posts, you have just invoked a moral law, or standard, in raising that claim that your worldview cannot account for. That is your presupposition of the claim, is it not? Otherwise, the claim self destructs.
>>You know your god ordered a lot of innocent people to be killed just because they didn’t worship him.
I don't discuss Scripture with those that don't hold the Bible as authoritative...anymore.
>> Anders Breivik is a perfect example of that. He hates islam and muslins to his guts and he’s a christian.
NO HE IS NOT!!!
"Whoever says he is in the light and hates his brother is still in darkness." ~1 John 2:9
Also see 1 John 2:11, 1 John 3:15, 1 John 4:20...
"If anyone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." ~1 John 4:20
Claimed Christian does not equate to Christian. Again, your perceived, flimsy, evidence is overtaking your reasoning.
>>But innocent individuals died in those attacks...
Irrelevant thesis again?
"Its the ideology that was attacked, NOT the individuals that you are claiming."
ReplyDeleteI guess you're one of those people who believed Bush when he said, "They hate us because we're free." If so, my condolences. You will never win this war if you don't understand what they are fighting for.
Max,
ReplyDelete>>I guess you're one of those people who believed Bush when he said, "They hate us because we're free." If so, my condolences. You will never win this war if you don't understand what they are fighting for.
You're right, I might have maybe misconstrued something with my "ideology" claim. Yes, it was the ideology and policies, not necessarily Christan, that invoked the attacks.
I will let my man, Ron Paul school us like he schooled the Republicans on "blowback".
D.A.N,
ReplyDelete>> How are you CERTAIN those were not Atheists, or others, trying to portray Christians in a bad light, as they tend to do? Very flimsy evidence there. Should all flimsy evidence be allowed? Your hypocrisy is showing. Please try again.
You don’t need other people to portray some christians in a bad light. The Westboro Baptist Church family; Harold Camping, Ted Haggard; The Bachman couple, Rick Perry, Sarah Palin, Bill O’Reilly, Ray Comfort, etc, are doing a pretty good job on their own by showing the hypocrisy and stupidity of this so called “christian morality” and “christian reasoning”. But I’ll give you this: text
>> Correction, "Those PEOPLE who took part in such atrocities..." They were not Christians.
Appealing to the No True Scotsman Fallacy, D.A.N? Really?
Those people in the Crusades were christians working for the Catholic Church, the protestants in the Protestant Reformation who took part in the religious wars in Europe were christians, the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre was a violent attack against the huguenots (who were french calvinist protestants) orchestrated by the catholic church and instigated by Catherine de Medici; basically it was christians killing other christians. Jews were persecuted, converted by force, tortured, exiled and killed during the Middle Ages because the catholic church considered them responsible for Jesus’ death (this persecution reached its apex in the Crusades); jews served as scapegoats for the Black Plague (people thought they caused the disease by poisoned the wells), as a result 900 jews were burned alive. Again, do I need to go on?
>>The god you honor is not exactly loving and merciful.
The god you believe in is not merciful and is not loving because he ordered and he killed a lot of innocent just because they were worshipping other gods; he ordered the genocide of the canaanites for this same reason; he asked Abraham to kill his own son as offer; he destroyed two cities over nothing just sparing the “righteous” Lot who sent his own daughters to be raped and his daughters who committed incest with their own father…those are not the actions of a loving/merciful god.
As I said before many times, killing innocent people is wrong; it doesn’t matter who dif or commanded to be done. All you’re trying to do here by saying for the 100th time you just invoked a moral law that your worldview cannot account for is to divert us from the issue and to sugarcoat the atrocities mentioned in your bible committed in the name of your god.
From where I’m standing you are the one who can’t invoke any moral laws because the book you follow endorses mass killing, genocide, incest, rape, abortion, slavery, religious oppression, sexism, treating women like property, death by stoning, etc.
continues
(cont)
ReplyDelete>> I don't discuss Scripture with those that don't hold the Bible as authoritative...anymore.
You already doing just that here, D.A.N.
>> NO HE IS NOT!!!
Anders Breivik is a christian. I’ve seen his 1500 page manifesto. He is against islam, multiculturalism among other things and he mentions and worships the Knight Templars (in case you don’t know the Knight Templars were a christian military force endorsed by the catholic church who fought in the Crusades). There’s even a huge red cross (the symbol of the Knight Templars) in the cover of his manifesto.
Covering your ears and start preaching passages from the bible is not going to change this fact. Anders killed dozens of innocent people and hurt many others in the name of his ideology and for political/religious motives.
Besides, why are you quoting bible’s passages? I though you didn’t discuss the scripture with those that don't hold the bible as authoritative. If I don’t hold the bible as an authoritative (which is the honest truth) why are you showing me passages from it if you know is not going to work?
>> Me: But innocent individuals died in those attacks...
D.A.N: Irrelevant thesis again?
Really? So those 2977 people who were killed by extremist muslin terrorists weren’t innocent? Care to explain what they did exactly to deserve such a horrible death (let’s not forget that probably some of them were christians just like you)? Tell me if I’m wrong here, but does it mean those terrorist attacks were just a mean to an end which main goal was to kill innocent people – that according to your professed worldview - were not that innocent? By not being innocent they somehow deserved it that horrible fate?
Michelle,
ReplyDelete>>But I’ll give you this: text
BECAUSE that is ALL you can give. Where is the Link? Show me the link that Sindy Clock actually said " I love Jesus, and the cross and if you don't, I hope someone rapes you!"
Its a LIE!!!! Just because someone on the internet says something does NOT make it true. If those were actually said, they would of happily provided the link to it, THE SOURCE. Its a lie otherwise. All everyone on the internet has done is link to THAT link that you did. It CANNOT be verified otherwise. You place a great deal of FAITH in some dude you don't even know. Hypocrite!
Michelle,
ReplyDelete>>Appealing to the No True Scotsman Fallacy, D.A.N? Really?
Listen, Its like calling myself a doctor without meeting the criteria to become a doctor (Scholastics, board approval, etc.) I gave you VERSES that reveal the truth of claims to Christianity.
Plus, to determine what is or is not a Christian you have to reference the authority that says what is a Christian or not, namely Christ Himself. The ONLY one that can determine who is, or who is not, a Christian is Christ!!!!
Even a cat can call themselves a Therapist but that does not make it so.
So, please spare us the tired atheistic rant of "no true Scotsman" garbage, that an atheist made up long ago, that has been refuted long ago.
Michelle,
ReplyDelete>>So those 2977 people who were killed by extremist muslin terrorists weren’t innocent?
No dummy. The injection of the point "But innocent individuals died in those attacks" in this discussion of 'attacking symbols' is irrelevant, not the fact people were killed. Dork.
D.A.N,
ReplyDelete>> BECAUSE that is ALL you can give. Where is the Link? Show me the link that Sindy Clock actually said " I love Jesus, and the cross and if you don't, I hope someone rapes you!"
I can’t provide you the link because Fox News had the good sense of deleting the page once when they realized what was being posted there. But feel free – if you have a facebook account – to login and look for every single name mentioned in the link I gave you. I found some names and some of those Facebook users subscribe to Fox News.
>> Listen, Its like calling myself a doctor without meeting the criteria to become a doctor (Scholastics, board approval, etc.) I gave you VERSES that reveal the truth of claims to Christianity.
You are appealing to No True Scotsman Fallacy D.A.N, like it or not. For you no true christian is capable to make atrocities; well…historical facts show otherwise and no matter if you chose to live in the delusional Lala Land, those facts are not going to change to better suit yourself and your christian worldview. Period.
There are a lot of things in this world that some people use as justification for the atrocities they do or did; it happens that religious dogmas and the belief in some divine entity(ies) are one of those justifications including the religion/god you follow, you like it or not.
The verses of your bible means nothing to me because the bible is just a book of mythological baloney and I don’t hold it as an authoritative (which I’m glad considering the atrocities mentioned in your bible endorsed by god and the prophets). You said yourself you don’t waste your time discussing the scriptures with people who don’t hold the bible as an authoritative. I’m one of those people, so stop wasting your time quoting bible verses. You can type them until your fingers bleed or shout them until you get blue in the face…I’m not going to suddenly accept christianity and begin to hold the bible as an authoritative just because you quote this book over and over again. Give it up.
>> Plus, to determine what is or is not a Christian you have to reference the authority that says what is a Christian or not, namely Christ Himself. The ONLY one that can determine who is, or who is not, a Christian is Christ!!!!
But JC doesn’t come down on earth to name every single person a christian himself, did he? What makes someone a christian – besides the baptism in whatever christian church – is when this person believes in Jesus and follows his teachings. You were baptized in a christian church – whatever that church might be – and you believe in Jesus and follow his teachings which makes you automatically a christian.
>> The injection of the point "But innocent individuals died in those attacks" in this discussion of 'attacking symbols' is irrelevant, not the fact people were killed.
For me the symbols – whatever they might represent - are irrelevant considering what happened in the Ground Zero.What matters is people and their right to live. Those 2977 people in the 9/11 had their right to live taken away from them and that’s despicable.
The danger lies when people like you or those people who threatened atheists with death, torture and rape gives more importance to religious symbologies and dogmas than anything else.
I’m an atheist, yes but I’m not willing to kill people or hurt them in the name of atheism. Atheism is my ideology, but the lives of human beings are way more important than my ideology and its symbols.
Dan:
ReplyDelete"Listen, Its like calling myself a doctor without meeting the criteria to become a doctor (Scholastics, board approval, etc.) I gave you VERSES that reveal the truth of claims to Christianity."
Strange, they seem to be missing here. However, you have verses (presumably, maybe they're not there at all) that you merely interpret as indicating those that you do not wish to acknowledge as christian. It very much looks like you are applying "no true Scotsman." Now, I believe that the bible is false. But anyone who believes the bible to be true (at least as he interprets it) and uses it as an authority is a christian. It's a fairly simple criterion. And Breivik meets it. Your christus has not come down and explicitly identified anyone as not a true christian. Therefore, your "authority" has nothing to say on the matter (to date.)
Here's your link, Dan;
ReplyDeletehttp://www.allfacebook.com/fox-news-facebook-page-gets-8000-death-threats-2011-08
And Dan, I no longer discuss science with those who don't hold facts and evidence as authoritative.
ReplyDeleteMichelle,
ReplyDelete>>You were baptized in a christian church – whatever that church might be – and you believe in Jesus and follow his teachings which makes you automatically a christian.
Wrong! Otherwise there would be no need for verses Matthew 7:15-23. Again your reasoning is flawed.
>>Those 2977 people in the 9/11 had their right to live taken away from them and that’s despicable.
Irrelevant thesis again. While very true, it adds NOTHING to the discussion. It does not change the fact that symbols matter, and symbols were attacked, not people. People were the collateral damage to those Islamists ideology. Even though the most "collateral damage" is also the goal in many of the cases.
>>The danger lies when people like you or those people who threatened atheists with death, torture and rape gives more importance to religious symbologies and dogmas than anything else.
People like you!? Wow you just leaped off that deep end.
>> Atheism is my ideology, but the lives of human beings are way more important than my ideology and its symbols.
That may be true but the atheistic ideology certainly differs from you. Like Stalin, Mao, Pot, Ill, Castro, and other atheistic regimes.
Rufus,
ReplyDeleteYou did NOT provide the link to the actual posts. I could Photoshop a list that says Rufus and Michelle wants to eat babies and, when full, convert to Christianity. Will that be true too?
Its also amazing me that you are WILLING to believe something like that, but NOT Scripture.
>>And Dan, I no longer discuss science with those who don't hold facts and evidence as authoritative.
Oops
ReplyDelete>>And Dan, I no longer discuss science with those who don't hold facts and evidence as authoritative.
Touché, that is perplexing that you hold evidence as authoritative. If I were able to provide evidence that, as an example, we are more beneficial if we started to murder the handicapped, because of their drain on society, that you would take up arms and go cripple hunting. Scary
No, Dan, what's scary is that if "god" told you to murder the handicapped you'd do it gleefully.
ReplyDeleteAnd the link?
D.A.N,
ReplyDelete>> Answer me this:
1 – Were you baptized in a christian church?
2 – Do you believe in Jesus?
3 – Do you believe Jesus is the messiah?
4 – Do you follow his teachings?
If you answer yes for all the questions above – or at least for the last 3 ones - guess what genius? You are a christian.
Again and for the last time D.A.N and this time care to answer it? Why are you quoting passages from the bible to someone who doesn’t hold that book as an authoritative? You said yourself you don’t waste your time discussing the scriptures with someone who doesn’t follow it. Or you quote your holy bible when you decide to preach in hope someone here might be converted? If that is your goal, you’re failed…at least with me.
>> People like you!? Wow you just leaped off that deep end.
Did you forgot the part I said in my previous comment “Atheism is my ideology, but the lives of human beings are way more important than my ideology and its symbols. ?
>> That may be true but the atheistic ideology certainly differs from you. Like Stalin, Mao, Pot, Ill, Castro, and other atheistic regimes.
So – considering your reasoning – I can say nazism was a christian regime since Hitler was a christian, right?
>> You did NOT provide the link to the actual posts. I could Photoshop a list that says Rufus and Michelle wants to eat babies and, when full, convert to Christianity. Will that be true too?
We didn’t link the actual post because Fox News deleted it. In case you didn’t read it the link Rufus provided you, I’ll quote: “The admins of Fox’s Facebook page worked furiously to delete the hateful posts, but not before the atheist blogger behind One Man’s Blog managed to capture screenshots, some of which we’ve reproduced below.”
Here’s the link about the death threats posted on Fox News Facebook page:
Atheists face death threats on Fox Facebook page; re: 9/11 cross: text
Here’s the proof Fox News deleted the posts (therefore being impossible to provide you the original link):
Fox News pulls Facebook post after death threats against atheists:
text
Fox News pulls Facebook post after death threats against atheists: text
Yeah, Dan the cowards at Fox deleted all the original posts, so all that's left is the screen shot. I guess if they had thrown in a talking snake you'd believe it. You've proven how your mind works.
ReplyDeleteRufus,
ReplyDeleteIt just struck me funny that you're so selective about what you're willing to believe, with this added and very flimsy evidence. It may have happened. If it did happen, it sure was horrible. It goes to show the plight of the professing Christians out there, if that was actually professed. Was there evidence that professing Christians said those horrible things? Sure we have some messed up red necks out there that hate the world. But Christians? doubtful. I am with the Atheists on that one if Christians said they should be raped etc. Disturbing and sad if that was the case.
D.A.N,
ReplyDeleteIn the link Rufus gave you there was a link to the original post in One Man’s Blog (text). In his post, John P. provided – along with the screenshots – the link to the profile page of some of those Facebook users. It doesn’t take much time to look it up.
I did my research also and I found some of those users:
1 – Paul Altum and Casey M. Jones (he is a christian, so it shows on his profile since follows a FB page about the bible) subscribers of Fox News Facebook Page; I found the Sindy Clock (her profile picture shows her in which is probably of a gospel choir which means she attends church); I found the Eileen Rourke and the Hans Anderson; I found the Mike Holeschek who also subscribes to Fox news FB page; if he’s a christian I can’t be sure, but he believes in god(since he follows a page called “Let's see if there are 5 million people on FB who believe in God! Press Like if you do!”).
Feel free to look them up if you have a Facebook account.
Michelle,
ReplyDelete>>Feel free to look them up if you have a Facebook account.
AGAIN, you're cracking me up. NONE of that shows evidence they ACTUALLY said that. That is what is so funny here. Some guy can Photoshop Pics and words and CLAIM someone said it. Then when you go to check it you see a picture of her in a Choir and proclaim "YUP, She is evil! Look at her picture in church."
Bwahahahahaha, that is the best.
So you DON'T see the inconsistency here in your beliefs? You want extra ordinary and extra Biblical evidence that a person exists and that a Person said extraordinary things. YET, you are willing to accept "some dude's" claim that someone said something with the flimsiest of, or ZERO, evidence.
I can take your Avatar and post it to the left of the comment "I love Jesus, but I act as an misinformed Atheist" Will that make it true that you said it?
This is so funny, read sad. WAKE UP!!!!!
How do you know that your reasoning about this or ANYTHING is valid?
Silly Atheist.
This is funny and sad. And pathetic. Just like Christianity. Along with being a death cult built on fear.
ReplyDeleteD.A.N,
ReplyDelete>> Then when you go to check it you see a picture of her in a Choir and proclaim "YUP, She is evil! Look at her picture in church."
All I said about her is that her avatar probably is from gospel choir, so it means she attends church. I didn’t mean to say she’s evil because she attends church! Here you are lying to your fucking teeth again and showing your usual dishonesty again by putting in my mouth words I never said!
I put the names of those users for you to see for yourself they are real people with real FB profile pages, to see some of them are indeed christians and some of them subscribe to Fox News FB page. If you doubt me, login on FB and see for yourself!
>> So you DON'T see the inconsistency here in your beliefs? You want extra ordinary and extra Biblical evidence that a person exists and that a Person said extraordinary things. YET, you are willing to accept "some dude's" claim that someone said something with the flimsiest of, or ZERO, evidence.
D.A.N, here you are trying to divert the real issue again! This particular discussion has nothing to do with biblical evidences about your god’s existence! It has to do with evidence me and Rufus showed you those comments were posted in Fox News FB page and in my last comment I showed you evidence this really happened and the reason why it wasn’t possible to give you the original link! And yet you chose to ignore it! What lame excuse are you going to come up with now?
You know what? Fuck it! If you want to believe it or not, it’s your problem…not ours. But – again – is not going to change the fact christians threatened to kill, rape and torture atheists on Fox News FB page (it doesn’t matter how many times you scream there’s zero evidence or appeals to the No True Scotsman fallacy...again)
>> I can take your Avatar and post it to the left of the comment "I love Jesus, but I act as an misinformed Atheist" Will that make it true that you said it?
Well, I have good skills on the internet but hacking into a user’s Facebook account or working on Photoshop is not among them. Besides, why would I do that? I have nothing to gain by doing that (not too mention is fucking dishonest).
And - as I said before - people don’t need to do anything to portray some christians – no, I’ll change it - christianity in a bad light. Christian fundies like The Westboro Baptist Church family; Harold Camping, Ted Haggard; The Bachman couple, Rick Perry, Sarah Palin, Bill O’Reilly, Ray Comfort, those evangelical pastors/deceivers in Brazil, the pedophile priests and pastors, the christian missionaries in African countries such as Nigeria and Uganda being connivent to the torture and killing of children being accused of witchcraft and now those Facebook users, etc, are doing a pretty good job on that department already. From where I’m standing christianity is digging its own grave thanks to the actions of some of its followers.
Well, I have good skills on the internet but hacking into a user’s Facebook account or working on Photoshop is not among them. Besides, why would I do that? I have nothing to gain by doing that (not too mention is fucking dishonest).
ReplyDeleteThat, Rufus, and there'd have to be a hell of a lot of people or at least a lot of hacking going on to make xians look bad there!
Michelle,
ReplyDelete>>I put the names of those users for you to see for yourself they are real people with real FB profile pages, to see some of them are indeed christians and some of them subscribe to Fox News FB page. If you doubt me, login on FB and see for yourself!
The Bible was put in front of you, as a Historical Narrative, for you to see for yourself they are real people with real HISTORY, to see some of them are indeed Christians (body of Christ). If you doubt me, READ and see for yourself!
How about now? Get my point yet?
>>But – again – is not going to change the fact christians threatened to kill, rape and torture atheists on Fox News FB page
Verse that I provided CERTAINLY did. You can DENY it all you wish.
>>Well, I have good skills on the internet but hacking into a user’s Facebook account or working on Photoshop is not among them.
Are you CLAIMING that people ACTUALLY said those things without seeing it YOURSELF? You do not NEED to hack into anyone's account for verification if they said that or not. You do not NEED to hack into anyone's account to Photoshop Pics to make it LOOK LIKE a Facebook post. You are CLAIMING they ACTUALLY SAID these things WITHOUT one shred of EVIDENCE. You're a hypocrite and way, way, too proud to admit that I am right.
>>From where I’m standing christianity is digging its own grave thanks to the actions of some of its followers.
And THAT is called "poisoning the well", its a fallacy! Good day...ya student
D.A.N,
ReplyDelete>> The Bible was put in front of you, as a Historical Narrative, for you to see for yourself they are real people with real HISTORY, to see some of them are indeed Christians (body of Christ). If you doubt me, READ and see for yourself! How about now? Get my point yet?
Dan, do you make yourself stupid for a living? You are ignoring the actual discussion, you are changing the focus on the real issue here. The present discussion has nothing to do with your bible, your god or Jesus! It has to do with the evidence me and Rufus provided you about the death threats made by christians against atheists! My goodness!! Stop diverting the issue, for fuck’s sake!!!
>> Verse that I provided CERTAINLY did. You can DENY it all you wish.
You provided nothing but passages from your bible. That’s not presenting an argument; that’s religious preaching.
>> You are CLAIMING they ACTUALLY SAID these things WITHOUT one shred of EVIDENCE.
I gave you the evidence; I showed not only the screen shot of those posts but also three links where shows those threats really happened! I would gladly provide you the original link of those posts Dan; but I can’t since Fox News deleted the posts as proved to be true in the links I sent you, you blind fool!!!
Now, what evidence do you have that proves with 100% those screen shots were photoshoped? Unless you’re omniscient yourself you can’t know for sure those posts were photoshoped. If you do, provide the evidence. If you can’t prove it, shut up!!!
I think Dan'd evidence is that he doesn't like the idea of Christians making Christians look bad.
ReplyDeleteDan does it again:
ReplyDeleteFrom where I’m standing christianity is digging its own grave thanks to the actions of some of its followers.
And THAT is called "poisoning the well", its a fallacy! Good day...ya student
She's just pointing out the consequences of how xians are acting which will piss people off and make the less susceptible to "the word" than they otherwise would be.
Those people may be committing the fallacy, but bellecherie is herself not.
Reynold,
ReplyDeleteAnd that is an appeal to your own authority. You're wrong though. IF she says "From where I'm Standing" meaning "her opinion" then SHE is who is pointing that well with HER claim.
D.A.N,
ReplyDeleteMy opinion is based on I what see it happening in my country and it’s also based on the statistics.
One example is the Universal Church of God’s Kingdom which lost 24% of his followers from 2003 to 2009. One of those reasons this is happening because some of those evangelicals are disagreeing with the attitude of the pastors; such as demanding money in the name of Jesus, taking advantage of gullible people in the name of greedy (such as accepting – in the name of jesus - the offer of a poor child who decided to give his only pair of shoes…you know...the ones he was using it in that moment), pastors being accused of fraud and embezzlement, etc, (a couple weeks ago an evangelical pastor was arrested accused of fraud and embezzlement of public money using the name of a company that doesn’t exist; he paid bail with a bouncing check and he went on TV and on the radio asking his followers and friends to donate money to the account of his wife in order to compensate the check); spewing discriminatory/hateful messages against people who don’t follow their religion/don’t attend their church (such as an evangelical pastor keeping a girl from participating in the cults because her evangelical boyfriend was from another church and telling her she will be accepted back only if her boyfriend becomes the follower of her church) or have a life or ideology which those pastors strongly disagree.
More and more evangelical people are abandoning churches and going to less conservative ones or deciding to attend different churches, including the catholic one or not going to church at all.
My evangelical aunt left her church because she was fed up of the pastor asking constantly for money and my mother is also getting fed up of her church and the hypocrisy of some of its followers (not to mention the pressure they put on her to give 10% of her salary every month to the church).
Michelle,
ReplyDeleteSo what you are basically saying is that we should throw the baby out with the bathwater. Got it.
D.A.N,
ReplyDeleteNo, I didn't say that.
All I did here was to prove my claim that your religion is digging its own grave - at least in my country - thanks to the actions of some of his followers showing statistics of the decrease of people attending churches – both catholics and evangelical ones. And I didn’t even mention the increase of non religious people’s percentage (including people who believes in god but chose not to follow any religion; agnostics and atheists) from 5,1% to 6,7% of brazilian’s population.
But – again, as being dishonest as you are – you understand the things the way you want to.