"Remember the Golden Rule: He who has the gold makes the rules!"
Apparently, whoever owns the most gold, rules.
Well, that is the sentiment, and mentality, of these governments who are positioning themselves in this current financial war, the real World War III.
Just recently, Germany fired across the bow by proclaiming they will be repatriating their gold, literally tons of it, from the United States and other governments.
Max Keiser reported about it, and as I was watching the program I had a moment of pause as to what was actually happening here. The conversation about gold is everywhere now; we see many shows about mining for gold for our entertainment; many commercials and ads about taking gold off our hands, are all increasing dramatically.
Why all this gold talk?
The term ".999 pure gold" came to mind and an epiphany came quickly, "pure 666." What if this is the actual number of the beast? You certainly will not be able to buy or sell if the "mark of the beast" becomes once again the gold standard globally, and also satisfies the "global currency" criteria.
So, allow me to state the case.
"Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold" ~1 Kings 10:14(KJV)
This powerful verse is what hinted to me as this possibly being a valid point. Didn't they even make a golden calf to worship when Moses left? They worshiped a beast of gold, literally. Is that possibly a shadowy prophecy of these times?
 |
| Proverbs 23:4 |
Now, gold is the standard for money for the past 6000 years worldwide. Literally, the "gold standard". We tried to bail away from it in 1971, but now look where we are.
Countries are debasing their currency, literally an act of war, against our dollar. We are debasing our dollar too! Other countries are loosing faith in our dollar because of the deficits we are accumulating, in the tens of trillions. Bernanke all but destroyed the dollar by feverishly printing money. I digress.
Now, since we are no longer on the gold standard, what happens? Well, HSBC's fraud, and Libor scandal, and derivative crises surfaces.
"When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, 'Who is destroying the world?' You are." - Atlas Shrugged
Now, since someone determined that these banks are "too big to fail" and the bankers are "too big to prosecute", what happens instead? They get fined a set amount. Guess what happens after that? These central banks turn on the printers, and "PRINT" money, to pay off the fines and continue their corrupt ways. That is it! They are BEYOND the law. THAT is why, I believe, they are going to use this as an excuse to go back to the Gold standard, to save the world (false savior) from corruption. Because, you can't print gold!
The Bible states the love of money is the root of all evil, as we all know. So where does that leave us? Well, governments are scrambling, hoarding, gold to position themselves when the dollar crashes soon.
Will it work? Well...
"Your silver and gold are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You stored up treasure in the last days!" ~James 5:3
Chapter 7 of Ezekiel is appropriately titled "Announcement of the End", look what it says about gold:
"They will throw their silver into the streets, and their gold will seem like something filthy. Their silver and gold will be unable to save them in the day of the Lord’s wrath. They will not satisfy their appetites or fill their stomachs, for these were the stumbling blocks that brought about their iniquity." ~Ezekiel 7:19
What will I do? Honor God by following His instructions, of course.
"Your life should be free from the love of money. Be satisfied with what you have, for He Himself has said, I will never leave you or forsake you." ~Hebrews 13:5
Amen.
bit.ly/Goldrule
Are you hoping that posting a new article, pretending that nothing happened, is going to remove your need to apologise to me, Dan?
ReplyDeleteOr do you think it'll divert attention away from the fact that you didn't answer the questions asked of you?
Wrong on both counts.
Your creepy possessive entitled demands are too disturbing for me. You are welcome to threaten someone else's family, but I would rather you repent of such behavior.
DeleteAnd you are welcome to accuse someone else of threatening your family, but given that I DIDN'T you need to fucking apologise.
DeleteWhy do I need to apologize if you JUST SAID I am welcome to accuse someone?
DeleteWhen you said,
>>"And you make me desire social services coming to your house to rescue your kids, but what are ya gonna do?"
It angered me. Why, because we have social services coming and taking children from their homes for baseless claims, especially for home schooling their own kids. There is literally a war going on, after all. A war for our kids. The list is quite extensive.
An American Humanist named John Dunphy said in 1983: "I am convinced that the battle for humankind's future must be waged and won in the public school classroom by teachers who correctly perceive their role as the proselytizers of a new faith: a religion of humanity that recognizes and respects the spark of what theologians call divinity in every human being. These teachers must embody the same selfless dedication as the most rabid fundamentalist preachers, for they will be ministers of another sort, utilizing a classroom instead of a pulpit to convey humanist values in whatever subject they teach, regardless of the educational level--preschool day care or large state university. The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and the new--the rotting corpse of Christianity, together with all its adjacent evils and misery, and the new faith of humanism."
We parents are battling in courts, daily, for our kids. A threat of ripping kids from their home and their families, even in jest, may be a perfectly normal flip comment for you, someone that does not have any kids. But for me, as a parent, I was offended and you made it personal bring my children into the conversation, as you have done before. I have every right to treat you as I see fit.
It would be different if that was the ONLY thing you have said, but you're a vial vindictive "man" who threatens to have my blog taken down, for silly reasons, and are so vial in conversations. Your heightened anger is apparent. I would not put it past you that you actually would call authorities on me for a silly, or vindictive, reason. You have made a pattern with your comments, and threats, and they can be listed quite easily as how foul of a person you are towards Christians, me personally. I am accepting of that as par for the course for the subject we are dealing with. But my kids have nothing to do with me and you. I hold their livelihood, and safety, as sacred. I know you would not understand that, as you have no children, but that is how us parents react sometimes. My reaction to what you said, is valid. We can agree to disagree.
If you continue to insist on harassing me to apologize, for your harassing behavior, I will be forced to mark everything from you as spam, and deal with you as a hostile, disgruntled, and unstable person. I am now moving on from the conversation. You have had three separate posts to say what you wanted to say on this one point, and hundreds other postings, without censorship. I feel I have been more then accommodating for your manic style rantings. Again, we can agree to disagree.
Now, do you own a lot of gold, and if so, what is your address? :7p
I don't own any gold, Dan, but YOUR BIBLE in Matthew 5.42 COMMANDS you to give to 'those who ask'.
DeleteSo, are you a true Christian, Dan? Do you want to prove it? I fancy a new 11" MacBook Air, it costs around £1000. I am asking you to paypal me £1000 and prove that you are a TRUE Christian.
As for the rest, I made a flippant remark, which was clear by the 'but what are ya gonna do?' at the end. You then, in typical fucked up Dan Marvin style, twisted this in your broken brain into being a threat against your children. You still owe me an apology.
I'll accept the £1000 I have asked you for as such.
UPDATE: I have not yet received £1000 from Dan. I guess he isn't a true Christian after all.
DeletePvbs, looks like you were right, he's not a believer.
UPDATE: Still no payment from Dan. I am now entirely convinced that he is not really a Christian at all.
DeleteStill no payment from Dan. But that's ok, cos he's not a Christian, so he doesn't have to pay.
DeleteSo your lack of understanding scripture is my problem? Hardly.
DeleteHush down, fake Christian.
DeleteDan:
ReplyDeleteWishing something to happen is not the same thing as threatening to make it happen. While it is quite clear that Alex would like the proper authorities to take your children away -- as he thinks you put them in danger -- he has no power over such an event and acknowledges that lack of power. As such, he cannot make a threat in such a regard.
As for gold being "the beast": That is against your own "holy book." After all, it reads "for it is the number of a man...."
OK, I considered your point and do not see anything wrong yet. The number six represents man, created on the sixth day. Literally the number of humanity.
DeleteI don't think I am able to avoid numerology in this discussion, when trying to decipher what that part meant. I saw this breakdownof the numbers, but I am not certain what validity it holds. I think if six represents man, and the love of money (.999) is the root of evil then I believe it is still consistent with my position. It fits nicely.
I love this! I read this site often for amusement. I've always had a slight suspicion that this was similar to christwire.org; satire, but only slightly. Dan, you play the caricature of a fundie brilliantly!
ReplyDeleteHonestly, gold is the beast? .999 is 666? Love it!
Seriously folks. If you listen to the Atheist Experience podcast, you'll notice that callers often pretend to be theists for the purpose of entertainment. I think we have essentially the same thing happening here. Dan is a masterful troll.
Bravo Dan! Now where's my prize?
Appeal to ridicule - FTW?
DeleteExpecting a prize to boot?
Appeal to ridicule - FTW?
DeleteIn your case, it's justified.
Not ridicule.
DeleteI want to be on record as the first to out you. It's simply too hard for me to accept that anybody actually caries the opinions and beliefs expounded on this site.
Dan is kinda like the Westboro Baptist Church. They don't actually believe what they're saying, they're simply trying to get a reaction. In the case WBC they're trying to incite people because they're litigious. In the case of Dan... well... why does any internet troll do what they do?
Most of the commentary on this site is insulting and inflammatory; not in an intellectual sense, more like a nani-nani-boo-boo sense. These aren't means of persuasion, they're means of provocation. AND YOU'RE ALL FALLING FOR IT!
Coming on a troll's site and telling them how stupid they are feeds them. Starve them and they go away.
So which is it, a troll or a Poe? Anyway, at least here we are kind enough to allow you to "go on the record". AE has moderated ALL my comments off their site for some 5 years straight now. Who is afraid of the truth? Never mind, that was rhetorical.
DeleteDan:
ReplyDeleteSix is not the same as six hundred sixty-six. It is your "holy book" that says the number represents some man. Presumably, that would be the man who "required all to take the mark." Some had speculated that it was supposed to be Emperor Nero. But to suggest that it is gold or money itself is to denounce your own bible. Now, I'm okay with denouncing your bible as I do it all the time. But you shouldn't pretend to be a believer.
>> But to suggest that it is gold or money itself is to denounce your own bible
DeleteCan you flesh this out further, you know, instead of barely asserting it?
Kind of like you barely asserting that biblegod has revealed himself to everyone??
DeleteDan:
ReplyDeletePerhaps you should read your own holy book. It's in Revelation. Remember, I am only stating that you are going against your own "holy book."
But I'm curious about why you object to what you falsely identify as a bare assertion. After all, you keep making the bare assertion that your god has revealed himself to me. And I know for a fact that he hasn't. (Here I am acting as witness. If I were given any such revelation, I would know about it.)
You do know about His revelation. Are you here now to tell everyone publicly you never heard of a Bible. Or admit you never have read the Bible? Please, make my night and claim you have no knowledge of God or Scripture.
DeleteChapter 7 of Ezekiel is appropriately titled "Announcement of the End", look what it says about gold:
ReplyDelete"They will throw their silver into the streets, and their gold will seem like something filthy. Their silver and gold will be unable to save them in the day of the Lord’s wrath. They will not satisfy their appetites or fill their stomachs, for these were the stumbling blocks that brought about their iniquity." ~Ezekiel 7:19
I'd love to find where people are throwing their silver into the streets - I wouldn't mind helping them dispose of it ... even if I do only have a bit of time left to try and enjoy it.
DeleteOf course by "a bit of time" I mean plenty of time given that it's 2000 years and counting for this end times prophecy rubbish.
ReplyDeleteYou have 9 months in the womb to grow enough to survive in this world. You have 90 years to figure things out, and grow, to survive the next world. Time is ticking.
DeleteD.A.N. said...
DeleteYou have 9 months in the womb to grow enough to survive in this world.
You do realise that babies aren't eqipped to survive in this world from birth? It takes a few more years of learning in order to survive without aid.
You have 90 years to figure things out, and grow, to survive the next world.
Well I've already figured out that your deity is fictional so i'll have a few extra of those 90 years to spend doing things that are far more worthwhile - like sleeping or watching football or listening to music or going for walks etc...
Oh, and just out of curiosity why would I need to "survive the next world"? By most Christian accounts I'll either spend an eternity in heaven or I'll spend an eternity in hell - either way survival is irrelevant.
Dan:
ReplyDeleteI don't say that I've never heard of a bible. I just note that they are man-made and so not a revelation. I have heard of "holy books" of different religions. But they are all man-made. None are the revelation of any god. There has been no direct appearance -- only people like you claiming the existence of one.
Are you absolutely certain Scripture is not a special revelation from God? If so, how are you certain? Also, as you also know, assuming that the Bible is not evidence for God because you do not believe God exists, is question begging.
DeleteYes, I am certain that "scripture" is NOT any kind of "special revelation".
DeleteEven archeology flies against the bible sometimes.
T.W. Davis, “Shifting Sands: The Rise and Fall of Biblical Archaeology”, Oxford 2004
I. Finkelstein, “The Bible Unearthed”, Free Press 2001
A.D. Marcus, “The View from Nebo”, Little, Brown & Co 2000
M. Sturgis, “It Ain’t Necessarily So”, Headline 2001
And no Dan...we do NOT assume that the bible is not evidence for god because we don't believe that god exists...we assume that the bible is not evidence for god because of the simple flaws within the book that reveal it to be just another man-mad work. See the books and the link above.
If you really want question begging: your blind assertions about "god" having revealed himself to everyone on the planet...that is question begging.
Dan:
ReplyDeleteIs is your claim that your god is so incompetent at making a revelation that people would not recognize it as such? Is he so pressed for time or otherwise constrained that he can't let people know individually that this is "originated by him"?
Incompetent? To give you freedoms to deny things? Hardly. You may be one of those that glorify the Lord from inside loved gates, I have no clue. I do know that God has revealed Himself to all mankind so that we can know for certain who He is. Those who deny His existence are suppressing the truth in unrighteousness to avoid accountability to God. It is the ultimate act of rebellion against Him and reveals the professing atheist's, yes that includes you too, contempt toward God. We call it self deception. Self deception is very powerful to the mind. I am sure you would agree. Right, Mr. "No way am I an Atheist"?
DeleteDan:
ReplyDeleteYou're making excuses. It is not a restriction on my freedom to know that grass is green and be unable to believe otherwise. Your god has NOT revealed himself to all mankind.
Suppose a muslim made similar noises to yours and said that you were a christian only because you were "suppressing the truth in unrighteousness because you didn't want to be accountable." Would you be impressed? Would you believe?
The fact is that you are lying. You know there is no such "revelation." You can see with your own eyes that people do not believe in your god. You can see that some believe in other gods. And you can see that people only start believing in your god when they are taught to do so by other people. I would like you to be honest with me.
God says you have no excuse for not believing as he has revealed himself through general revelation ie creation itself, no matter if you follow a pagan religion or not. Special revelation on the other hand is always going to be limited to the elect. People cannot be taught faith or repentance, this is proven by the fact that many children of religious parents become athiests and people like me who was bought up an athiest parents have become faithful. Nobody "taught" me, no person and no church, it came from God.
ReplyDeleteGod says you have no excuse for not believing as he has revealed himself through general revelation ie creation itself, no matter if you follow a pagan religion or not.
DeleteDamned stupid; unless you can find in nature tags that says "the god of abraham isaac and jacob" or some such thing, is the one who made all this, unbelievers DO have an "excuse" for not believing in any particular god.
Andrew:
ReplyDeleteNo, your god has said nothing. People only start to believe in your god when they are taught to do so by other people. Those other people are usually the parents, but not always. I daresay you didn't start believing in the biblical god without ever having seen or been told of a bible. If your god beamed the information into your head, that would be impressive. But he hasn't done the same for me -- let alone all mankind.
Its not a question of "God saying" but of doing. Of course i had heard of the Bible and Jesus but nobody taught me to seek them. The real question you raise of course is about election and free will. Its a fact that most people will reject and rebel againsdt God as you have done and he says you are without excuse for not believing as creation is self evident. God allows you freewill to rebel against him from the fall which you have taken full advantage of.
ReplyDeleteIts not a question of "God saying" but of doing.
DeleteSemantics; if God has not said, then God has not done - and you know this.
The only reason you're talking about what God has done is to ignore Pvblivs' comment in order to interject your own.
Andrew:
ReplyDeleteThis is not about election and free will, but about observation and evidence. Show me some evidence. Is that really too much to ask? Your god does not exist. Fundamentalist christians lie and say "you're just rebelling." But the fact is that no one presents any evidence. I treat your god as fictitious because that is what my senses tell me -- that your god is fictitious.
Andrew said (in response to pvblivs)
ReplyDeleteGod allows you freewill to rebel against him from the fall which you have taken full advantage of.
To what freewill are you referring? On the Christian view it is impossible to do anything that goes against the will of God. Anything that you choose must, therefore, be perfectly in keeping with what God wants. There is no such thing as freewill if Christianity is true.
>>There is no such thing as freewill if Christianity is true.
DeleteJust understand this is a complete strawman, not worthy of addressing. Please try again or go to some lectures on the subject. (bit.ly/Godfault)
Just understand this is a complete strawman
DeleteOver and over and over again, you demonstrate that you don't understand what a straw man argument is.
There is no such thing as freewill if Christianity is true.
DeleteNot to mention that the variety of free will that Christians seem committed to - libertarian or contra-causal free will - is incoherent.
D.A.N. said...
Delete>>There is no such thing as freewill if Christianity is true.
Just understand this is a complete strawman, not worthy of addressing.
Thanks for the warning although why you'd want to post a "complete strawman, not worthy of addressing" escapes me.
Please try again or go to some lectures on the subject.
Do you have a link to any lectures that do something other than handwave away the problem of nothing being possible apart from what God wills?
(bit.ly/Godfault)
I'll take that as a "no".
Now maybe you'd like to address the issue?
Considering that you claim your God is both omnipotent and omniscient and that He has a plan, then is it possible to do anything that contradicts the plan your God knows will come to pass exactly as He has willed it?
If the answer is yes then He's either a) not all powerful b) not omniscient c) has no plan or d) non-existent - all of which mean He's certainly not the Christian God depicted in the Bible and all of which are fatal to your worldview.
However, if you can't do something that contradicts the plan your omniscient and omnipotent God has for everyone/everything then you simply don't have freewill no matter how much you wave your hands and whine that you really do.
You're going to have to define your terms. A "plan" for God is entirely different than our plans, as we are within and restricted to, TIME. God is certainly not.
DeleteOur free decisions are indeed part of God's plan. How He orchestrates all of it is certainly a mystery to me, but that does not mean God cannot do something. It just means our understanding is limited. Every free decision you make is for God's glory. Yes, even your denial of Him. I denied God too, until the time He called me to Him as planed. The mind blowing thing is God knew that date when I would come to Him forevermore as a Christian. His plan. Thank the Lord!
Our free decisions are indeed part of God's plan.
DeleteGod makes plans based on what we freely decide?
Your free decisions ARE God's plan, yes bit.ly/Godfault
DeleteYour free decisions ARE God's plan
DeleteIf you were in the least bit honest about the things you say on your own blog, you wouldn't have written the above.
If my free decisions are God's plan, they're not free. If God's plan is based on my free decisions, my will takes precedence over His.
Your only possible avenue for explaining this fatal flaw is to pretend we never had this conversation.
A "plan" for God is entirely different than our plans, as we are within and restricted to, TIME. God is certainly not.
DeleteThe concept of a plan assumes time, since a plan is something to be achieved in the future, so you're off on the wrong foot straight away.
A timeless plan wouldn't be a plan at all.
Also, assuming that timeless person and timeless plan are coherent concepts (rather dubious), this plan pertains to us, and is therefore certainly limited by time (at least the part that includes us is).
So you're wrong on basically all counts DAN.
Havok: How are things back at Warden's blog? I've had enough of that fool so I haven't been back.
DeleteAnyway, Dan:
"Your life should be free from the love of money. Be satisfied with what you have, for He Himself has said, I will never leave you or forsake you." ~Hebrews 13:5
Amen.
There's also a similar verse in Proverbs I believe, that says that god will take care of all of your needs. So, why do xians even bother to have jobs then?
Reynold - they seem much the same. I'm not really visiting there much myself.
DeleteDAN: Your free decisions ARE God's plan, yes
If peoples decisions are fee in the libertarian sense, then they cannot constitute a plan, since they are completely undetermined - the result is unknown, and therefore the "planner" cannot say "that's what I meant all along".
Try again DAN :-)
D.A.N. said...
DeleteYou're going to have to define your terms.
I'm using the standard definitions. You on the other hand...
A "plan" for God is entirely different than our plans, as we are within and restricted to, TIME. God is certainly not.
Then you need to define exactly what it is God has if the common definition of "plan" isn't going to cover it. Especially if you're going to insist that God doesn't have any TIME in which to carry out the actions of forming and enacting His "plan". Actions presuppose time, take that away and all you have is inactivity, you're left trying to explain how God does anything when there's no time to do it in.
Our free decisions are indeed part of God's plan.
Hold on. You haven't defined "plan" in the context of a being unrestricted by, and outside of, time yet, or shown whether our decisions are actually "free" in that same context. How can you make this claim when we have no idea whether the concept of a "Godly plan" is even coherent?
How He orchestrates all of it is certainly a mystery to me, but that does not mean God cannot do something.
So freewill could just be so much bullshit. Your claim to the contrary is nothing but a bare assertion on your part. After all you have just stated that it is "a mystery" to you.
It just means our understanding is limited.
It's certainly not helped by your failure to demonstrate what a "Godly plan" might be, coupled with your adamant claim that freewill is definitely part of the "plan" that is "a mystery" to you...
Every free decision you make is for God's glory.
And back to barely asserting our decisions are free - when you've already admitted you don't know how it's done. Quality.
Yes, even your denial of Him.
Ignoring for a moment that you don't actually know this - "mystery" time again - if God didn't want me to deny Him would I be able to? On the Christian worldview such a denial would not be part of God's plan. His plan is fixed through His alleged omniscience and omnipotence so, logically, there's no way I could decide to deny Him if it wasn't already part of His plan. Freewill? Pshaw!
I denied God too, until the time He called me to Him as planed. The mind blowing thing is God knew that date when I would come to Him forevermore as a Christian. His plan. Thank the Lord!
In other words you denied Him according to His "plan" and then made the decision - a decision He knew you would make because it was part of His "plan" - to change your mind. There's nothing mindblowing about someone following a "plan" formed by an omniscient and omnipotent entity. To do something other than what the "plan" entails requires that the attribute of either omniscience or omnipotence no longer holds which, of course, means God stops being God.
It was never a free decision on your part. You could no more decide not to "come to Him" than you could decide to grow an extra leg.
God knows you, He created you after all, and He knew you would reject Him. You, or that, is part of His plan. Some are to glorify Him by rejecting Him.
DeleteAlso to avoid all this confusion, on the Atheists part, instead of calling it a "plan" maybe we should label it as His "will" instead. His will be done, and that may be you rejecting Him. Or, hopefully, you're to worship Him at a later date. That will continue to be my wish.
Plan insinuates a time schedule, but His Will doesn't necessarily claim a time schedule. It is just His Will.
He created you after all, and He knew you would reject Him.
DeleteSo he created pvblivs to reject God, and will punish pvblivs for doing exactly what God created him to do.
You've once again eliminated free choices.
His will be done,
This still implicitly assumes something in time. Call it whatever you want, but do try to be consistent with your tensed/tenseless claims.
and that may be you rejecting Him.
Since God's will be done, then the person rejecting God would have no choice but to reject him - there was no free choice involved
D.A.N. said...
DeleteGod knows you, He created you after all, and He knew you would reject Him. You, or that, is part of His plan. Some are to glorify Him by rejecting Him.
If this is true then I had no choice. Freewill? As I've pointed out, not in the Christian worldview.
Also to avoid all this confusion, on the Atheists part, instead of calling it a "plan" maybe we should label it as His "will" instead.
I did ask you to clarify what you meant by "plan" - taking specific care to show how it works in the context of a timeless deity. Unfortunately, you've decided to use yet another term ("will") which you will also now have to define in the context of a timeless deity.
As Havok notes, in normal parlance, to "will" something denotes an activity, albeit, in this case, a conscious activity. Activities require time in which to happen so it will be interesting to hear how God's "will" happens sans the very medium it presupposes.
His will be done, and that may be you rejecting Him.
Once again there's no free choice on my behalf, I will do whatever your God decides.
Or, hopefully, you're to worship Him at a later date.
What has hope got to do with it? It matters not what I or anyone else hopes, only what God knows - and wills - into being.
That will continue to be my wish.
But you're only wishing because God wills you to. It's all a bit hollow.
Plan insinuates a time schedule, but His Will doesn't necessarily claim a time schedule. It is just His Will.
Having a will might not necessarily presuppose time but, as has already been noted, exercising one's will is a conscious action. Actions presuppose time.
Of course I don't believe there is any way for you to denote any kind of activity when the context demands that there is no time in which it can take place but you're welcome to keep trying.
>>If this is true then I had no choice. Freewill?
DeleteFree choice? Yes. Free will? Not so much. That may be semantics, like the whole "God's plan" thing, but it needs to be pointed out. You do not have the free will to grow wings and fly like a bird, you do have the choice to jump out a window and crow like a bird as you plummet to your death.
>>Unfortunately, you've decided to use yet another term ("will") which you will also now have to define in the context of a timeless deity.
God's will is His vision, His intent and desires for Creation of mankind. It is hard to leave out "plan", I will admit.
>>As Havok notes, in normal parlance, to "will" something denotes an activity, albeit, in this case, a conscious activity.
There are more then one definition for that word. "Will" is also defined as a man's name. Does not mean that is the definition for God's will. I would use terms like purpose, determination, or disposition to describe the Will of God. "A conscious activity" is your asserted definition. Mere semantics again?
>>Once again there's no free choice on my behalf, I will do whatever your God decides.
Praise God! I wish that was the case. :7) I agree you're at mercy to His Judgment, that is true. Plus, you may have a point with Romans 14:11 in mind. Hopefully, that too will be a choice of yours.
>>What has hope got to do with it? It matters not what I or anyone else hopes, only what God knows - and wills - into being.
Hope is a bad thing? I will leave it to the Atheists to retard, or stifle, that therm not I. I, for one, love the term. "Hope" is a term that battles your atheistic outlook, Optimistic v's Pessimistic.
>>But you're only wishing because God wills you to. It's all a bit hollow.
The only thing hollow is my wishes that stand against His will. The will of Satan rings hollow.
>>Having a will might not necessarily presuppose time but, as has already been noted, exercising one's will is a conscious action. Actions presuppose time.
As I said, only if you're forcefully defining the terms in a limited manner. 'Will' is not the name of God's son either. Your argument is invalid. :7)
>>Of course I don't believe there is any way for you to denote any kind of activity when the context demands that there is no time in which it can take place but you're welcome to keep trying.
There cannot be real love without the option of free choice to reject that said love. That is what I am saying. My question to you is, why do you choose to stand against God? God may have created Satan for that express purpose. To provide the void of love, as darkness to light or cold to heat. YOU choose to follow the will of the devil. And that is to stand against the will of our Father. You're choosing darkness. You're siding with Satan when you were never asked to. THAT was your free choice to do so. Yes, God knew you would do so, but so what? That does not mean that, just because He chooses to Create a means for free choices to exist, an option (void) to stand against Love (God) does not mean He is forcing you make said choice. You are a slave to the master you chose. Sin
If I were you I would beg God for the rest of my life to accept me into His Kingdom, and throw yourself at the feet of Jesus Christ in trust. You know, the One that can save you from your chosen master.
Wow, Dan's argument is incoherent.
Delete'You have free will do to exactly as my god wants you to, which he decided to do from the start of time, because he's timeless'
As I say, absolutely incoherent.
DAN: Does not mean that is the definition for God's will.
DeleteSince you're now saying God's will is not like our will (just like God's plans are not like our plans) perhaps you'd care to actually define the term as applied to God (or use a different term)?
I would use terms like purpose, determination, or disposition to describe the Will of God.
ALL of those presuppose time. If God is timeless, as you've claimed, then he is frozen, cannot change, cannot think, can do nothing, since there is no time to plan, act, etc.
DAN: "A conscious activity" is your asserted definition. Mere semantics again?
Is your God conscious DAN?
Consciousness happens in time, so your God could not be conscious. Agents act in time, so your God couldn't be an agent. Your God, if it existed, would be "frozen".
DAN: Hope is a bad thing?
On your view DAN, hope is useless, since God's will be done. There is nothing to hope for, no possibility to change things from how God has determined them, no free choice.
DAN: My question to you is, why do you choose to stand against God?
I won't speak for anyone else, but I suspect their answer is the same as mine - I don't stand against god since god does not exist.
DAN: To provide the void of love, as darkness to light or cold to heat. YOU choose to follow the will of the devil.
Not if I'm predestined by your god's will to do so - I had no choice in the matter, since god's will be done.
DAN: Yes, God knew you would do so, but so what?
On your view god could have created each and every one of us differently, such that we would not choose as we have. Our choices are dependant upon god's will, not our own. God would be punishing people for his own failings.
DAN, you seem to get more incoherent the more you try to explain things.
Prediction: Now Dan has started a new topic with a new post, he will leave all of the difficult questions unanswered. These questions will join the hundreds others that he has dodged over the years.
DeleteD.A.N. said...
Delete>>If this is true then I had no choice. Freewill?
Free choice? Yes.
How so? On the Christian worldview I cannot choose something that goes contrary to what your God wills. Whether you call it free choice or freewill does not change that fact.
Free will? Not so much.
Thank you for the admission.
That may be semantics, like the whole "God's plan" thing, but it needs to be pointed out. You do not have the free will to grow wings and fly like a bird, you do have the choice to jump out a window and crow like a bird as you plummet to your death.
Except, of course, that, on your worldview, I don't. The only way I could make such a choice would be if God willed it. There is no escaping this when you posit an omnimax deity with a "plan" for it's creation.
>>Unfortunately, you've decided to use yet another term ("will") which you will also now have to define in the context of a timeless deity.
God's will is His vision, His intent and desires for Creation of mankind. It is hard to leave out "plan", I will admit.
>>As Havok notes, in normal parlance, to "will" something denotes an activity, albeit, in this case, a conscious activity.
There are more then one definition for that word. "Will" is also defined as a man's name. Does not mean that is the definition for God's will. I would use terms like purpose, determination, or disposition to describe the Will of God. "A conscious activity" is your asserted definition. Mere semantics again?
You've used a whole raft of words here that are carefully chosen to try and avoid the concept of action - "vision", "intent", "desires", "purpose", "determination", "disposition" - none of them explicitly denotes an activity, however, as Havok has once again noted, these attributes you now use to describe God's will still presuppose that there is time when that will is exercised i.e. it's vision bought to fruition, it's intent bought about, it's desires attained. It can be purposeful, determined and disposed during the exercising but it will still need time in order to achieve any of this. How does this work for an alleged timeless deity? Answer: It doesn't.
>>Once again there's no free choice on my behalf, I will do whatever your God decides.
Praise God! I wish that was the case. :7)
You're the Christian Dan, how can you possibly think that I'm capable of doing anything which goes against your God's plan to glorify Himself? I mean I get the rationalisation, i.e. that to accept that, on your worldview, you have no freewill means that there's no way to excuse your God for His evil actions. Everything you do, you do because God wills it leads inexorably back to "Adam didn't freely choose to eat the fruit, he merely did what His God had already planned for him".
I agree you're at mercy to His Judgment, that is true. Plus, you may have a point with Romans 14:11 in mind. Hopefully, that too will be a choice of yours.
Again with the claim of a choice I cannot possibly make if Christianity is true. According to Romans 14:11 I will bend my knee and confess to God, it says nothing about that being a free choice.
cont'd...
cont'd...
Delete>>What has hope got to do with it? It matters not what I or anyone else hopes, only what God knows - and wills - into being.
Hope is a bad thing?
Strawman. I never said it was bad, just that it is useless if the Christian worldview is true.
I will leave it to the Atheists to retard, or stifle, that therm not I.
It is your Bible that makes the term useless to the Christian by describing your God as omnipotent, omniscient and having a "plan".
I, for one, love the term. "Hope" is a term that battles your atheistic outlook, Optimistic v's Pessimistic.
And yet it is incoherent for you to hope against what your God has already willed.
>>But you're only wishing because God wills you to. It's all a bit hollow.
The only thing hollow is my wishes that stand against His will.
It's even funnier than that - you can only wish the wishes you wish against His will if He wills you to wish wishes against His will. In essence you're never wishing against His will because everything you wish is willed by Him. This is the absurdity of your position.
The will of Satan rings hollow.
Random non sequitur is random.
>>Having a will might not necessarily presuppose time but, as has already been noted, exercising one's will is a conscious action. Actions presuppose time.
As I said, only if you're forcefully defining the terms in a limited manner.
I asked you for your definition and I've noted above that you were very careful to avoid saying anything that explicity described action. However, we both know that, on your view, your God doesn't just have a will, He has exercised that will in order to bring glory to Himself. This makes a mockery of the claim for "timelessness" and destroys the claim of free will/free choice.
'Will' is not the name of God's son either. Your argument is invalid. :7)
Random non sequitur is still random.
>>Of course I don't believe there is any way for you to denote any kind of activity when the context demands that there is no time in which it can take place but you're welcome to keep trying.
Your response below doesn't address what I said about activity and timelessness above ... at all. It's another total non sequitur.
There cannot be real love without the option of free choice to reject that said love.
Then there cannot be real love in the Christian worldview since you cannot reject God's love unless He first wills that you reject His love.
That is what I am saying.
And I'm just pointing out that what you're saying, when it's not completely incoherent, is contradictory to the description of God in the Bible.
cont'd...
cont'd...
DeleteMy question to you is, why do you choose to stand against God?
In what way am I "stand[ing] against God"? I do not believe any gods exist which makes it impossible to "stand against" one and, on the Christian worldview, I cannot possibly "stand against God", afterall, His will be done.
God may have created Satan for that express purpose. To provide the void of love, as darkness to light or cold to heat.
Satan, were he actually real, can no more "stand against God" than I could. On the Christian worldview Satan is merely doing what God has willed him to.
YOU choose to follow the will of the devil. And that is to stand against the will of our Father. You're choosing darkness. You're siding with Satan when you were never asked to. THAT was your free choice to do so.
Firstly, on my worldview, there are no gods and no devils so I cannot choose to follow the will of either. Secondly, on your worldview, it's not possible to stand against God's will. Even if I choose to follow the will of Satan I'm still only doing what your God wills - His plan includes Satan after all - unless you're now claiming that Satan's will can actually go against what God decrees?
Yes, God knew you would do so, but so what? That does not mean that, just because He chooses to Create a means for free choices to exist, an option (void) to stand against Love (God) does not mean He is forcing you make said choice.
Based on His attributes as specified in the Bible, yes, it does mean that He is forcing me to make said choice. It is logically impossible for me to choose otherwise without changing the description of God - at which point He's no longer God.
You are a slave to the master you chose. Sin
And yet, on your worldview, it is God's will that I "sin". On Christianity I am a slave alright, a slave to whatever your God wills for me.
If I were you I would beg God for the rest of my life to accept me into His Kingdom, and throw yourself at the feet of Jesus Christ in trust.
How would this begging help me? Is your omnimax deity suddenly going to change His mind - change His plan for me? And how is he going to make such a change when he already knows what's going to happen? Is He omniscient or not? The contradictions caused by the incompatible attributes you choose to assign to your God just keep on coming.
You know, the One that can save you from your chosen master.
To what choice are you referring? On Christianity there is no such thing as choice, God is my master and I can only do what He wills, so how is Jesus going to save me from Jesus?
Dan:
ReplyDeleteYou called a conclusion based on the claims of christianity a "straw man." You are incorrect. It would be reasonable if you attacked the premises an invocations of a straw man. But you didn't do that. He does not say that christianity directly teaches that there is no free will. He said that christian beliefs are incompatible with free will. It's just that christians don't think about it very much.
"Also to avoid all this confusion, on the [a]theists part, instead of calling it a 'plan' maybe we should label it as [h]is 'will' instead."
ReplyDeleteOr... just the strings he uses to control people like puppets. Look if your god (or any god, for that matter) decides my actions through his will, then I am not really in control of my own actions and do not actually have free will. In order for me to have free will, I must be able to choose actions that are beyond anyone else's power to control. The omnipotence you claim for your god denies the free will of all other beings.
pvblivs: In order for me to have free will, I must be able to choose actions that are beyond anyone else's power to control.
DeleteI think that is only the case if you are referring to libertarian conceptions of free will (which most theists seem committed to).
>>In order for me to have free will, I must be able to choose actions that are beyond anyone else's power to control.
DeleteI don't even call it "free will" because if I had the will to grow wings and fly like a bird, does not mean I can. No, you have free choices. Choices that God uses to His glory.
"No, you have free choices."
Delete....which aren't choices at all, because they are 100% born of your god's 'will'.
You're so close to admitting that, in the Christian worldview, there is no such thing as 'free will' or 'choice' - why don't you simply take that final step, Dan?
Dan:
ReplyDeleteI did not claim that free will required omnipotence. But it doesn't matter what you call it. Free will doesn't mean that I am unlimited in my actions. It requires that no one else decides my actions for me. Under your christian beliefs, if I make a sandwich it is because you god has decided it. Your christian beliefs deny my free will (or "free choice" or whatever else you want to call it. According to what you say, anything I do is just a result of your god pulling strings.
If your god has decided in advance (by for example pushing an "accept button" or "reject button" on each person) then there is no free will, no free choice -- just an evil being that likes to watch suffering. According to your beliefs, even the one you call "Satan" had no choice in the matter. Your god just pushed the "reject button" so that he would act the way he does. You worship evil.
>>Under your christian beliefs, if I make a sandwich it is because you god has decided it.
DeleteI believe that would be considered a strawman. Not decided it, but allowed it, is what I would say. There is a difference. Romans 13:2 states you resist His decisions about you.
>>Your christian beliefs deny my free will
Only because you choose your master. Sin. Now you're a slave to sin because God POSSIBLY has given you over to that lie. (2 Thessalonians 2:11) But I will remain hopeful He is still working with you. That is between you and Him though. I cannot judge that one point.
>>If your god has decided in advance (by for example pushing an "accept button" or "reject button" on each person) then there is no free will, no free choice
Thinking abstractly here, if I looked into the future and saw what you would decide and then come back to present time to "press the reject button" did I affect your decision?
>>-- just an evil being that likes to watch suffering.
Are you NOW complaining that you exist? Really? That is your complaint?
>> According to your beliefs, even the one you call "Satan" had no choice in the matter.
He did though, and chose not to worship God, as Scripture says. You have evidence to the contrary?
>>Your god just pushed the "reject button" so that he would act the way he does.
Or He hit it because He saw the way you act as you do.
>>You worship evil.
Said the person who rejected the moral standard you're appealing to, when you say that. Are you certain that you don't? If so, how are you absolutely certain? BTW, what is evil?
DAN: I believe that would be considered a strawman. Not decided it, but allowed it, is what I would say.
DeleteI believe you're mistaken.
Your god, who you've claimed is omniscient, would have known that pvblivs for all eternity.
Your god, who you've claimed is omnipotent, could have created pvblivs such that he didn't choose to make that sandwich.
Your god, if it existed, would have decided freely (since your god is also supposed to be "perfectly free") to make pvblivs such that he would make that sandwich, in accordance with his will.
Therefore, pvblivs making said sandwich would be entirely due to gods will, and not the result of any "free choice" of his own, if your god existed.
DAN: Only because you choose your master. Sin. Now you're a slave to sin because God POSSIBLY has given you over to that lie.
pvblivs freely chose something that your god deluded him into doing?
That's not a coherent statement DAN.
DAN: Thinking abstractly here, if I looked into the future and saw what you would decide and then come back to present time to "press the reject button" did I affect your decision?
For a start, you're presupposing time in this analogy, so it's already suspect.
Also, since if we follow your analogy, your pressing of the "reject" button is what was actually responsible for pvblivs doing what he did/deciding as he did, then in fact you did effect his decision. Had you not pressed the reject button, pvblivs would have done otherwise.
DAN: He did though, and chose not to worship God, as Scripture says.
And all according to god's will, therefore Satan was created by your god, so that he would not chose to worship god, therefore your god is responsible for this choice, not Satan (who could not have chosen otherwise).
DAN: Or He hit it because He saw the way you act as you do.
And yet it's the pushing of the "reject" button which causes the act, not the other way around.
Or are you saying that your god is not omnipotent and omniscient?
DAN: Are you certain that you don't? If so, how are you absolutely certain?
DAN, you should stick to this sort of argument. It's idiotic, but at least it's not obviously irrational and incoherent.
ps. How can you be absolutely certain that the being you claim revealed itself to you is omnipotent and omniscient, without being omnipotent and omniscient yourself? :-)
Dan, how is it even possible for your god to 'punish' those who have done nothing but his (according to you) inescapable 'will'?
ReplyDeleteAs a Calvinist how do you even square the idea of the sacrifice of Jesus? If everyone has either been 'saved' or 'condemned' from the start of time (whatever THAT means, with you as yet unexplained timeless deity!) how is anyone 'guilty' or 'holy'?
According to your worldview we're nothing more than helpless automata running through unbreakable programming for the entertainment of some ultimate puppet master.
Calvinists are evil sociopathic fuckers. In order to have it so that nothing is outside of god's control or will, whatever so that they can feel comfortable that everything no matter how lousy, is going according to some higher plan, they wind up making their god the one who sets up all sorts of shit. Even though it makes their god look like a complete asshole, they have no problem with it, because it's all going according to his will. They derive security from that.
DeleteThe fact that that way of thinking makes them and their god look evil is of no interest to them. Their security takes priority.
To see a truly chilling example of this mindset, see here.
Their link to his website is outdated, so here is the link to the actual quoted article.
Reynold thanks for those links.
DeleteIt's indeed chilling that someone could debase their humanity and empathy such that they believe that rubbish is actually "good".
The author writes some very funny stuff. Chilling, but funny.
The vicious circle of arguing with Dan who is presumably a fundamentalist who is so blind by his belif he cannot see or comprehend a world in which gods do not exist...therefore everyone and everything must fit into his world...he tries to imply logic on shallow ground...I noticed when anyone argues him on a valid point he shifts gears immediately...someone implied he is a troll and he could be but I seeing the majority of his replies I think he really believes what he is saying.
ReplyDeleteThanks Daniel. Yes, I'm sincere. I am just relaying what God is revealing to all of us. I have nothing to add than what Jesus Christ has already revealed. I do apply the teachings in every aspect of my life. Ultimately, yes, this is God's revealed reality, and we all do fit into that world. It's not mine. I'll answer your other comments soon, as they're in my inbox, I just have taken some time for my kids. It's a new week though. :)
DeleteThat's always a good thing...I have to say I wish my girlfriends ex did the same thing....
ReplyDelete