I believe we are doing a disservice to mankind by enacting God's will on anyone. God gave us free will to choose to love Him. Why should we force things on people? For their own good?Throughout History people that believe to be enacting God's will have failed to do just that.
Hitler believed he was enacting God's will during The Holocaust.
A leader of the false religion of Mormonism called LDS Church named Brigham Young thought he was enacting God's will when he ordered the killings of 120 men, women and children in what is now known as the Mountain Meadows massacre. On a side note, there is a great movie called September Dawn that I highly recommend if you want to understand the false and tragic thinking of the Mormons. Chills went down my spine when they were screaming "Blood Atonement" over and over again.
Many believe the Crusades was a huge stain on our history when the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) murdered many, but they were a direct response to Islam's attacks on the innocent people believing they, the Muslims, were enacting their god's will.
Another fine example is Andrea Yates (raised Roman Catholic), who lived an hour away from me at the time, decided to drown all five of her children. She claimed "It was the seventh deadly sin. My children weren't righteous. They stumbled because I was evil. The way I was raising them, they could never be saved. They were doomed to perish in the fires of hell."
We can plainly see the pattern of people acting as God. People that are not of God, love, try to enact the will of God. This horrible misunderstanding of Scripture is what delivers them to the devil. God is God, we are not. God knows all and we do not. If a person blows up a abortion clinic they are doing the devil's work, not God's. If some joker is claiming to heal people of spinal bifida he is of the devil.
So what we need to take from this is the fact there is only one God and we are to worship Him. Any deviation and the results are horrific. Once we start reasoning ourselves we stop letting God be in charge. Let God do God's work, as we can plainly see, He is much better at it then man is. The key is that everything that is contrary to God comes from the enemy of our souls.
Proverbs 3:5-6 "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths."
Hitler believed he was enacting God's will [when he ordered atrocities to be committed]
ReplyDelete...Brigham Young thought he was enacting God's will [when he ordered atrocities to be committed[
...Roman Catholic Church (RCC) [ordered atrocities to be committed] to enact God's will
...Andrea Yates...decided to [commit an atrocity because she was enacting god's will]
Moses ordered atrocities to be committed to enact god's will. Joshua ordered atrocities to be committed to enact god's will. Abraham attempted to murder his own son to enact god's will.
The list is far longer than I care to type, and you are just as aware of it as I am, as are many of the readers of this blog.
We can plainly see the pattern of people acting as God. People that are not of God try to enact the will of God.
Yes, that pattern is painfully obvious. That pattern is only one of a whole set of reasons so many former believers (though not True Christians™, according to you) have abandoned Christianity (among other religions) -- no joker has the right, despite his audacity, to claim divine inspiration for what is an evil act. Any such joker is a liar.
You fail, however, in your conclusions and your analysis. You recognize easily that those entities with which you disagree, despite an apparent similarity in dogma, are evil and deluded. You are easily able to identify their handiwork as not stemming from a truly good deity.
You fail, though, because you are unable and/or unwilling to make the simple jump from the fact that their attempts (some more 'successful' than others) at committing atrocities in the name of god are in fact evil, to the fact that so, too, are many of the actions so meticulously chronicled in your silly bible. Moses et al ordered the slaying of indigenous children during the murderous wars described in such detail in the bible. Abraham bound his son and placed him on an altar to be burned, and actually brought the knife down to there slay his son, only to be stopped at the last possible moment. Nevermind the failed murder there, recognize the will and intent to murder -- evil.
You're absolutely right:
We can plainly see the pattern of people acting as God. People that are not of God try to enact the will of God.
But don't let that stop you...
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Stan
(back from vacation)
Welcome back Stan,
ReplyDeleteNice point. I cannot refute your Moses addition or Abraham for that matter. If I said "but God talked to them" one could claim that the others did also. The only thought that comes to mind at the moment is that the Bible says to test it's fruit to see if it is from God. A good tree will bear good fruit. That says nothing for the Yates children "after the fact" though.
Wait if we look at things from man's perspective all these things are bad. But the Yates children are in a much better situation and they all went to heaven. If Heaven is a reality then it is the goal. If you are thrown in a Lion's Den for being a Christian your reward for your faith is coming soon. If your Mom murders you, your reward is Heaven. If you kill your own kids, be afraid be very afraid. Good points.
The closer we get to truth, the closer we get to God. We seek truth!
this message is to dearest dan.
ReplyDeleteI'm so sorry to not have noticed your comments on my blog (www.theend-2012.blogspot.com).
And for that I apologize.
That website you asked me to check out wasn't much help. Whenever I choose an answer they didn't agree on, I'd either have to exit or redo.
Which just about proves my point.
Religion forces itself on people. It kills freedom of thought. Imagine a world where all 6 billion of us worshiped Christ. Wouldn't that be sickening?
No variation, no clashing opinions. Just theist, absorbing what's written in the Bible.
Please understand, I'm not an anti christ/anti religionist. In fact, if the world was running out of Christians, I'd probably be on your side.
I just think, this world needs balance. I'm not strong in my conviction though, so, same time next week, I could be a Buddhist.
LOL.
Take care.
I rather expected you to bust out the "good trees bear good fruit" test, tired and relative though it may be, but fear not! I am prepared.
ReplyDeleteAbortion is, by virtue of the fruit it produces, the most selfless act possible. Every human fetus should be aborted, every time -- after all, the children they might have become will all find their way to heaven, right?
It is only the process of birth, and of growing and learning in the world that humans become sinners destined to hell (barring some other intervention), and although the would-be aborter(s) might well be sealing their hot fate in hell, let their sacrifice be recognized as being the most prolific heaven-filling action in the history of the universe!
Abortion produces good fruit, does it not?
Likewise, we can use your fruit-test (fruity-test?) on Moses and Abraham (take them in whatever order you wish -- Moses is purported to be the author of the Abraham legend, so it doesn't matter).
With either of them, it can be said, truthfully, that the chronicling of their lives is responsible for each of the atrocities you cited in your original post. Hitler was raised as a Catholic, and this was undoubtedly the god he aimed to please. Young was the preeminent Mormon. The Roman Catholic Church is, well, the Roman Catholic Church. Yates was a whacko, but a professing Christian nonetheless.
The tie that binds?
Moses and/or Abraham -- the teachings of the very bible you here claim to be divinely inspired and true in every detail (albeit from a "plain reading" a la Ken Ham).
Would you like to have your cake and eat it, too?
Without the biblical depictions of Moses and Abraham, none of these atrocities could have occurred, at least in their realized form. As such, the only rational verdict is that the fruit of Abraham and/or Moses is in fact rotten.
Not all of it? Sure. Occasionally a reasonably tasty specimen can be found, but at the very least, their fruit is extremely susceptible to spoiling. It is at times absolutely poisonous, and at other times merely bitter. It has its uses, but after more than one or two of these trees the truly edible fruit trees are choked out of existence, and the fly and hornet populations which invariably call these trees "home" become unbearably large. What little shade they provide is worthless, as their branches are so low-hanging and dense that it couldn't be enjoyed anyway.
No, Dan, those trees produce foul fruit, and the only reason you can survive from eating so regularly of it is because you have evolved to the point that your body can ignore some of the grimmer consequences. Like the pomegranate, you know just how to dig beyond the poisonous exterior to reach the small portions of taste inside. You eat only an increasingly small percentage of the actual fruit -- the tree itself is evolving, you see, to produce more toxic fruit.
How far can I go with this? Well, I am a migrant worker, picking the fruit, pruning the trees, and sampling of them here and there. I make my pittance of a wage, experience a fleeting existence in the field, and am gone. You were once like me (as I you, ironically), and stopped moving, to choose this one particularly vile tree. For one reason or another it intrigued you, and you have since set up camp beneath it. Your children are told how all other trees are deadly to them, and that even their own chosen tree's fruit must be carefully shelled and shucked before eating it. They are warned that any failure to adhere to the traditional harvesting procedure will result in certain death. My children know otherwise. They know that there are plenty of trees out there, with plenty of fruits, most of which are better tasting, more nutritious, and easier to safely devour. Since we have such a fuller knowledge of horticulture, we also recognize that we may eat of berries and leafy vegetation, not just tree-fruit.
Good trees bear good fruit?
What, then, is the fruit of Abraham and/or Moses? Death, genocide, rape, pillaging, plunder -- atrocities en masse, committed in the name of their god, or a derivation of it. Atrocities committed by them, by their followers, and by those who followed after, sometimes altering the original, but always based upon it.
--
Stan
Stan,
ReplyDeleteSo there you go. Do you feel better getting that off you chest. Your worldview untethered and free to roam. I feel bad, I am stumped as to how to answer your questions when I myself have questions. I say let God do the job and you are screaming back "Why does he get to be in charge?"
The difference is I can leave my kids with Jesus and you can't. You would never trust Him enough to allow him to watch your children. You think he is awful. You need "evidence" or some proof from God to get "your" worship and I don't believe you will ever get it. As your Father he has done enough to show His love for you. You are like a teenager that wants to go out with his friends and your "Father" won't let you. You are bitter and angry and want to fight Him. Has that ever helped the situation? In your hormonal rage you think your "Father" hates you but he is looking out for your best interest.
No, abortions do not produces good fruit and that is testable and verifiable. The condition that girl is far worse then if she would of had the Baby. Mentally and physically and emotionally.
You know I didn't get into this blog with any visions of grandeur where every atheist would bow to Christ and repent of their ways and we all sing Hymns until the second coming of Christ. I wanted to reach out shake your hand and say hi I still trust Christ, what happened to stop your trust in Him?
Trust is everything, Doubt is the catalyst of atheism.
I trust Christ enough to reserve that doubt until He can tell me directly what was the reasons for things. I will give Him the benefit of my doubt until He can explain things better to me. I trust Him, He is innocent until proven guilty. No one has rested their case. If it turns out He is wicked then move over you are going to have a roommate in hell. That will never be the case. We seek truth and righteousness therefor we seek God. Somehow though you twisted it to believe that the devil (self) is the good guy in all of thisand God is the wretched one. Good luck with that
What, then, is the fruit of Abraham and/or Moses? To pave the path of the single greatest miricle to happen on this lost world. To allow us wretched people a way to be with our Heavenly Father. That path gave us a Savior that was bruised for our iniquities to take our punishment so we can be set free from our sins and to have everlasting life. That single greatest miricle of all time ever is he defeated death and rose from the grave to save us forever. Please just take the gift offered to you, don't look that gift horse in the mouth looking for more. All your questions will be answered but you have to do it His way not yours. After all your just a child and you don't know any better yet.
Subhash,
ReplyDelete"Whenever I choose an answer they didn't agree on, I'd either have to exit or redo."
Subhash is talking about the website Proof that God exists
Subhash if it kept kicking you out then you weren't following along logically IF you answered "I don't care if absolute logic exists" then you get booted you are not ready for logical reasoning. Either that or you clicked "Molesting children for fun could be right" button which I doubt. Unless you are post modern then you may feel raping and molesting children for fun may be OK for other. I don't know you enough to make that judgment though so don't think I am accusing you of any such a thing. Try to follow along the logic you may be surprised what absolute truth is.
You said "Religion forces itself on people. It kills freedom of thought. I could be a Buddhist"
A friend once said to me: "That is, our religion is from the Creator. It is a result of our hope and trust in God. It is the natural fruit. False religions have stolen from God and not the other way around. False religions have a common denominator and that is there assault on the term "Justification." They are working toward their salvation. We are working as a result of our salvation.
A religion that is pure in the sight of God is a "discipline" which results and originates, from God. We do these things as a result of being justified. We do these things because God has declared us "not guilty" because of the passive/active obedience of the Messiah being given to us as a gift. His works are what save us. In contrast, the religions of the world who deny justification seek to bring their "religious" efforts to God to "save" them.
We as believers have a beautiful religion because it is a fruit which comes from God. It starts with him and ends with him. Like I said; the religion we show is a result of what God did. It is an external response. For example, we love because he first loved us right? The false religions out there have a completely different gospel. As a result they bring their filthy rags and present then to God thinking they are working their way to God. We have been made clean by the word. The false religions make themselves clean." (Moshe, carm.org)
Psst Subhash, Buddhism is a false religion.