October 20, 2008

Sincerity towards Hard Hearts

Y'all do understand we are here to help, not hurt right? Do you reject the sincerity from believers that care enough about you to spend the time to talk to you to get you to really understand the fate of all of us? I was reading the sincerity of a guy writing to an atheist and I enjoyed what was written so much I just wanted to share it with all of you:

"I really, truly know and understand where you are coming from, before I was saved, I thought many of the thoughts you do. I was more of an agnostic than an atheist, I believed that there "may" be a god, but really had no clue. I believed in the theory of evolution, not so much because I had examined the claims, but because it was what I was taught to be true. If you want to pass biology you fill in the little choice box that the teacher says should be filled in, right?

Months before God saved me and opened my eyes to the truth, I lived a, well, sordid life, I not only thought sinful thoughts, I lived many of them out, I was "bad", really bad, but the funny thing I thought I was a pretty "good" guy deep down, I just wanted to live my own life, be in control of me. I didn't hear Ray or any other preacher, I actually heard some evolution scientist on some radio show talk about Carl Sagan and I started looking into some of his research, then it led me to more, and more, until I came across some site about prophecy and theories about Jesus Christ and the whole bit, the did He exist debate, I think you know what I mean. Anyway I decided, if what Jesus claims is wrong then Christianity is a lie, but if what He claims is true, then I have some serious thinking to do. That day I picked up a bible, of which I had only read a handful of verses ever before in my life, and started reading the new testament. I was surprised, it was nothing like what the movies portrayed, it was more detailed about His life, He clearly claims to be God, the God, the ONLY God, well, if this, Jesus is God then what He says better line up with what I know to be true, evolution, what I think is right and wrong, and He had better let me control my own life. Well, what I read was the complete opposite of what I thought was true.

I was quite angry at the ideas in the bible, really I was stunned at the claims. No way, this can't be true, if it is, then I've been living a lie, the world is deceived and we are all headed for Hell. I mean this IS what the bible teaches, isn't it?

Well that's what I thought it taught. Like many who post here, I thought God was some cosmic meany, I mean why create us, why let all this evil just happen, and why kill you only Son? I didn't "really" understand the bible, I just read it and picked out things that I didn't agree with, or things that made me look bad, I didn't ask why. When I did start asking why, and really asking God, why, then He started answering. Not in voices, or visions, but as I read and reread it started making sense.

Life really isn't about me, except in my own head, it's called pride. I started to see that this God who claims to have created everything is holy, doesn't change, righteous, and frighteningly enough, JUST! I listened to a couple preachers on the internet, and they helped me understand that it is not Gods will that I go to Hell, and then explained my sin, Gods holiness, and then about Jesus Christ. And this is what I understood. God is Lord, Jesus is God, God created us in His image to glorify Him, we sinned, we keep sinning, and living for self or other people, not Him, He did a lot of things providentially in and throughout the Old testament in order to point to the coming of His Son, Jesus Christ who would save mankind from their sins against Him. Jesus came and took the punishment, the wrath of God against the sin of the world, upon Himself, SO THAT we could be saved, to provide A WAY to not get what we deserve, justice. As I read and as I listened God did a work in me, it was a work of repentance, I was justified, saved. I know it wasn't because of lack of intelligence, I'm not stupid, I'm Joe average, like most people. It was because God sovereignty chose to save me. It was then that I realized, the reason I asked the questions I did, the reason I opened the bible that day, the reason I read and listened with an open heart is not because of me, but because God is God and He is God of EVERYTHING, and He does what He will. I didn't "choose" to be a Christian, and if you would have asked me that morning, I probably would have laughed it off, but I didn't laugh that afternoon. I wept, and wept and I realized whom against I had sinned, my Lord and my God, Jesus Christ. Forgive me, oh God forgive me. It was the worst and the best day of my life.

Worst because I finally saw myself in truth, not as I wanted to see myself, but as I really am, a filthy, wretched, sinner. And best because God chose to save ME! Little me, the God of the universe actually cares about me, no not cares, actually loves me. Not because of who I am, be in spite of who I am. WOW. What a God, I spit in His face in the morning, and He forgives me in the afternoon. Praise God.

I don't believe the bible because I was convinced by man, but by God, and I don't think any man can convince anybody in becoming a Christian, I think it is a work of God alone. There is nothing in man that attains toward the true God of the bible, it is only when God draws a man to Himself that the man will begin to draw near to God. It is all the work of God. I know this is very Calvinistic, but it is what Jesus taught, what Paul taught. Before anyone can repent God must change their heart.

I don't know who God will save, that is His choice, but He has commanded me to go and preach the gospel. And I know it is the gospel, the word of God, the bible, that God uses to create, command, and save mankind, whom He saves and when He saves is up to Him alone.

We all in rebellion to Jesus Christ our Lord, all of us. But He commands ALL men everywhere to repent, but we don't want to, we want to be our own lords. So He must work in the hearts of those He is saving before they will repent, only then will we surrender, and stop shaking our fist, only then will we bend our knee and praise Him who alone is worthy, the sinless lamb of God, Jesus Christ.

He is your Lord, and you will bow your knee. The question is will you bend your knee to Him as Lord on the day of judgment, or will you bend your knee today as Lord AND Savior?

Please don't just write this of as some religious nonsense. Be honest about it. Ask the tough questions, have you sinned, you know, lie, stolen... You've heard this all before. If you are truly honest with yourself, you know you have, and before you justify it by saying, "yeah but...", really think about, think about what the bible says about God, not what unsaved man says, unregenerate man hates God, they will say anything to try to make Him look bad. What does the bible actually say.

Most importantly what is TRUE. Not what do you believe to be true, not what seems to make the most "logical" sense, but what is really, actually true?

I will be praying for you to God, may the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ shine down on you." (ShiVeR)Curtis

29 comments:

  1.      Actually, Dan, I am inclined to think that you (collectively) are here to hurt rather than help. I shall illustrate by way of analogy. It is like you are trying to lead us off a cliff we can see, while telling us you are leading us away from a cliff we can't. You are telling to substitute your word for our empirical observations. So when we make a test, tossing a pebble in each of the directions, you tell us it is an illusion. Even though we see the roll along our path and fall off an edge when going the way you suggest, you insist that the reality was reversed.
         My experience from reading the bible was the reverse of Shiver's. I found the biblical god to incredibly unjust. In fact, the claim of "he does what he will" would not be considered just when applied to any other being.

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  2. Dan, I'm still waiting for an answer:

    Do you support torture?

    Please respond (here or in that thread).

    --
    Stan

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  3. Let's assume the Bible to be the inerrant word of God. This does not mean that it does not also contain "lies".

    When your 3 year old looks at you and asks "Where do the clouds come from?", do you tell her about meteorology and terms like condensation and evaporation? Or do you give her something designed to appeal to her sense of curiosity as a 3 year old?

    If you did the latter, did that make you a liar? Or was it intended to give her an answer that she might be satisfied with?

    Yeah, assuming Jesus = God, he showed up when were were pretty barbaric. Public stonings, the inability to explain things like the weather or the stars, wealth measured in terms of goats. It's not overly ridiculous to assume he explained things in terms we were able to understand - rather than showing us how stupid & retarded & utterly misguided we were.

    I don't find the inaccuracies in the Bible to be particularly shocking, but I certainly don't find them more credible than my senses & modern science.

    You may choose to abdicate responsibility for your understanding of the world around you - but that represents neither faith nor wisdom.

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  4. ... and as a followup, Shiver(Curtis) is another Cut 'n' Paste fundamentalist over at Ray's. I have a hard time assuming as credible someone who uses the words of other people to do his debating.

    More to the point of your post, Saint Bernard of Clairvaux (1091-1153) put it best: "Hell is full of good intentions or desires."

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  5. Dan, one warning. Take that image down off of my book on Amazon now. You have no right to do that and I reported it to Amazon. I call on everyone to report it to Amazon. Take it down of you own volition or you will be banned from DC and I will summarily delete all of your comments.

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  6. What say you to John's charge? I checked the Amazon cache for John's book, and sure enough, your "Evolution Exposed" image is front-and-center, and the profile attributed with this slander is none other than yours.

    What say you?

    I suspend judgment pending your response, but I can assure you that whoever the perpetrator may be, he is a giant douche.

    --
    Stan

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  7. (Just to be clear -- I don't know that you are the perpetrator, and I would prefer to hear that you are not, but regardless of whether or not you are guilty here, the perpetrator is a giant douche.)

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  8. stan,

    The user that uploaded the picture to Amazon was Dan Marvin.

    Dan,

    Does that happen to be you?

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  9. Yes it was me,

    It was up for a very short time though. I saw that you could upload a picture so I did it as a experiment to test the feature, and went to lunch. John must of seen it minutes after I did it. It made me wonder if the person is notified when someone posts a picture. I believe, it was harmless and when the book arrives, yes a copy is being sent to me by the publisher for review, and I will be reviewing the book here.

    Mountains out of mole hills, maybe?

    John said "and I will summarily delete all of your comments."

    But what he forgets to remember is that he has already been doing that for quite some time, the only reason I started Debunking Atheists was because John was deleting everything I would say and was monitoring for quite some time. We have known each other for a couple of years now and he views me as his bitter enemy and I love him as a lost soul. He has been quite upset with me for some time now.

    @John, I do apologize John for raising your blood pressure with the stunt. It wasn't meant to be up all the time, and it wasn't. I was just testing the features of that option for when I reviewed the book. Will you remove any negative comments on the book? Are all those up now just the positive reviews and all the negative ones have been removed?

    BTW It was only my avatar (evolution exposed) saying if you want the counter to the viewpoints of the book go to my blog.

    After an hour after posting it, I reviewed the rules and it said that I couldn't promote a website so it was in violation, it was taken down immediately.

    I do look forward to reviewing the book and giving my opinion of it, at least my opinions can't be removed from my own blog. After all, I do enjoy my first amendment rights also.

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  10. I believed in the theory of evolution, not so much because I had examined the claims, but because it was what I was taught to be true. If you want to pass biology you fill in the little choice box that the teacher says should be filled in, right?

    No wonder this guy became a believer. He didn't want to examine claims, he wanted to be told what was true. Religion is perfect for him.

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  11. Dan,
    You just try to wave off this despicable act as, "I believe, it was harmless."

    That goes to show you that you and your ilk can break the rules and sin against others and just wave it off as "harmless."

    I am glad this happened because it exposes you for what you are.

    You always have to be right even when you are totally wrong.

    Most people I know would not even respond to you on your blog because it is very easy to see how disengenuous you are.

    /d

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  12. Froggie,

    Do you even know what disingenuous means?

    If I was disingenuous I would say no that wasn't me, who did that?

    Your accusations are unwarranted.

    I was wrong and it was removed, no harm.

    I just should say, go leap into a pond but instead I will say thanks for your welcomed input.

    Now that was an example of being disingenuous.

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  13. Zilch,

    "He didn't want to examine claims, he wanted to be told what was true. Religion is perfect for him."

    Ouch Zilch, that was unfair don't you think? Teachers hold the position of authority and agreed they abuse that position often. We will fail the tests if we answer any differently then the evolution model.

    It wasn't until I was out of high school to even know there was an alternative hypothesis. I was taught that evolution was the Biblical truth. I had no reason to doubt teachers until I was out of that environment. Public Schools create sheep anyways, it is designed to be that way. They pump out mindless drones to be obedient to the system. Dare I say the universities also. It's a different world/system these days then when the Universities we formed.

    I view it's the Christians who buck the current system and the secular people are the sheep that just follow along what is being told to them, a false worldview to lead them to certain destruction.

    Come on put-em-up, put-em-up. lol

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  14. Dan said...

    Will you remove any negative comments on the book? Are all those up now just the positive reviews and all the negative ones have been removed?

    Actually, there are negative reviews on John's book posted at Amazon. Do you have any evidence to back up this claim? For example, a link to a cache that shows a negative interview that has been deleted from Amazon.

    Dan also said...

    BTW It was only my avatar (evolution exposed) saying if you want the counter to the viewpoints of the book go to my blog.

    However, in REALITY, the caption said...

    Are you sure you want to go down the path John chose? Eternity is a very long time, you do understand. Your choice, the religion of atheism or follow the Creator of all called Christianity.

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  15. Dan,

    Why did you lie about only posting a link to your blog?

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  16. Mjarsulic,

    Yes, that is exactly what I said. I was looking for what I wrote but couldn't find it. Thanks for writing it down for a future use, strange but thanks. I was just trying to go off memory.

    I went to read the rules when John got so angry at what I did. When read the rules of not promoting a website I remembered that my avatar has Debunking Atheists on it. At that time I remember thinking that I might be in violation.

    You sure have a very strong opinion about this one subject but never ever once commented on anything else I have written here at this blog, and looking back, this is the very first time you are commenting. I guess my question now is, Why?

    Please no soap box speech about how upsetting it is about us evil Christians. What I am getting at is that you appear to be disingenuous yourself by not having a history of commenting here ever and then blast at me with accusatory fever calling me a liar and such. Who are you?

    "Why did you lie about only posting a link to your blog?"

    I didn't, I just couldn't remember what I wrote. Sorry you feel that I did lie, maybe you won't believe I did anymore. But actually I am not here to please or be accountable to you, now am I?

    Silver lining in this: Negative press is still press, none the less. Any press at all gets the name out there. So anyone in Public Relations would tell you that this is a positive for John to get the word out about his book. It was also good for John to stir things up here to get people talking about his book. I am sure John owes you a thanks for perpetuating the conversation. This is why the publisher, brilliantly, thought it would be a good idea to give me a copy for review and they will be sending me a free copy soon, you know for the press (+ / -). Not to mention the aching anticipation that people will have, that I will be reviewing the book. It's all good for John. Are you sure you want to go down the path John chose? Eternity is a very long time, you do understand. Your choice, the religion of atheism or follow the Creator of all, called Christianity. Stay tuned!

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  17. Dan finished with:
    "Stay tuned!"

    I will. I hope your review will be fair.

    It is important to note, Dan, you did say the following:

    BTW It was only my avatar (evolution exposed) saying if you want the counter to the viewpoints of the book go to my blog. [Emphasis mine]

    Whether you mean it to come out like this or not (I don't think you did, personally), it is most certainly a lie, and a bad one too given the nature of your caption.

    Just pointing this out.

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  18. Quasar,

    "BTW It was only my avatar"

    Yea I did say "only" but I truly meant it as "harmless" not literal.

    "it is most certainly a lie"

    Coming from you that hurt, but OK fine I will own up to that part as being misleading if it was taken as you pointed out.

    It takes only a moment to become a Christian but the making of a Saint is the work of a lifetime. It takes time for the fruit to mature. I sure have a long way to go to be Christ like.

    Thanks for pointing that out Quasar. I feel humbled.

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  19. Dan said: BTW It was only my avatar.

    AND

    Yea I did say "only" but I truly meant it as "harmless" not literal.

    Dan, thanks for pulling it down and for the apology. Accepted.

    I also want to say I accept your explanation and that I do not think you lied.

    I look forward to your review of my book as agreed when you received it. I think you will agree with others that it's probably better than other similar books on the market.

    And I didn't remember that we may have been at odds before, but now I do. I think I remember you to have been of a Bible thumper. That annoyed me since you weren't dealing with our arguments. Of that you may now understand, since we don't believe the Bible. Answering as you did, if I remember correctly, was like quoting from the Koran , Homer's Iliad, or the Book of Mormon to us.

    Cheers.

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  20. Dan,
    "Do you even know what disingenuous means?"

    I would think that someone who constantly preaches about being ethical and blah, blah, would know better than to pull the sophomoric stunt you did, thus I must consider you to be disengenuous. You want respect and honesty yet you often forego it in your own writings.

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  21. Dan,

    I got the caption from John's post on DC. One of the reasons I made a big deal about this is because I think it really sucks when people go on sites like Amazon and review or comment on books they have not read. Both Christians and atheists are guilty of this at times. I have not problem with you reading John's book and offering a critique of his arguments, but I feel that threatening people with eternal torture is immature.

    I'm hoping you give John's book a fair review. I still have yet to read it, but should be starting sometime tomorrow afternoon. Maybe we can find a topic from it that we can discuss.

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  22. Mjarsulic,

    "I got the caption from John's post on DC."

    Oops I see that now thanks and I apologize for any snarky remark about it.

    "but I feel that threatening people with eternal torture is immature."

    And here I view it as caring and loving someone. How would you feel if someone just let a person drown in a pool? Would you feel that also to be an example of being immature?

    "I'm hoping you give John's book a fair review."

    I wouldn't have it any other way.

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  23. Dan,

    That's a crap analogy. We have no evidence that Hell exists. Threatening people with by appealing to eternal torture is about as mature as telling a child there's a monster in his closet.

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  24. How would you feel if someone just let a person drown in a pool? Would you feel that also to be an example of being immature?

    Hmmm... Let's see:

    [Christian]
    Hey, that guy's drowning!

    [Non-Christian bystander]
    Ummm, no, he's not. He appears to be relaxing comfortably with his family.

    [Christian]
    No, really -- he's in grave danger; he's going to die!

    [Non-Christian bystander]
    Well, that's true, eventually -- we all die -- but this park is in a safe neighborhood, and unless there's some freak accident involving the Frisbee, he looks pretty safe.

    [Christian]
    No, you just can't see the danger -- he's going to die! He's drowning right now!

    [Non-Christian bystander]
    Dude, what are you on? He's playing Frisbee with his kids, and judging by the cooler and mini-grill, I'd say he's going to have a picnic with them in due time. There's no water, there's no obvious danger, there's no reason for him to fear -- with the possible exception being if you were to approach him in your present state.

    [Christian]
    It's so obvious! You just have to accept the truth that I'm telling you, without evidence! Look, there's more about it in this book!

    [Non-Christian bystander]
    Ummm. Have you never heard of fiction? Let me see that thing.

    [flips through the book]
    Let's see -- that's wrong... that's wrong... What's that about..? That could mean anything... and that's just ridiculous...

    [hands the book back]
    Look, pal, you're reading some weird shit there, and while I'm sure it's a great read, and perhaps it holds some deeper meaning to you, but everything I saw in that brief glance was wrong, bullshit, or heinous. If the rest of the book is anything like that sample, you need to find some different books to read...

    [Christian]
    But I only read books like this one, or books recommended by people who agree with what this book says.

    [Non-Christian bystander]
    Really? You can't claim knowledge of a subject without exploring opposing viewpoints, and to get back to the subject, look around. Where's the water, where's the danger?

    [Christian]
    If something opposes what it says in this book, then that something is evil, and in danger of drowning in the water that you can't see but it's there because it says so in this book and I believe it.

    [Non-Christian bystander]
    Are you sure you're not on anything? Because if you're not, perhaps you should be...

    [Christian]
    Don't you want a life-jacket? Here -- it's one-size-fits-all.

    [Hands NCB something]

    [Non-Christian bystander]
    Ummm. Are you pretending again? Are we playing "make-believe"? You aren't holding anything, and like I said -- there is no water.

    [Christian]
    Just because you can't see it doesn't mean I'm wrong! Think about it; if an invisible dragon were standing behind your friend, ready to eat him, wouldn't you tell him about it?

    [Non-Christian bystander]
    You're insane.

    [Christian]
    Follow me! You don't have the map, and you won't be able to stay afloat without the life-jacket!

    [Non-Christian bystander]
    Bat-shit insane. Leave me alone or I'll call the police.

    ------------------

    Yeah. If the pool is imaginary, then it's immature. If the immature "hero" persists in his delusion, the prudent person would seek professional help on his behalf.

    What's the joke?

    If one person hears voices in his head, we call him insane. If a whole bunch of people hear voices in their heads, we call it religion.

    I think we'd be far better off if we treated these people as individuals...

    --
    Stan


    P.S. -- it's random, so I would expect that a sufficient sampling would produce such a result, but the word verification letters for me this time spell "maggie". Heh.

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  25. Dan wrote:
    "Yea I did say "only" but I truly meant it as "harmless" not literal."

    Oh. Ouch.

    Now it's my turn to apologise. I didn't realise: I just read it as a literal. In the context you were using it, it was not a lie.

    Sorry Dan: it was a misunderstanding. Thanks for clearing that up.

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  26. Stan wrote:
    "it's random, so I would expect that a sufficient sampling would produce such a result, but the word verification letters for me this time spell "maggie". Heh"

    I've gotton "Petbny" before, and someone on another blog got "Latin".

    Todays is: Upang!

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  27. stan- lol!

    Ouch Zilch, that was unfair don't you think? Teachers hold the position of authority and agreed they abuse that position often. We will fail the tests if we answer any differently then the evolution model.

    True enough, Dan. Teachers often do abuse authority, and we often must accept what someone tells us based on trust, rightly or wrongly. This is true of science too: for instance, I accept the existence of Pluto's satellite, Charon, even though I have never seen it, because I trust the scientists who tell me it exists.

    But there is a difference between this trust in what science says and what religion says: theoretically, I could examine the claims for the existence of Charon myself, by looking at the photos and observational data. No such possibility exists for religion: either you believe what the Book says, or you don't.

    Unfortunately, it seems that many schools don't stress the possibility of checking out scientific data oneself: a friend of mine, a high school physics teacher, bemoaned the fact that the new study plan has the students watching experiments on a computer, and not doing them themselves. How can this be a good thing?

    I was lucky enough to have had some very good science teachers, and to have spent a lot of time in labs and looking through telescopes. Perhaps this is why I am an atheist.

    By the way, what do you call someone who critically examines their belief in God? An atheist.

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  28.      Yes, Zilch, I tend to be of the mind that if you haven't tested it, you don't know it. So, for example, most people don't know the Earth is round(ish). They only accept it on authority. For many people, it qualifies as a sacred belief. It wouldn't matter to them if there were no way to test it. They have learned an answer and they are done. This is something I don't like to see in anything. Just as a principle I don't like it. But when people try to push religions (like christianity) on that concept, and through fear no less, it infuriates me.

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