October 7, 2008

Response to Froggie

Froggie,

Thanks for the melodramatically false post you made, it was quite comical.

No, Poe's Law isn't applicable here but lets get all the facts straight:

First false statement you melodramatically made: "What's worse is that she suffers from Lupus and has had tumors that recently came back."

No my wife doesn't have Lupus my mother did, like Quasar pointed out, but you have yet to correct that part of the blog so you are continually perpetuating a lie. For dramatic purposes?

2nd misrepresentation: "and has had tumors that recently came back."

You know this for a fact? I had no idea you were a doctor with superman's abilities to see through things like skin and bones.

My words were: "the symptoms returned again recently. We feared it was coming back right after our 4th child, she was getting pretty shook up about it. This time we decided to do a 40 day fast and keep in prayer to stop the growth and hope for a miracle from God.

Well, it appears we got our wish and the tumor disappeared with no more signs during the fast (headaches, blurred vision, sinus troubles ...)"

I will admit I may have scared you pretty little head slightly Froggie. I kept calling it a tumor but it actually is a Cyst. 'Rathke's Cleft Cyst' to be technically accurate. It is a balloon of puss growing on the pituitary. It is Non-Cancerous! Some inexperienced doctors might just clip the pituitary off to eliminate it but the Pioneer, Dr. Kelly, uses very high tech camera equipment and goes through the sinus cavity to remove and drain the Cyst without disturbing the Pituitary. He is a very blessed and talented man that I wouldn't know what to do without him. I thank God for putting him so close to us. We were very healthy and three years after moving to California she came down with this problem. You have to understand that before that in Colorado Springs and Texas we owed our own company and to pay for all that out of our own pocket would of bankrupted us. But this Company hear of Patty's tallent and gave us an offer we couldn't refuse. To me, it wasn't coincidental that we happen to be extremely close the the very best Doctor in the entire United States to operate on her.

If you didn't know the pituitary controls the woman's cycles and Patty didn't have any for two years (since Nov, 2006) so it did worry us that we wouldn't have any more children then our three already. The symptoms started getting worse when Patty was breastfeeding our third child (pituitary controls that also) so we went on a long year journey of new baby #3, many hospitals, meetings, and surgeries, at UCLA Hospital at the time.

Immediately after the third surgery Patty got pregnant after her very first (very light) cycle. It was a miracal!

Dr. Kelly was promoted and is now Director of the John Wayne Cancer Institute at St. John's in Santa Monica.

We were all astounded and truly felt we were blessed with a miricle. We were so happy it was over and received a new miricle baby at the end of it. Incidentally all my kids have my personality, but this 4th one is all for Patty, looks and acts just like her. He is the boy version of Patty who was incidentally, an only child. Just another one of lifes coincidences that could be just written off if you're not looking for these things.

The Skeptical Sorcerer said "Whatever he is doing, if he doesn't stop I at least hope he doesn't make his kids join in."

Funny you said this but my 7 year old wanted to join in but I said I would allow it for only one day. So she did but was sad because she was very hungry at bedtime. She was very cute and understood how difficult it was and was a true helper during the 36 days we were fasting. She witnesses more then most adults I know. That little girl at age 5 wanted to and did memorize the Ten Commandments she is my little angel and God has great things in store for her, I just know it. If you need help memorizing go to smartyface.com

It appears the only sane person at this group here is not an atheists at all, named 'LivingAsOneFreed'.

You guys should rename yourselves the "Hyper uber-judgmental unfair atheists" to be more accurate. The problem is you need to make sure that the beam is out of your eye first before you judge so you can see clearly, (Matthew 7:3) that is why it's OK for Christians to Judge Atheists.

And to be perfectly open, here is part of my response on my blog to Froggie:

Froggie said: "This is totally [irresponsible] and life threatening.

A perfectly healthy person might get away with that some, but you could kill your wife with this irrational stuff."


So I said: I appreciate your concern but we are watching very closely.

Please don't think for one moment we are not watching carefully and monitoring and listening to our body's, otherwise you might be the one that is irrational. Remember we made promises to God to go 40 days and fell short by 4 days to call it off to err to caution. If we were "irresponsible" or "irrational" we would of done the full 40 no matter what. We broke our word with God for her safety.

In an attempt to ease your mind, if that is even possible, we are monitoring with, so far, more then 10 MRI's of her brain and have the very best doctor and team in the entire United States to help 24/7. We are no dummies and/or fools here.

Hopefully your lack of confidence and your prejudice has been thwarted. You were completely wrong and irrational yourself.

Proverbs 28:5 "Open rebuke is better than love carefully concealed."

Now are we as radical and criminal as Froggie eluded/accused us to be? If not, what other things can he be wrong about also?

If yes, fine I can live with that, because if the ones that agree with Froggie are the ones that don't believe in God either then the Bible predicted accurately that I would be hated and persecuted by such people and another reason to trust God. Thanks for strengthing my faith.

53 comments:

  1. Hey Dan, quick fix: it's spelt Miracle.

    MWAHAHAH!! Grammer Gorilla!

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  2. Rats!

    But in my defense I did spell it right "hope for a miracle from God" so it was just a mistype.

    MWAHAHAH!!

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  3. OK, Dan.

    I appreciate the explanation and all, but it is still irresponsible and dangeroous to fast until you are puking green bile, along with all the other symptoms you mentioned.

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  4. Froggie,

    "but it is still irresponsible and {dangerous} to fast until you are puking green bile,"

    I agree that is why we stopped early.

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  5. I glossed lightly over your response Dan, so if I've missed something, I apologize in advance.

    I'm glad to better understand your wife's situation, and that she seems to be doing well.

    With that said, try to imagine being in my shoes, and reading of some person who appears to me trying to solve very real problems in ways that defy common sense. We (the people who've generally criticized you in the past) don't have the same faith as you do, and (imho) we certainly don't imagine ourselves believing in anything as strongly as you do.

    I say this to point out that most of the people I know (possibly *all* of them) would view your fast as dangerous and ill-advised. Given the preponderance of evidence I have, isn't it reasonable that Raytractors here would feel the same way?

    I wont label you as bat-shit insane. That's simply disrespectful (again imho) and would be dishonest on my part; I understand people needing to think outside the box when it comes to stuff (illnesses, UFOs, etc) science can't easily explain.

    But I still find it a bit loopy :p

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  6. Whateverman,

    That is fair. I perfectly understand that people would react the way they did. I promote and strive for truth where ever that may lead us.

    For reasons explainable to me, but not to others, all symptoms went away and she feels great. Was it due to the fast or did God intervene? I just don't know at this moment but it will be one of the questions I will ask God when I am in front of Him.

    I still think we underestimate the power of prayer and fasting and this situation proved that. That was the real point that I wanted to make.

    Try it to regain your faith if you are serious about such a thing. If you fast and pray in honestly seeking Him. I know God would reveal Himself to you in a real way that even you couldn't argue against. What do you have to lose? Oh that's right your soul. Please seriously think about it and do it.

    From the day that a person breaks God's Law of Sin and Death, God's greatest desire is that they will come to repentance. And so we then go along thinking that we're just living life, but the reality is, that our life's experiences are filled with acts of God trying to bring us back into a relationship with Himself.

    We are all slightly loopy, agree? Choosing hell over Heaven is crazy loopy to me. Take care of yourself.

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  7. I know God would reveal Himself to you in a real way that even you couldn't argue against.

    It's has already happened, and I'm quite serious about that. Despite this, however, there was no evidence of him (her? it?) being the God of the Bible.

    Thus, deist. And cautious enough in my belief that I wont argue for his existence with other people (unless asked to)

    Back to the topic at hand, regardless of what happens as a result of this episode, I'm still glad to know your wife is better.

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  8. Incidentally, you've said you're not a Christian (iirc). Have you checked out the two links recently posted at a Raytractor's friend's blog?

    Here are the links. Try them out - I'm curious as to what the results will be:

    Here

    And here

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  9. Come on Whateverman you are smarter then that.

    Those sites are bogus.

    If you are keeping score my Plausibility Quotient = 0.3

    But look at the reasoning behind it. They have no clue whatsoever.

    "The metaphysical engineers have found it hard to model this God in a universe like our own."

    Our universe is a fallen creation because of man's defiance to God. It was perfect with no death so as you can see they website are skewed towards a worldview other then Christianity.

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  10. To be fair, in order for me to be smarter than I appear (in this thread), I'd have to accept the validity of your beliefs. To wit: that the nature of God - and thus morality and heaven/hell and sin, etc - are described accurately by the Bible.

    But I obviously don't believe in those things. Or at least, having read my opinions for a few months you probably understand that I very generally don't agree with you about them.

    I'm really not as smart as you've suggested (and thanks for that, btw).

    But to be fair, I should point out that the sites aren't necessarily "skewed" - they're simply using Logic to assess the various answers we provide the test(s). Logic is something that exists independent of the the question of God's existence - it's simply a tool by which we can try to ascertain right vs wrong, consistent or inconsistent, etc.

    IOW: those sites aren't trying to claim they have a handle on this whole God debate. They're simply giving answers based on one limited set of tools we have available to us; and thus aren't trying to tell you whether you're right or wrong.

    I expected that your God would be logically inconsistent - but seeing as this is the nature of your belief (re. that standards of logic are inadequate to describe the nature of Him), I don't think the inconsistency should mean anything to you :)

    That's a roundabout way of saying I was only curious about the test results - I wasn't expecting that you should think/feel differently after having taken them.

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  11. Dan,

    You said,
    "I still think we underestimate the power of prayer and fasting and this situation proved that."

    That is absurd and you know full well that didn't prove anything.

    I could never figure out why fundamentalist Christians have no concept of the word "proof."

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  12. This isn't so much a comment on this post, as it is a comment on the title of your blog. My question is - how does one debunk a group of people?

    Of course, presumably you're speaking of debunking atheism...

    But then, how does one debunk a lack of belief? There's no claim being made.

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  13. I can guarantee you that there are plenty of Christians that would agree that starving your wife with a cyst until she is puking green bile is irresponsible.

    No amount of your vague circumlocutions are going to change the fact that the practice is dangerous.

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  14. Krazy,
    Well said. The rest of this comment will contain everything that atheists believe about God.





















    ...

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  15. krazykeegan "Of course, presumably you're speaking of debunking atheism"

    You are assuming a great deal. I am not here to debunk atheism (that would of been the name, if that were the case) but to debunk the individual called atheist. I am trying to show the individual the flaws in the logic they use while trying to show them the truth about God.

    See you have been just debunked in your way of thinking.

    Slam debunked, lol.

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  16. Deleted my last comment, as Dan had already answered.

    It's true, however, that you can't debunk a person; and you can't debunk a lack of belief.

    Dan, is it fair to say that you disagree with this definition of atheism?

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  17. Whateverman,

    "Dan, is it fair to say that you disagree with this definition of atheism?"

    Not at all. I am perfectly aware of the definition and that is why D.A. is towards the individual instead of the belief system.

    Mainly because we must face God as individuals on Judgement Day and not as a group of people. When you die you will die alone and you will not have any group of people on the Internet or atheism groups to save you or defend for you. So I am focusing on the individual to help try to reason, one by one, with people.

    Whateverman, when I am talking to you, am I standing on some soap box talking to a group or am I talking to you as an individual? Hopefully we are on a more personal level (that was my goal) then just me preaching to the mass. For some reason I feel that can make a difference in that type of forum.

    Secretly, I will admit that I love a good friendly fight of wit. I am a fan of wit. But honestly I am just trying to seek and save the lost as instructed by God's word. Hopefully God is using me as a tool for that purpose, or God considers me a tool. One or the other.

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  18. "You are assuming a great deal. I am not here to debunk atheism (that would of been the name, if that were the case) but to debunk the individual called atheist. I am trying to show the individual the flaws in the logic they use while trying to show them the truth about God."

    Sorry, I didn't mean to misrepresent your position. I misunderstood it.

    But I'm still not sure how a person can be 'debunked'. Are you trying to debunk the claim that atheists exist? Because (if this is the case) I can say, with some certainty, that I do, in fact, exist.

    Keep in mind that, as per the definition I'm using, an atheist is simply someone who doesn't answer, "Yes" to the question, "Does a god exist?" Any other answer, I think, as per definition of the word, would make one an atheist. And there are quite a few of them.

    An atheist may be unable to defend his position rationally, and there may be in fact no good reason to be an atheist. However, even if this is so, there are still people who don't believe in a god.

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  19. Whateverman said: "Dan, is it fair to say that you disagree with this definition of atheism?"


    Dan responded: Not at all. I am perfectly aware of the definition and that is why D.A. is towards the individual instead of the belief system.

    Mainly because we must face God as individuals on Judgement Day and not as a group of people. When you die you will die alone and you will not have any group of people on the Internet or atheism groups to save you or defend for you. So I am focusing on the individual to help try to reason, one by one, with people.


    Fair enough

    Whateverman, when I am talking to you, am I standing on some soap box talking to a group or am I talking to you as an individual?

    To be honest, you do both :) But it's your blog, so I don't count that as being a negative. You get to do / say mostly whatever you want to do / say here.

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  20. God considers me a tool.

    Wow! I seem to agree with god on some points...

    :)

    (I couldn't resist)

    --
    Stan

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  21. Dan wrote:
    "Our universe is a fallen creation because of man's defiance to God."

    Might as well say, "He beats me only when I've been bad." You've got beaten-wife syndrome with respect to God, Dan.

    God created Adam, Eve, the Snake, Temptation, Weakness and Evil. God threw them all together, forcing them to interact. And when the outcome which should have been expected occurs, God punishes everyone and everything for all time. To not see that as a monstrous, bullying injustice is to be insane.

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  22. God created Adam, Eve, the Snake, Temptation, Weakness and Evil. God threw them all together, forcing them to interact. And when the outcome which should have been expected occurs, God punishes everyone and everything for all time. To not see that as a monstrous, bullying injustice is to be insane.

    Even less offensive (but perhaps more difficult to accept) would be that the story was a parable - not fact.

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  23. Dave W,

    "God created Adam, Eve, the Snake, Temptation, Weakness and Evil. God threw them all together, forcing them to interact...To not see that as a monstrous, bullying injustice is to be insane."

    What you claim is just not true. God created free will, you chose to do evil things (lying, stealing lusting, hatred). We chose to sin. I don't know about you but sin felt great to me when I wasn't saved. I lived for fornication.

    God is good and the Yang to that Yin is evil. "We can appreciate Gods goodness in the presence of evil" from What's the Purpose of Evil?

    We needed to see what evil was, I suppose, so we can see how bad evil is and strive for good. How can you properly see what is in the darkness until the light is turned on. If the light of God is a monstrous, bullying injustice and that I am insane then where is my rubber room.

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  24. Sorry, Dan, but God created Evil just like God created everything else. God created the Tree and the Fruit, God positioned them in the Garden, and God added the Snake. And the Snake didn't have Free Will.

    You're defending your God just like a beaten wife defends her man.

    We wouldn't need to "strive for good" if God had simply left Evil out of the universe. It was His choice, not yours or mine, and not Adam's or Eve's (or the Snake's), either.

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  25. Dave W,

    "We wouldn't need to "strive for good" if God had simply left Evil out of the universe."

    He did! We chose to do evil, to bring it in this universe, not God.

    When you drink and drive I bet you blame your Dad too.

    There was no death and no suffering before Satan and Adam's betrayal. The universe was perfect.

    Please read the "What's the Purpose of Evil?" post.

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  26. Dan wrote:
    "He did! We chose to do evil, to bring it in this universe, not God."

    No, Dan. God created humans with the capability to do evil. God created Satan with the capability to do evil (and no free will). The knowledge of good and evil existed separate from humans and Satan.

    If God had wanted to, He could have built a wall around the Tree, or made it to not bear Fruit, or He could have destroyed the Snake. To punish us because of how God set things up is nothing but cruelty.

    And your "What's the Purpose of Evil?" post is inane. How could God show us how good He is without us seeing evil in comparison? Who cares? That argument only demonstrates that God has a huge lack of self-respect and is so insecure in His goodness that He has to flaunt it.

    If God hadn't created evil, He wouldn't need to show us good, we would all be good.

    And yes, if my dad forced me to drink so much that I no longer knew right from wrong (the state Adam was in), and then pointed to his car keys and said, "Don't touch those," you're absolutely right I would blame him if I went for a drive. A further fault of your analogy is that it would only work if my dad invented both alcohol and automobiles, specifically bred me to be capable of drinking and driving, and if he were capable of punishing me forever for disobeying him.

    Damn straight I would blame my dad under such conditions. To not do so would be to blame myself for my father's choices (which I had no power to change), just like you are blaming yourself for choices that your God made (without so much as a "by your leave").

    I reject the acceptance of fault for things over which I had no control. If I had evidence that your God exists, Dan, I would have to reject the idea that sin is evil, because I would have to accept the idea that God created within us the capacity to sin, and thus God created sin itself.

    On the other hand, without God, I have to actually take responsibility for my choices, because no one and no thing specifically engineered in me a capacity for evil. In other words, there's no one else to blame but me for the things that I do.

    Atheism: more ethical than Christianity.

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  27. Dan:

         According to the story, your god created evil in the form of the tree and the snake. In fact, if one believes the story, it raises a question. How long did it take for the biblical god to decide the people needed some prodding (in the form of the snake)? You see, you can claim that man walked down the path of evil (or was coaxed or tricked.) But according to your story, it was your god who created that path in the first place. He did not leave out evil out of the universe. I will stand with Dave W. on this one.
         Incidentally, there is another question. How far would this god go to make sure that man fell into the trap?

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  28. Dave said "Atheism: more ethical than Christianity."

    Compelling argument and sound reasoning, good job. If you were in charge that would be true and right. But, unfortunately for you, you aren't in charge, God is. Because God is in charge he sets the rules no matter how unfair you believe them to be.

    I understand your reasoning and at this very second I can't, for the life of me, think of something that might help. I will have to pray about this one and see if I can think of a sound counter.

    Off the top of my head: You believe that since God gave you arms and hands, to pick up things, that if you pick up a gun and shoot a pregnant woman holding a baby (dramatic effect) that you blame God for that? OK I get your viewpoint.

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  29.      By the way, in regards to your original post, what you describe is not persecution. Also, while you might be prosecuted for starving someone, it would not be for worshipping Jesus. You seem to think that "it's for Jesus" should be a get-out-of-jail-free card. Still, if your wife (an adult) participated in a fast of her own free will, there was no crime. (If stupidity is to be deemed criminal, I can think of 535 people to serve as starting point.)

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  30. I guess for the record I should point out that she wanted to continue and I wanted to quit at even day 20. I would not stop though unless she did. I started to vomit the bile first then her the next day and we decided together to stop for that reason.

    Pvblivs,

    Just 535 people, huh. That sure is a conservative number. Oh, starting point, got it. You know that many atheists? har har

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  31. Dan:

         No, they're not atheists. But the number should be a good clue as to who they are. Incidentally (and as a further clue) some of the people have come and gone, but the location is a very good starting point.

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  32. Oooo I love riddles

    Hmm is it congress?

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  33. Compelling argument and sound reasoning, good job. If you were in charge that would be true and right. But, unfortunately for you, you aren't in charge, God is. Because God is in charge he sets the rules no matter how unfair you believe them to be.

    Headway!

    Dan, you have here tacitly admitted that your god is unjust. You clearly recognize the fact that god's alleged actions in the Genesis 2 account convict him both of criminal negligence and of conspiracy to commit eternal torture, and while you still cling to some false sense of loyalty (battered wife syndrome, as others have noted), you have nonetheless made progress toward the recognition that no, you are not damned from birth, and yes, you -- not some cosmic voyeur -- are responsible for your actions.

    Congratulations.

    --
    Stan

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  34. Dan wrote:
    "Because God is in charge he sets the rules no matter how unfair you believe them to be."

    Let's remind the Holocaust survivors that Hitler was in charge in Germany, so he set the rules no matter how unfair anyone believed them to be.

    Good grief, Dan, how much more of a toady for a totalitarian bully can you be?

    But the point I'm making is not simply that God's rules are unfair. Were that all that mattered, then I wouldn't care less what you think, Dan (after all, I don't think God exists). No, the point is that you are embracing and defending your own subjugation to a monstrous dictator, and as a compassionate human being, I would rather see you break free from the prison that you celebrate.

    "Off the top of my head: You believe that since God gave you arms and hands, to pick up things, that if you pick up a gun and shoot a pregnant woman holding a baby (dramatic effect) that you blame God for that? OK I get your viewpoint."

    No, that's an utterly sophomoric attempt at a caricature of my position.

    I think we can all agree that Stanley Tools should be held blameless if someone picked up one of their hammers and brained his mother with it. But for this analogy to be anywhere close to what I'm talking about, Stanley Tools would have had to invent not only the hammer, but the hammerer and the ability to hammer on heads.

    In other words, Dan, it appears that you're simply refusing to believe that because God created everything, it means that God created everything, including evil.

    If God hadn't created evil, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. We'd all be living perfect lives, blissfully unaware that murder is even an option.

    I don't blame God for creating the tools used to commit evil acts, I blame God for creating the evil acts themselves. The tools, after all, have plenty of non-evil uses.

    (If, of course, I actually blamed an imaginary being for anything. Really, the blame for your self-hatred, Dan, must lie with you.)

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  35. Besides all of the above, Dan, God even admits that He created evil, in Isaiah 45:7:

    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    Do we have to go through the whole free-will argument again? If God is omniscient and omnipotent, we are like characters in a novel or a film that has already been written. Although we may "say" that we have the freedom to decide for ourselves, and we may "think" we have that freedom, we are already printed, or in the can: God has already composed our scripts, and we have just as much freedom as, say, Leopold Bloom has to not help Stephan Dedalus, or Neo has to not fight the Matrix.

    No, if God is omniscient and omnipotent, then free will is an illusion, and we do exactly what God created us to do. Good and evil both come from God, unless He is not almighty and allknowing.

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  36. Dan:

         Yes, it's congress.

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  37. if God is omniscient and omnipotent, then free will is an illusion, and we do exactly what God created us to do. Good and evil both come from God, unless He is not almighty and allknowing.

    I think this is a good example of what scares me about Christianity (very generally). Of the people who make the most noise, then sepnd an awful lot of time talking about what God's like, what he wants, what he's done and will do, etc.

    And yet, if you point out the logical inconsistencies in what they're saying, without fail, then back right down to the baseline: it's what they believe, and logic/reason are incapable of changing their minds.

    If this really is their point - then I have nothing to say :) People are free to believe whatever they want, so long as it doesn't intrude on the lives of non-believers. But these people continue to try to describe God & Jesus AND REALITY in terms that make no sense whatsoever.

    If they really do believe what they say, and they shun logic/reason, then why do they attempt to make logical arguments to justify their beliefs?

    It's almost as if they don't have as much faith as they'd like us to believe. Maybe they're trying to convince themselves...

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  38. "No, the point is that you are embracing and defending your own subjugation to a monstrous dictator,"

    Now you are comparing Hitler to God?

    I think we can all agree that since God is the Creator of all things (even us) and that He alone will determine all of our fates on Judgement Day that we have a universe with a Father Dictatorship. I am fully fine with that because I think America alone has proved that even capitalism doesn't work left unchecked. That we cannot do the right thing on any constant basis. We cannot trust the people we vote to be in charge of the government and that mankind is inherently evil and liars.

    I cannot wait for the day when God is running this world properly and most of all, fairly. Evil will be crushed and eradicated forever. A dictatorship we will all benefit from.

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  39. I cannot wait for the day when God is running this world properly and most of all, fairly. Evil will be crushed and eradicated forever. A dictatorship we will all benefit from.

    I'm happy to say I have great faith that this will not come to pass.

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  40. And I hope your faith will change for all our sake. Otherwise we are doomed to a wretched life forever because if you believe that the super rich evil people will suddenly grow a conscience you are gravely mistaken. It would and will take an act of God.

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  41. Dan! Dan, are you listening to yourself?!

    You are effectively saying, "one day, the tyrant will take away all the bad things that he's created, and then everything will be peachy-keen!"

    It is absolutely clear that you, Dan, are a victim of Stockholm Syndrome. The exceptional thing is, of course, that your captor is imaginary. You defend him and celebrate him anyway.

    Yes, people can be stupid and evil and do all sorts of horrible things to one another. If God exists, none of that changes, you just get a promise of something better. Rather than try to do something to improve the situation here, among real people doing real things, you've given up, and just cling to a promise that other men have made to you.

    At least, that's the way it looks.

    The thing is, dictatorships come in all sorts of styles. There are harsh, brutal totalitarian regimes where a single wrong word can get one shot, and there are benevolent monarchies where the citizens almost all love the King and everyone prospers. Nobody here is arguing in favor of capitalism instead of God, and certainly nobody here is arguing in favor of U.S. politicking instead of God (those comparisons are simply bizarre).

    But politics and governments can be changed by the actions of mere mortals. God cannot be. You've given up, and appear to have decided that none of it can be changed, and so you'll cling to the system that provides you with the best-sounding platitudes.

    Because the God/Hitler comparison is apt. Read the Old Testament, count the number of people slaughtered or enslaved by your God's command. Heck, read the New Testament, in which your God's alleged justice is exemplified in part by floggings and threats.

    The Bible is inarguably the widest-read propaganda piece ever written. The fact that two billion people believe the propaganda doesn't change its status. The "Big Lie" did not originate with Hitler's regime.

    Come on, Dan. Listen to what you're saying. Read the Bible and look at what it says. Even if you're completely cynical about human beings and believe that there's nothing you can do to change the amount of evil in the world, that doesn't mean that you should believe that some magic man can do it for you.

    Is enslaving yourself really a solution to any problem, Dan?

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  42. Dan said: And I hope your faith will change for all our sake. Otherwise we are doomed to a wretched life forever because if you believe that the super rich evil people will suddenly grow a conscience you are gravely mistaken. It would and will take an act of God.

    Let's be fair:

    1) Changing my faith wont do a damned thing for humanity. It might have an impact on my family and friends, assuming the change impacts my behavior - but that's it.

    2) Carefully re-read our exchange here, and you'll see that I never suggested (not even a hint) that rich evil people will suddenly grow a conscience

    3) God has provided 2 millennia of evidence that he will (without hesitation) let us screw up, and be forced to clean up our own messes. The support for this idea is staggeringly vast.

    4) I don't mean this as an insult, but you'd be an awful parent. Just imagine what your kids would turn out like if they knew that Dad was going to swoop in and resolve of all their problems. Every bully, every money issue, every lapse in judgement - fixed.

    I'm sorry Dan, but it's simply not going to happen. Assuming God created us and cares for us, the very last thing he's going to do is appear - seperate those who were members of the right club from those who weren't - and then condemn/reward each eternally.

    It's not going to happen.

    Join humanity and help us solve the problems we've created. Be part of the solution, rather than waiting too see if your fringe beliefs are confirmed.

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  43. Whateverman,

    "I don't mean this as an insult, but you'd be an awful parent. Just imagine what your kids would turn out like if they knew that Dad was going to swoop in and resolve of all their problems."

    That's why I am a great patent, because I make my 2 year old cook his own eggs and do the dishes, no free ride here.

    As far as point 2) That was a point that I was making about the corrupt power players of this world. Things would never fix themselves without God intervening.

    "Join humanity and help us solve the problems we've created. Be part of the solution, rather than waiting too see if your fringe beliefs are confirmed."

    That was the point I made about rich evil people, they will never suddenly grow a conscience. The ones in charge will never give up the power and they are corrupt so no matter what you want to do to help humanity it will fail as long as the rich evil people in charge way at top have anything to say about it. That is why God will remove all of it and make them powerless.

    You can send all the money you want to Africa to feed the starving but the gorillas in charge is taking that money and buying weapons to kill more people. What a wonderful world we have.

    Matthew 10:39, Matthew 16:25, Mark 8:35, Luke 9:24 ,Luke 17:33, John 12:25

    I hate this world, we failed to do any good, we all deserve to have a good dictatorship, called God, to run things properly since we all failed to do it ourselves.

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  44. Dave W,

    You aren't the first to say "Dan, are a victim of Stockholm Syndrome."

    I remember using that term MYSELF so I am familiar with the term. If you remember THIS conversation. Stockholm is very similar to the Lucifer effect.

    "The thing is, dictatorships come in all sorts of styles."

    Come on don't just list the negative ones. My house has a good dictatorship. My children fully understand that I am in charge and are quite OK with it.

    "Listen to what you're saying. Read the Bible and look at what it says."

    Great advice, back at you.

    Please don't fall in line and be just another Lucifer effect victim. Stand against this corrupt society and Honor the One that can save this world. The name to call out is Jesus.

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  45. I hate this world, we failed to do any good

    Are you actually suggesting that Christians haven't done any good?

    Do you actually mean that good art and community service and soup kitchens and the Christian Children's Foundation and Doctors Without Borders - and dozens of other examples that I don't have time to write down.

    Are you suggesting that these things which have provided joy and enlightenment and shelter and love and food - none of them are any good?

    Or, perhaps, are you throwing the baby out with the bathwater? No one disagrees with the idea that humanity is capable of some very "unenlightened behavior" (heh). But you seem to be willing to ignore the good things that people do in order to justify the need for the destruction of our race.

    Because, if God were to swoop down and render his judgement, that's exactly what it would be: the destruction of our species. We wouldn't be around to be either good or bad - and we'd never have the capacity to learn to be better than our instincts tell us.

    Sorry Dan - hating this world is fairly evil, especially when you're willing to destroy (or sondemn to hell) all of the people who really did try to believe in the right stuff, but ended up belonging to the wrong club.

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  46. Whateverman,

    "Are you suggesting that these things which have provided joy and enlightenment and shelter and love and food - none of them are any good?"

    Luke 16:15

    No all the things you have listed are very good in my eyes. But I am not the judge here.

    "Sorry Dan - hating this world is fairly evil,..." I can live with that if you can admit so is everyone that breaks the Ten Commandments, true?

    Remember the Sheep analogy from Ray. (I love quoting him for you guys, sort of sadistic I know)

    "A little girl was once watching a sheep eat grass and thought how white it looked against the green background. But when it began to snow she thought, "That sheep now looks dirty against the white snow!" It was the same sheep, but with a different background. When we compare ourselves to man's standard we look pretty clean, but when we compare ourselves to the pure snow-white righteousness of God's standard—His Law, we can see ourselves in truth, that we are unclean in His sight. That Law is the holy standard by which humanity will be judged on Judgment Day."

    That was my point. I love the beautiful things of this world. Just looking into my kids eyes and I see all sorts of good. The real issue is that I know the end of the story and I guess I am anxious to get things going so the suffering ends. I know it isn't going to get better by any stretch of the imagination so I am in limbo.

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  47. Whateverman said: "Sorry Dan - hating this world is fairly evil,..."

    Dan responded: I can live with that if you can admit so is everyone that breaks the Ten Commandments, true?

    I can't admit that, no. It's easy to point out situations where the justification for breaking those commandments makes breaking them not-very-evil. Stealing food in war time when you need it to survive (as long as you're not preventing others from surviving) isn't evil.

    It's wrong, but understandable given the circumstances.

    I view the commandments as general rules, rather than as absolute determinants of right & wrong. Thus, I view breaking of them to be situationally right & wrong.

    --

    I can understand that sheep analogy. I don't necessarily like where Ray took it, but I don't think it's particularly objectionable or illogical (generally speaking).

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  48. Dan said: The real issue is that I know the end of the story and I guess I am anxious to get things going so the suffering ends. I know it isn't going to get better by any stretch of the imagination so I am in limbo.

    Why not try to end the suffering while you wait?

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  49. Whateverman,

    "Stealing food in war time when you need it to survive (as long as you're not preventing others from surviving) isn't evil."

    But you would still be a thief right? Yes it is still stealing no matter how you view it.

    "Why not try to end the suffering while you wait?"

    I do my best to. I even started a blog to help atheists understand, maybe you have herd of it. I don't know if this constitutes an attempt to end the suffering as much as perpetuating the suffering but we do what we can.

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  50. I wish I had the power to end the suffering

    Just look at what people are going through while me and you are comfortable in our rooms typing an enlightening conversation.

    Children of the black dust

    I am sickened as how we are treating each other. I sure thought we all were better then this but reading ALL of todays headlines I am beginning to understand God's viewpoint of us. We are wretched and need a Savior. ALL of us!

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  51. Dan wrote:
    "Come on don't just list the negative ones."

    I didn't. I listed the most-negative one and the most-positive one I could think of. The two ends of the continuum of dictatorships.

    "My house has a good dictatorship. My children fully understand that I am in charge and are quite OK with it."

    It's not for you to judge, Dan, how "good" your dictatorship is. Doing so just reeks of arrogance. And I'm sure Hitler had lots of positive things to say about his own regime, so we can't rely on the dictator to provide an honest assessment of his rule.

    "Great advice, back at you."

    Yet you're giving me every indication that you've stopped listening to me, or yourself, or anyone else.

    "Please don't fall in line and be just another Lucifer effect victim."

    I wouldn't consider standing up to a petty tyrant to be evil, Dan (if I believed that the tyrant exists).

    "Stand against this corrupt society and Honor the One that can save this world. The name to call out is Jesus."

    I've got my own reasons for working to change "this corrupt society," Dan. Calling on Jesus is not an act of rebellion against corruption, it's an act of capitulation and cowardice, little different from calling on Aquaman when you're just standing in a puddle.

    I deny that I am powerless, and work to effect change. You are busy insisting that you are powerless (except over your family!) and pray for help from the superbeing that created this mess in the first place.

    I am saddened that you will inevitably instill in your children your own sense of despair so great that they will aspire to nothing in this world. They may read the parable of the talents, but I doubt they (or you) will get its point.

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  52. Dan, one warning. Take that image down off of my book on Amazon now. You have no right to do that and I reported it to Amazon. I call on everyone to report it to Amazon. Take it down of you own volition or you will be banned from DC and I will summarily delete all of your comments.

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  53. Technically, I think that was 4 warnings, not 1 :)

    I was unaware of any image / intellectual property violations, and still am. Does anyone know what Mr. Loftus is referring to?

    ReplyDelete

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