Caught on Tape: Planned Parenthood Aids Pimp’s Underage Sex Ring
Contact: Colleen O'Boyle, media@liveaction.org, (323) 454-3304
NEW JERSEY – February 1, 2011– A Planned Parenthood manager in New Jersey coaches a man and a woman posing as sex traffickers how to secure secret abortions, STD testing, and contraception for their female underage sex slaves, and make their whole operation “look as legit as possible” in an undercover video released this morning.
Clinic manager Amy Woodruff, LPN, of Planned Parenthood Central New Jersey’s Perth Amboy center, warns the pimp and his prostitute to have their trafficked underage girls lie about their age to avoid mandatory reporting laws, promising, “even if they lie, just say, ‘Oh he's the same age as me, 15,’…it's just that mainly 14 and under we have to, doesn't matter if their partner's the same age, younger, whatever, 14 and under we have to report.” She says, “For the most part, we want as little information as possible.”...(Read More)
Laws broken or manipulated:
1. Sexual Abuse Cover up
2. Aiding and abetting statutory rape
3. Aiding and abetting minor prostitution
4. Aiding and abetting human trafficking
5. RICO/conspiracy/racketeering
Jill Stanek adds, "Woodruff coaches the pair on how to have the younger girls lie about their age. She gives them the name of a mill that is apparently schlockier than hers, Metropolitan Medical Associates, that will do abortions with fewer questions asked.
The most awful part of the video, IMO, is Woodruff’s cavalier business advice when asked what can the girls do during the 2 weeks after their abortion when they can’t have sex?
Woodruff: Yeah, um, waist up.
Pimp: Waist up?
Woodruff: Waist up, or just be that extra action walking by. Because then they’re at more risk for infection, and you don’t want to do that….
“Waist up”? That line will live in infamy."
I guess that is what the National Abortion and Reproductive Rights Action League (NARAL), Kermit Gosnell, Oprah Winfrey, and many Atheists here meant when they promote "choice", the choices to aid Pimps to traffic sex of the underage. Y'all should be ashamed of yourself for opening this Pandora's box of evil.
Maybe the new pro-life led Congress will finally investigate Planned Parenthood. I know we will not stop until they do.
"We are calling on Congress to immediately freeze all funding of Planned Parenthood. We request [demand] that the Department of Justice and FBI launch a full-scale investigation of Planned Parenthood and prosecute the aiding and abetting of human trafficking.
We are also calling on state authorities to immediately revoke the licenses of all Planned Parenthood clinics found covering up sex abuse." ~Lila Rose
Update 02/02/11: Apparently PP was aware of this tactic and, to cover themselves, filed a report to the FBI. In fact it appears that PP was tipped off by someone because of what was said back in December. So a cover up ensued.
""In December, Live Action announced that it was preparing to launch several major new investigations during 2011 and said it had received a $125,000 gift to finance the operations. It did not identify the source of that gift." ~WSJ
Only God knows who leaked the information to PP. I think the behavior of the managers were absolutely wrong, much as the same as ACORN, PP should be shut down. Its one thing to "go along" but to give these people "get around" instructions is absolutely unacceptable. Also, these employees were way to well versed in these "get arounds" to be a first time for them. Like the Police and Chris Hansen's "To Catch a Predator" these people posed to be someone to catch the responses from PP. Is that wrong? Time will tell, but I sure am hopeful. The fruit will show if it was guided by God. () These evil people at PP better not be working for PP anymore and arrested and be put on trial. But just saying there just needs to be a cleaning of the house at Planned Parenthood is like saying al-Qaeda just needs better management!We MUST expose the practices of this evil organization and its workers. They will probably settle out of court to avoid a trial. I have a better idea, close PP and stop their funding, you know, to be safe. I have even a better idea, if a program receives federal funding, Like ACORN, AIG, Goldman Sacs, and Planned Parenthood then when sued, or prosecuted, there CANNOT be a "settling" pr "plea" to avoid trial. Its not their money to "pay off" to avoid trial embarrassment anyway. Either way, they must be tried, so we have records of the publicly funded entities. Maybe that legislation will be the good fruit from all of this.
Hmmm...perhaps they've turned Catholic.
ReplyDeleteI guess that is what the National Abortion and Reproductive Rights Action League (NARAL), Kermit Gosnell, Oprah Winfrey, and many Atheists here meant when they promote "choice", the choices to aid Pimps to traffic sex of the underage. Y'all should be ashamed of yourself for opening this Pandora's box of evil.
ReplyDeleteExcept that choice entails an awareness of the options and the implications thereof, Dan. Or is choice, like free will and certain knowledge, another concept you find difficult to grasp?
Do you suppose Catholic parents chose to have their children subjected to abuse when they sent them off for a good Catholic education? I doubt it.
Also, consent to a specific action - eg: a woman's choice to have an abortion - does not, in and of itself, imply consent to any other action, eg: the clinic where the abortion was obtained aiding and abetting child rape.
ReplyDeleteTo claim otherwise is kind of like claiming that consent to kissing means consent to sex - and I'm pretty sure that argument has been used to aquit many a rapist.
Dan, You are always do quick to assume the info you hear that supports you beliefs/opinions is correct. I too caught wind of this video late last night. Fortunately I did not stop there, but will continue to look into it further, to make sure all the info I gather is correct.
ReplyDeleteThe first thing that made me suspicious was that the video does not support the claim that Planned Parenthood (PPH) supported a sex ring. The only thing I saw in the video was a highly edited series of comments of one employee of the PPH clinic. Though she did make those comments, I too would have done my best to represent what PPH does, no matter who I'm speaking to, and later report any illegal activity I am made aware of to the proper authorities later. It would not be my job to do any more. Being an uncomfortable situation I'm not surprised she was as friendly to the man as possible, and tried to treat him like she would anyone else.
My preliminary investigation of this did show that this employee did report the Sex Trafficking to the FBI, and requested an investigation. So, PPH and the employee did as they should have, and the employee had clearly explain to the man in the video.
Another detail that I'd also like to mention is that one of the people involved in the creation of the highly edited video was James O'Keefe, a convicted criminal that repeatedly lied about his heavily edited ACORN videos.
Here is a link for you reading pleasure Dan.
http://mediamatters.org/blog/201102010014
Dan, even if the the claims about this event were true, It would only show that an employee of PPH did not act on this information appropriately. That PPH or the organization in a whole would not be responsible for anymore than a bad choice in staff.
Its not like some religious organization that preach dogma that brings harm and death to children. I am friends with a doctor who has written several papers on the mortality rate of children in these very large religious sects in America that choose religious dogma over proper medical care for their children.
Also, there is alway the killing of women and children we have often pointed out to you that your god did/ordered with the Canaanites.
You never disappoint me Dan!
~Atomic Chimp
Even if Dan's source and interpretation were accurate, it's still a stretch to claim that there is some kind of causal link between provision of abortion and child sex trafficking. This seems to be typical of the dishonest scare tactics employed by anti-choice extremists.
ReplyDeleteIt would be kind of like me claiming that there's a causal link between Catholicism and child rape, but even I know that's crap. Sure, I think the celibacy rule for clergy can result in some weirdness, just as repressing any urge can lead to it being expressed in destructive ways; and certainly the church hierarchy is culpable for its efforts to cover up the situation and relocate known offenders. But to imply that Catholicism in and of itself causes child rape would be ridiculous.
But then, we know Dan has no qualms about being ridiculous.
DD,
ReplyDelete>>Do you suppose Catholic parents chose to have their children subjected to abuse when they sent them off for a good Catholic education? I doubt it.
If it was done today (with the full knowledge of the RCC and the priests in the news), absolutely yes!! My point is that if Planned Parenthood exists after this...well then...God help us all.
DD,
ReplyDelete>>This seems to be typical of the dishonest scare tactics employed by anti-choice extremists.
Now its you who is sounding more like the RCC, you know with all those blown out allegations about children being raped and all. Shame on you DD, shame on you.
>>But to imply that Catholicism in and of itself causes child rape would be ridiculous.
You do understand the RCC did cover up, protect, aided and abetted those evil pedophile priests. They relocated them instead of turned them over for incarceration. They are criminal in their behavior, and so is PP. Shame on you DD, my respect for you is now waning.
Dan, thanks for ignoring my post.
ReplyDeleteDormantDragon, excellent point! Dan also forgets that they also provide many other services to the community. PPH 'receives federal funding to provide family planning services, annual exams, cancer screenings, contraception visits and testing and treatments for sexually transmitted infections'.
I also enjoy how he seems to appreciate groups who is not interested in making changes through intelligent arguments. Instead they have said they were on a mission use smear champaign and stirring up controversy to take down Planned Parenthood.
When Dan and his hooligans cannot sum up evidence to support thier agenda and convince the public of the issue, making those people or institutions involved look bad for other reason than the point you want changed is how they operate.
Dan, There have been several studies that show public record illustrating magnitude of children each year that died from not receiving proper medical care due to the practice of Christian dogma by many different denominations in America alone. I am friends with one of the doctors involved in one of those studies and it tears my heart out when helpless children die when the most basic medical attention would have saved them.
Why do I never see people like you Dan put any effort in trying to save children who could easily be?
~Atomic Chimp
Atomic Chimp,
ReplyDeleteI never just ignore your posts, but I will answer them on my schedule not yours. :7)
I must say that I have to agree with you, as much as I hate to.
This link says it all.
What you said also made me reflect on the Dover trial. Lying for gain will get you a loosing result. No matter how much I would love for PP to be shut down, this is not the way to do it. So with a big gulp, I thank you for that information. You got me.
Dan, I've said it before, it takes a lot to respond like that. Though I try my best to be as brutally honest when I'm in the same position, I cannot say I can't be stubborn at times.
ReplyDeleteDan, keep in mind that the story isn't over. I'm still waiting to see if more develops. At minimum the Planned Parenthood needs to take action on those in their employment that are not acting appropriately, per policy, & might be misrepresent them too.
Hey, if it counts for anything Dan, my girlfriend is very close to you on the opinion of abortion. Though we disagree, we too often have discussions about it that can be a learn opportunity for both of us.
One more thing Dan, my comments & feelings about the Christian denominations who withhold care from children, have nothing to do with how I feel about Christians who do not practice those dogmas.
Thanks again for you honesty Dan.
~Atomic Chimp
Update 02/02/11: Apparently PP was aware of this tactic and, to cover themselves, filed a report to the FBI. In fact it appears that PP was tipped off by someone because of what was said back in December. So a cover up ensued.
ReplyDelete""In December, Live Action announced that it was preparing to launch several major new investigations during 2011 and said it had received a $125,000 gift to finance the operations. It did not identify the source of that gift." ~WSJ
Maybe the FBI leaked it? Only God knows. I think the behavior of the managers were absolutely wrong, much as the same as ACORN, PP should be shut down. Its one thing to "go along" but to give these people "get around" instructions is absolutely unacceptable. Also, these employees were way to well versed in these "get arounds" to be a first time for them. But we can learn from the Dover trial about all of this. Lying for gain will get you a loosing result. No matter how much I would love for PP to be shut down, this method might have backfired although they exposed them for what they are. Like the Police and Chris Hansen's "To Catch a Predator" these people posed to be someone to catch the responses from PP. Is that wrong? Time will tell, but I sure am hopeful. The fruit will show if it was guided by God. (Matthew 7:17-19) These evil people at PP better not be working for PP anymore and arrested and be put on trial. For one, to expose the practices of this evil organization and its workers. They will probably settle to avoid a trial. I have a better idea, close PP and stop their funding, you know, to be safe. I have even a better idea, if a program receives federal funding, Like ACORN, AIG, Goldman Sacs, and Planned Parenthood then when sued, or prosecuted, there CANNOT be a "settling" to avoid trial. Its not their money to "pay off" to avoid trial embarrassment anyway. Either way, they must be tried so we have records of the publicly funded entities. Maybe that legislation will be the good fruit from all of this.
Planned Parenthood do the right thing so Dan assumes its some kind of conspiracy?
ReplyDeleteJC,
ReplyDelete>>Planned Parenthood do the right thing so Dan assumes its some kind of conspiracy?
Well, to be consistent, if a bad tree cannot bear good fruit then yes it must be for some other reason then "doing the right thing" There are evil forces at work here, after all.
Dan, as I said before, just like the 'To catch a predator' program, it only shows that one individuals actions are questionable. Just because one single employee is caught responding like this, does not reflect the polices or normal practices of the organization.
ReplyDeleteSince there were many different attempt to do this hidden camera approach to many PPH, I'd expect a lot more videos of the same thing happening with many other employees if this was normal practice. I find there being only 1 highly edited video so not very convincing of anything other than PPH having chosen poorly with the hiring of this employee.
Using your logic Dan I should be able to make the same blanket statement of other organizations based on one or a few peoples actions. Which brings us back to the Christian denominations I spoke of earlier. Though most would find the overpowering evidence of child mortality caused by these Christian practices only incriminating for those denominations. If I use your twisted/blanket logic, I should judge all of the Christian denominations in America for the deaths and thus have Christianity eliminated in America.
Dan, to borrow a description from Frank Zappa, you are trying to cure a headache through decapitation.
So quick to judge all based on one persons error Dan and we're not even sure if some of the dialog might be being taken out of context sue to James O'Keefe's heavy editing. I would suspect that editing was to manipulate the impression you get from what was said. Since they are refusing to provide the full footage and we already know about how O'keefe had done the same with the Acorn and repeatedly lied about the videos, I see no reason to trust anything being presented much less try to use it to take down an entire organization.
Its appears to me to be an attempt to use controversy and sensationalism to do politics instead of evidence and intelligent arguments. If this is how you like to operate Dan, it very telling.
~Atomic Chimp
You do understand the RCC did cover up, protect, aided and abetted those evil pedophile priests. They relocated them instead of turned them over for incarceration. They are criminal in their behavior, and so is PP.
ReplyDeleteSo, in your mind, the defining feature of both is that they directly cause child rape. Gotcha.
And...yes, thank you, I'm quite aware of the facts of the case. That doesn't mean Catholicism causes child rape. That was the point. The organisation is corrupt, not the faith itself (although I don't share it anymore, since like your beliefs, it is based on fabrication and obfuscation).
Did you know that the New South Wales police force here in Australia was riddled with corruption, even up to the highest levels, back in the 1980s and '90s? Curiously enough, we still appear to have a police force. By your hysterical reasoning, we ought to have got rid of them by now.
Shame on you DD, my respect for you is now waning.
Careful, Dan - given the dubious nature of your worldview, I might just take this as a compliment.
DormantDragon ,
ReplyDelete>>Did you know that the New South Wales police force here in Australia was riddled with corruption, even up to the highest levels, back in the 1980s and '90s? Curiously enough, we still appear to have a police force. By your hysterical reasoning, we ought to have got rid of them by now.
You're comparing apples to oranges here. I am certain that you are not saying that RCC is a vital and necessary organization for a society, like a police force. If so, your analogy crumbles apart. If not, your analogy crumbles apart. Given the dubious nature of your worldview...
>>Careful, Dan - given the dubious nature of your worldview, I might just take this as a compliment.
I was getting disturbed by what was being said, but I apologize for saying that. Good come back though.
JC,
ReplyDelete>>Planned Parenthood do the right thing so Dan assumes its some kind of conspiracy?
Well, to be consistent, if a bad tree cannot bear good fruit then yes it must be for some other reason then "doing the right thing" There are evil forces at work here, after all.
There's a whole lot of unsupported assumptions in that response.
JC,
ReplyDelete>>There's a whole lot of unsupported assumptions in that response.
If God is right, how can He not be, and bad tree's cannot bear good fruit, then there is no way that PP is doing anything that is right, no matter how its being spun or perceived. I know many PR firms that can make horrible things done sound great in the end. Atomic Chimp almost did it on me even. With some knowledge and research, my reasoning was restored. PP has a good PR firm probably, that is all.
I still demand that all this to goes to trial. If it doesn't we are spineless. Which we appear to be.
If you want proof of that just read this headline:
"TSA: New X-ray Scanners Discover American Citizens Do Not Have Spines" ~Republic Magazine
God help us!!
Dan I tried to do nothing on you. I just suggested that you stop your research as soon as you find something that confirms the opinion you already had.
ReplyDeleteWell Dan seeing as to the fact that religion (Including Christianity) has proven to have been a bad tree producing lost of bad fruit through out past and recent history, it obviously cannot bear good fruit at all. So, off with their heads.
Dan unless you or you hooligans can produce more evidence than a highly edited video of one employee not handling a situation per normal policy, you got nothing other than a bad employee. You can't just shout out you conspiticy assumption about PR cpmapies Dan, you need to show supporting evidence or you have nothing. Claims made without support can be dismissed without support.
PPH provides many more services to the public than abortion. These services range form but are limited to provide family planning services, annual exams, cancer screenings, contraception visits and testing and treatments for sexually transmitted infections. So Dan, PPH provides a vital service to the public that many rely on.
Still no comment about the countless child and infant deaths every year caused by Christian dogma? Dan these are children made to suffer over an extended period of time and eventually dying. Children that not one person will deny is a living breathing human individuals. How can you ignore this fact and just look the other way, yet your running in circles blabbing about PPH who does provide a service to the public and want to shut them down because you don't agree with the laws concerning abortion? Obviously you don't care about children if doing something to stop their deaths might shed a poor light on your belief system.
Again Dan, using your logic, religion should be shutdown too. It has an ongoing history killing innocent people and children because of its dogma that goes back to it earliest days. Its book you say in inerrant preaches about killing such people and can and has inspired people to do so.
Dan, you never cease to amaze me. I hope you can sleep well knowing children are suffering right now in the name of Christianity.
~Atomic Chimp
You're comparing apples to oranges here. I am certain that you are not saying that RCC is a vital and necessary organization for a society, like a police force. If so, your analogy crumbles apart. If not, your analogy crumbles apart. Given the dubious nature of your worldview...
ReplyDeleteOf course I'm not saying that the Catholic church is a vital organisation for society. But that wasn't my point.
The fact is that, given the opportunity, unscrupulous people will exploit their position for personal gain (whether that's monetary gain or the gratification of personal desires). Their actions are not caused by the organisation of which they are a part. As it happens, most Catholics, in my experience, are essentially good, caring people who wouldn't dream of harming children. I certainly don't share their religious beliefs, and often think they'd be happier without them, but neither do I doubt their motivations.
Your argument was that Planned Parenthood should be shut down because of unscrupulous employees of the organisation. Your argument was entirely ideological, because the fact is that you would like to see an end to abortion and contraception, and have merely used this incident as ammunition.
However, in modern Western society, Planned Parenthood (and similar organisations such as the FPA in Australia) do provide a necessary service. It's all very well to leave procreation to chance...sorry, "in god's hands", but frankly, most thinking people prefer to be informed of their options when it comes to deciding when and whether to have children.
As an aside, I have to say I'm always struck by the irony of protestant evangelicals condemning the Catholic church. I mean, if it makes you feel superior, go ahead and diss the pomp and ceremony and the appeal to magic (transubstantiation, blessing of trinkets and so on) but at the core, Catholics believe exactly the same irrational fairytale that you do, Dan.
Atomic Chimp.
ReplyDelete>>Dan unless you or you hooligans can produce more evidence than a highly edited video of one employee not handling a situation per normal policy, you got nothing other than a bad employee.
Not if its nationwide. Be careful of what you ask for you just may get it. There are a plethora of video's being released at intervals. Its nationwide, and company wide!!
>>So Dan, PPH provides a vital service to the public that many rely on.
Yea, even to posing pimps. Here is the second installment video to back that up. They are aiding them, your denial is irrelevant. That seems to be a pattern for the Atheists.
Silly Atheists, denial does not equate to truth.
DD,
ReplyDelete>>The fact is that, given the opportunity, unscrupulous people will exploit their position for personal gain (whether that's monetary gain or the gratification of personal desires).
Like everyone at Planned Parenthood, I agree.
>>Your argument was that Planned Parenthood should be shut down because of unscrupulous employees of the organisation.
Not so, I believe it should be shut down because these practices are company wide and nation wide. Much the same as the RCC or ACORN, the evidence shows that its company wide and therefore its bad fruit from a bad tree (the Company)
Its like you are trying to blame just the 19 individuals that blew up the towers while saying it was not al-Qaeda's fault for a couple of bad apples. Bad apples comes from bad trees.
DD,
ReplyDelete>>most thinking people prefer to be informed of their options when it comes to deciding when and whether to have children.
Then close your legs! Any 'thinking person' knows this. You just advocate recklessness. Live with that.
Dan said,"Be careful of what you ask for you just may get it. There are a plethora of video's being released at intervals. Its nationwide, and company wide!!"
ReplyDeleteand if the evidence is produced to show that PPH as an organization is up to no good, then I agree something has to be done. I never claimed it couldn't be true just that one video from a person with a shady past in video production doesn't convince me. Unlike you, I',m not a push over whether its for or against an opinion of mine.
>>So Dan, PPH provides a vital service to the public that many rely on.
" That seems to be a pattern for the Atheists. Silly Atheists, denial does not equate to truth."
Dan, you're so quick to judge others. I never claimed It couldn't be true, I just pointed out that you didn't have enough to back up you claim yet. We'll see, but even if it is true, it would only mean a cleaning of the house at PPH. If you feel differently about it, than I stand by my previous statement on Christianity using you twisted logic.
~Atomic Chimp
Atomic Chimp,
ReplyDelete>>We'll see, but even if it is true, it would only mean a cleaning of the house at PPH.
So al-Qaeda just needs better management? Riiiiiight!!!
Silly Atheist
Dan I quickly reviewed the second video and it really doesn't impress me. The guy was very vague and the woman he was speaking to seemed to be just giving general information she would give anyone who came in. I think I would be a little confused as to what he was babbling about concerning him and the women if its out of character to see in the clinic, and provide the same answers to questions and information I would to anyone who came.
ReplyDeleteI will review the video again when I can pay more attention but so far the videos seem to amount to not much at all. For an organization with over 850 clinics in America, I find it comedic that you think these 2 videos are enough to make the broad claims you do concerning PPH.
As I mentioned before Dan, even if these women provided assistance outside of policy of PPH, or any that is legally possible, all that would mean is there are a few people who work for them hat need to be dealt with. It in no way incriminates PPh in a whole.
Dan, I've see far more incriminating evidence/news about Christians and Christian organizations concerning the death of children each year. Many of those I've seen people involved sent to prison for after. The difference between you and me Dan is I do not hold an entire denomination or Christianity to blame and expect it to be shutdown by th egovernemnt. I just hope we can put laws in place to prevent the parents from continuing neglecting to provide proper health care to their children. they can practice their dogma, as long as proper health care is also included.
I may not be a fan of organized religion, but I do not try to force its complete removal because of particular peoples actions.
We'll see if my opinon changes though with another view and any future info shared.
~Atomic Chimp
Atomic,
ReplyDeleteYou have no avenue to even account for things that are "proper" or "wrong"
I would say get out of my worldview, but without it you would lost. Repentance is your next step, if you are staying.
and Dan retreats into nonsense...
ReplyDeleteWho is Norman? Have we met? Is this "nonsense" that you are claiming, a matter of personal opinion? Or is "nonsense" objectively wrong?
ReplyDeleteDan, your argument for "your world view" fails no matter which thread you post it on. You need to actually show support for your claim, not just continue to make the same assertions over and over.
ReplyDeleteDan, on my way home from work, which is a long commute, I was thinking of all the horrible things done by Christians & Christian leaders, denominations, and entire organizations JUST in my lifetime. In many cases legal action was taken and fine, jail-time and other damages were brought against those involved. Some of these things were done in the name of Christianity others were done by Christians or Christians leaders and then they were protected by the church. Though not all I was thinking of had to do with children, the list of those that did and lead to torture, molestation, and death, is much longer than those that didn't.
Dan, if two videos of employees of PPH have you running with your guns a blazing to have PPH shutdown, when you're done, you should be ready to do the same to Christianity. Even if you're 100% correct about PPH, helping a pimp has got nothing on torture and killing of children.
Before we proceed though, Please explain to me in detail the how and why of the PPH situation. For the sake of argument, I will allow us to assume both of those videos do show PPH employees acting against policy, and the legal boundaries of their organization. So explain what you think should be done and the details that support your plan of action.
~Atomic Chimp
This is video shows that the audio of the original video has been doctored.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5nL2j2B9W0
Dustin,
ReplyDeleteHere was my comment:
I sure hope its not your claim that the person working for PP did NOT say the things on the audio?? So yea, to shrink things up a bit they took things out, but provided the full audio on their website. The full audio is still there dude!!! They provided what was said in context and in detail. (no matter what the video shows) You are painting a picture that they [live action] lied or doctored the AUDIO which is misleading and lying. Liar!!!!!
Dan Said, ,"So al-Qaeda just needs better management? Riiiiiight!!!
ReplyDeleteThats the most incredibly stupid comparison I've heard form you in a while. This is usually what begins to happen when you have nothing more to say than ridiculous comments instead of actually responding to the actual points. Well, you really don't respond any time but usually you give the impression you think you have a valid response.
Dan, my girlfriend who is anti-abortion disagrees with your opinion on the matter and thinks your point is not very well thought out.
~Atomic Chimp
Then close your legs! Any 'thinking person' knows this. You just advocate recklessness. Live with that.
ReplyDeleteI never picked you for the headmaster of a Catholic girls' school, Dan.
Seriously, your comment is telling in a number of ways, though.
Firstly, you give away that you think sexual purity is primarily the woman's responsibility.
Secondly, you reveal a naively idealistic belief that if we just limit people's options, we can make them behave. That might work in a totalitarian system, but it won't change the inherent inclinations of humans. You won't create a world in which all men only ever think about sex when they want to make a baby, and where all women have the power and inclination to refuse or forego sex when they're not feeling clucky. Not to mention the fact that there's plenty more to sexual interaction than just intercourse, but I won't go into detail on a public blog.
My 'recklessness' over the past 15 years has resulted in precisely zero unwanted pregnancies. Maybe I have been lucky, but I have also taken responsible steps to ensure that this was the case. It is, quite frankly, more reckless of you to consider denying people information on the available options and leaving them to flounder in ignorance and fear.
Dan called me a liar!! Omgah, I'm going to laugh about this for days. Thanks Dan.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteIf there's one thing predictable about Dan (as others have pointed out here and in other threads), it's that he can be guaranteed to ignore questions that point out the gaping holes in his world view.
ReplyDeleteAnd he does so while claiming ownership of an objective morality.
I just hope there never comes a day when his kids dismiss him as sincerely as I do.
EDIT: changed the last paragraph. I don't really laugh at Dan any more.
I agree with DormantDragon. I agree not because I just think he's right but the research has shown the same. Places where abstinence only was the only sex education showed a rise in teen pregnancy. Some of those area have the highest rate of teen pregnancy.
ReplyDeleteArea in America where an well rounded sex education, including information on forms of birth control have shown the lowest rate of teen pregnancy.
So Dan, shielding people from something you o not like would only make the issue of teen pregnancy, unwanted children, and abortion rise not drop.
Dan, restricting people from access of information and resources because it does sit well with you is no different than how I see some middle-eastern theocracy do the same to their people & especially woman. Its just the lite version of it but has the same damaging results.
~Atomic Chimp
Dan:
ReplyDelete"Norman" is an alter ego of Stormbringer. He wishes to use it as an "every non-christian." So I address him by the name when he uses his admitted accounts. (Since you asked, I thought I'd tell you.)
Oh, I remember you saying that biblical slavery was like employment -- although I can't identify the thread anymore. I did a post on my own blog to comment on the notion.
Pvblivs,
ReplyDeleteYou mean Stormkid really has a Norman account?
He thinks this is you, and you think this account is him?
Stormboy has ranting about Norman and Normans so when they banned anonymous posting, I started an account with that name.
Stormboy is a racist moron.
Did you see the thread where he responded to Palestinian children dying with "Oh boo hoo!"? Fuck that guy.
Dan, I'm really happy to hear you're coming around.
ReplyDeleteDan:
"[...]the person working for PP did NOT say the things on the audio[.] they took things out[...]no matter what the video shows[...]they [live action] lied or doctored the AUDIO which is misleading and lying."
Sorry, to shrink things up, I had to take a few things out.
ReplyDeleteNorman:
ReplyDelete"You mean Stormkid really has a Norman account?"
Well, you are posting using it.
"Stormboy has ranting about Norman and Normans so when they banned anonymous posting, I started an account with that name."
And proceeded to act precisely as you described your caricature. Either that's a pretty big coincidence or you and he are the same person. Let's ask Dan. Dan: Do you believe it's a coincidence?
Atomic (x),
ReplyDelete>>Area in America where an well rounded sex education, including information on forms of birth control have shown the lowest rate of teen pregnancy.
I see that you conveniently left out the "And the highest rate of teen sexual diseases" part.
>>So Dan, shielding people from something you o not like would only make the issue of teen pregnancy, unwanted children, and abortion rise not drop.
You are completely ridicules now. You sound like the people that want to legalize robbing banks in my pot rant. If abortions were illegal, abortions would decrease.
>>... is no different than how I see some middle-eastern theocracy do the same to their people & especially woman. Its just the lite version of it but has the same damaging results.
Just understand that you are talking to someone, an advocate and a believer in Christian Reconstructionism, that believes in Theonomic Ethics.
A drunkard and rebellious child would think twice about getting stoned if he knows there is a strong possibility of being stoned.
Henracious,
ReplyDelete>>Sorry, to shrink things up, I had to take a few things out.
Funny as that is, it has nothing to do with the conversation. This is about quote mining, like you just did, verses giving the full audio to show the audio, in context.
Pretty please with sugar on top show where Live Action quote mined the audio.
I am guessing we will just hear crickets.
Pvb,
ReplyDelete>>Dan: Do you believe it's a coincidence?
I don't believe in coincidences, but I have no idea who these people are.
Pvblivs: Is it wrong to pose as someone, to get truth? If so, how do you account for right and wrong within your worldview?
I will say that I think the crew of Chris Hansen and "To Catch a Predator", and Live Action, is doing the right thing.
>>I see that you conveniently left out the "And the highest rate of teen sexual diseases" part.<<
ReplyDeleteWhat rubbish!
If people are using condoms then the rate of deseases decrease.
Dan:
ReplyDeleteNorman is not trying to get truth. He is posing as "the hateful atheist" so that, as "Stormbringer," he can quote himself and say "see how hateful atheists are?" The question of whether it is moral to deceive in an effort to expose a deeper truth is immaterial to the situation.
Norman/PBS/JC,
ReplyDeleteMust you bring your dysfunctional data entry problem to Dan?
Really.
Dan- in case you are wondering what this means. PBS/pvs had this problem see...every time I would say "God says" or "this is right"...He would say "No, that's not the way it is...it's left.."
etc. As if I should take his word over Holy Scripture.
You know what he does...well maybe not...he seems to behave a little more for you...do you sedate him?
Anyway- since PBS then told me that his profession is ''data entry''- I proceeded to tell him how to, hmm mmm, do his JOB! (In a most obnoxious and comical fashion.)
Blessings!
http://queenqueequeg.blogspot.com/2010/12/2kinds-of-kings.html
>>Pretty please with sugar on top show where Live Action quote mined the audio.
ReplyDeleteI am guessing we will just hear crickets.
I'm assuming you watched the video Dustin posted, as you responded to it, though I'm coming to the realization that you often respond without actually considering what's put before you.
In the video it is very clear that they have inserted dialogue from another section in response to questions not actually being asked to the person at the time of filming. They overlay sections of audio over video that does not actually reflect this audio.
Now, there's this thing you learn about when you study journalism called "backgrounding". What you do is, you present the view you want everyone to read in the first two-three paragraphs of an article - in this example, they included audio mismatched with the video, answers to questions other than the one edited into the asking place.
Then, on their website, they include the "unedited" footage in its entirety. Because it's so long, however, most people will simply watch the shorter, punchier video and make their conclusion.
So, for example, if I described a conversation I had with a certain apologist Christian - let's call him Stan - and immediately told my friend that I had absolutely creamed you with my combined use of rapier wit and unshakeable logic - the chances that this friend is going to actually look this site up and see all of my spelling errors is rather low. The fact of the matter is that backgrounding is used in order to spin an event. We often give convenient information before we give pertinent information.
That and I honestly do doubt that the questions being asked in the video are the ones being asked in the situations depicted, even in the "unedited" long form. Especially since a lot of the responses don't match up right, and even more especially since PP called the cops on these two. A lot of these "candid camera" videos are really just bogus.
Can't fault you for believing it, though. This stuff is intended to be very persuasive. Someone who already has prejudices against PP will immediately see that short video and consider their worldview confirmed, not really going any deeper than necessary.
ed. though I should definitely mention I have no evidence to support this notion at this time. We'll see what comes up soon enough.
ReplyDeleteAh, yes, Rhomphaia said the biblical (what "god" says) of data entry is to eat a cake made with half a box of laxatives. I suspect she considers me "not well behaved" because I respond to her in kind.
ReplyDeleteRhomphaia (Sword) said...
ReplyDeleteAnyway- since PBS then told me that his profession is ''data entry''- I proceeded to tell him how to, hmm mmm, do his JOB! (In a most obnoxious and comical fashion.)
I did notice your singular failure to deal with Pvbs questions but it was more pathetic than comical that you then resorted to simply talking shit.
dead freddie,
ReplyDeleteI gave him his precious 'evidence' elsewhere.
I explained to him that God had used the Hebrews/Israel, to punish the inhabitants of Canaan for their idol worship, specifically 'passing their children through the fire'.
He wanted "evidence" as to why God ordering the destruction of those people didn't fairly and squarely make God evil.
Punishment isn't evil. It's just.
Rhomphaia (Sword) said...
ReplyDeletedead freddie,
I gave him his precious 'evidence' elsewhere.
I explained to him that God had used the Hebrews/Israel, to punish the inhabitants of Canaan for their idol worship, specifically 'passing their children through the fire'.
He wanted "evidence" as to why God ordering the destruction of those people didn't fairly and squarely make God evil.
Punishment isn't evil. It's just.
So let's get this straight: God had the babies and children killed because their parents were killing them?
Do you even bother to think before you type?
A god who truly valued life would have at least tried to find a way to spare the young innocents instead of just killing them also. After all, that is the reason that their culture itself deserved extinction, right?
Otherwise, how is your god better?
Now, back to Lila, not Lisa, Rose:
ReplyDeleteAn atheist site has the goods on her.
Let me quote them. You, Dan, can even go to the Atheist Experience site and make your case there if you want:
Recently, Lila Rose, a rising star in the (sexist wisecrack coming) right-wing bimbo brigade behind Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann, made a ludicrous attempt to swiftboat Planned Parenthood, an organization that provides a plethora of invaluable health assistance to women everywhere, but which the right chooses to characterize exclusively as Dachau for Babies. Rose's stunt was butt-stupid, even for a Republican. Like her BFF, convicted criminal James "Doctored ACORN Videos" O'Keefe, Rose tried to punk PP with some video doctoring of her own. Her ingenious plan must be read to be believed.
Here's some more info on Lila Rose.
Reynold's wrap,
ReplyDeleteGod would wipe out entire groups of people for the sins of those people.
If you understood your sin (and mine and the world's) then you might could grasp this notion.
You see- by one man, sin entered the world. All are plagued with it now.
Just as a bird is pre-determined to be a bird....and a dog a dog. A dog won't be born a bird, neither a bird a dog.....all men are born sinners.
Well- when these groups of people committed these sins- the whole group was guilty.
In the OT, they were told early on that the sins of the fathers would be 'visited' on the sons....later this issue was 'cleared' so to speak.... but you see- sin is 'passed down'...it goes deeper than DNA.
Got brown eyes like your mother?
You got sin from her too...and her mother before her...and her mother before her...... all the way back to Eve.
But yes, to answer your question, I did think before I TYPED...and I thought someone would give me an opportunity to tell them that they are a sinner in need of a savior.
Call on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ- and thou shalt be saved.
Hey, Rhomphaia,
ReplyDeleteI was quite interested in this notion you put forward.
Punishment isn't evil. It's just.
How is punishment justice?
While you're answering that one, what version of justice do you intend to invoke? What cultural definition? Which philosophy originated this concept of justice?
ReplyDeleteRhomphaia (Sword) said...
ReplyDeletedead freddie,
I gave him his precious 'evidence' elsewhere.
I explained to him that God had used the Hebrews/Israel, to punish the inhabitants of Canaan for their idol worship, specifically 'passing their children through the fire'.
And that's 'evidence' that genocide doesn't make God evil is it? No wonder Pyb kept asking for actual evidence as that's just a pile of crap. As Reynold quite rightly points out where's the justification for slaughtering children in order to 'punish' people who are slaughtering children? And what had the animals done wrong?
He wanted "evidence" as to why God ordering the destruction of those people didn't fairly and squarely make God evil.
And you failed to give it too him. Care to try?
Punishment isn't evil. It's just.
Genocide isn't punishment, it's evil and what God ordered done to the Canaanites was genocide.
It's hardly surprising that Christian's cannot see that though. They spend so much time trying to show that the evil perpetrated by their God is 'morally justifiable' that they can no longer distinguish between good and evil.
Rhomphaia (Sword) said...
ReplyDeleteReynold's wrap,
Wow, like I've never heard that before.
God would wipe out entire groups of people for the sins of those people.
If so, why not kill adam and eve and start over and keep going until they get it right?
If you understood your sin (and mine and the world's) then you might could grasp this notion.
Why doesn't your god do such things today? Grasp that.
You see- by one man, sin entered the world. All are plagued with it now.
Hence my question above. Why not do his "cleansing" right off the bat and kill those who brought "sin" into the world instead of waiting and waiting for it to get worse, then killing a bunch of kids, and still having that problem?
Just as a bird is pre-determined to be a bird....and a dog a dog. A dog won't be born a bird, neither a bird a dog.....all men are born sinners.
Well- when these groups of people committed these sins- the whole group was guilty.
So what? Why doesn't your god have every man woman and child killed today then? Remember, in your mythology, we're all equally "guilty". In your god's eyes, one sin is as bad as another so the "sinner" goes to the same place: hell.
Why didn't your god wipe adam and eve out and start over? Instead, he lets the "infection" spread and then tries and fails to cleanse the world (global flood anyone?)
In the OT, they were told early on that the sins of the fathers would be 'visited' on the sons....later this issue was 'cleared' so to speak.... but you see- sin is 'passed down'...it goes deeper than DNA.
Then the issue was not "cleared" was it? People still "sin", even after accepting christ.
Got brown eyes like your mother?
You got sin from her too...and her mother before her...and her mother before her...... all the way back to Eve.
But yes, to answer your question, I did think before I TYPED...and I thought someone would give me an opportunity to tell them that they are a sinner in need of a savior.
Oh for fuck's sake...like anyone in the western hemisphere hasn't bloody heard that spiel over and over and fucking over again? You must be a poe...no one could be that stupid.
Call on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ- and thou shalt be saved.
Been there, done that. Sorry.
Reynold- you do need some wrap for that mouth! And some soap!
ReplyDeleteLike I said sweet hearts, if you could understand sin....
Justice- hmm-
Dear son takes a cookie from the cookie jar before supper when he does not have permission. Dear son then does not get cookies for three days! Justice served.
These people murdered, horrifically, their very own children. And all sorts of other perverted sins. Eye for eye, life for life.
There are similar examples in society today, but if I named them...then you'd call me more names... but if you think- you will figure them out.
Jer 8:3 And death shall be chosen rather than life by all the residue of them that remain of this evil family, which remain in all the places whither I have driven them, saith the LORD of hosts.
ReplyDeleteJer 8:4 Moreover thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD; Shall they fall, and not arise? shall he turn away, and not return?
Jer 8:5 Why then is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding? they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return.
Jer 8:6 I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle.
Jer 8:7 Yea, the stork in the heaven knoweth her appointed times; and the turtle and the crane and the swallow observe the time of their coming; but my people know not the judgment of the LORD.
Jer 8:8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.
Jer 8:9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them?
Jer 8:10 Therefore will I give their wives unto others, and their fields to them that shall inherit them: for every one from the least even unto the greatest is given to covetousness, from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.
Jer 8:11 For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
Jer 8:12 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore shall they fall among them that fall: in the time of their visitation they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.
Jer 8:13 I will surely consume them, saith the LORD: there shall be no grapes on the vine, nor figs on the fig tree, and the leaf shall fade; and the things that I have given them shall pass away from them.
Jer 8:14 Why do we sit still? assemble yourselves, and let us enter into the defenced cities, and let us be silent there: for the LORD our God hath put us to silence, and given us water of gall to drink, because we have sinned against the LORD.
Jer 8:15 We looked for peace, but no good came; and for a time of health, and behold trouble!
**********
out of context-but
....this text shows that quick death is sometimes better
**********
He who hath an ear, let him hear...
These people murdered, horrifically, their very own children.
ReplyDeleteSo your god ordered the entire race to be murdered including the children?
How can this make sense to you?
It makes sense because God did it. It would be horrific if the protagonist were human.
ReplyDeleteHaven't you guessed Dan's worldview? Morality is relative:
Whatever man (ha!) does is flawed.
Whatever God does is perfect.
The actions being done do not matter.
Rhomphaia (Sword) said...
ReplyDeleteReynold- you do need some wrap for that mouth! And some soap!
Go whine somewhere else. I'm not interested in faux-outrage from some idiot who sees no problem with god killing kids yet goes on to kill those same kids anyway because their parents were killing them.
Like I said sweet hearts, if you could understand sin....
I do. I'm waiting for you to understand moral consistency.
Justice- hmm-
Dear son takes a cookie from the cookie jar before supper when he does not have permission. Dear son then does not get cookies for three days! Justice served.
Sure, ok.
These people murdered, horrifically, their very own children. And all sorts of other perverted sins. Eye for eye, life for life.
Except, you moron...you've left out the fact that their kids and babies were fucking killed by "god"'s command too.
Hello?! Why, if killing their children is so awful, did "god" then order their children to be killed also?
There are similar examples in society today, but if I named them...then you'd call me more names... but if you think- you will figure them out.
Look who's talking about thinking! Besides, in our justive system we (get this!) we do NOT kill the children of the parents for the crimes the parents commit.
Instead of whining about my "name-calling" why don't you try thinking instead.
I'm still waiting for you to figure out that killing the children of a people because they were killing their children is self-defeating and morally inconsistent.
Whateverman has the gist of it in his latest comment, I believe.
ReplyDeleteYou guys REALLY have a double standard.....
ReplyDeleteYou just can't understand God- who made humans and the Rule Book for them...and why He'd order the death of an entire group of people ...but you yourselves would support ABORTION. (That IS the killing of babies!)
For what reasons? Convenience.
Hypocrisy.
The fact, Rhomphala, is that abortion is righteous when God does it.
ReplyDeleteIn other words, it's not always wrong - and that's moral relativity.
So, careful where you sling that H word around :)
Rhomphaia, Amen!
ReplyDeleteWem,
>>In other words, it's not always wrong - and that's moral relativity.
What utter garbage. Do you have the power to bring children to HEAVEN? If not you are not on the same PLANE as God. You cannot murder babies, God can bring babies home in Heaven. You are pathetic. Repent!
You're comparing miscarriage to chopping babies to pieces, crushing their heads, and sucking their brains out?
ReplyDeleteWow!
Your god is more brutal than my God.
I'll stick with mine.
My God can close a womb...yours can pry one open and slaughter the innocent...and call it good, for NO REASON.
Sorry. I think the H word is due here, again. :O)
Killing a baby is killing a baby, Rhomphala. One method is not better than another.
ReplyDeleteRemember, according to your worldview, an angry thought is equivalent to murder; there are no gradients of sin/evil...
That's right. It's hypocritical to label abortion bad in one situation and good in another when claiming your morality is objective and unchanging
Well, you know, God is God.
ReplyDeleteHe isn't controlled by our rules.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
"One method is not better than another."
What a statement.
And I suppose you would prefer
vigilantism to the law?
Hangings on the spot as opposed to a trial by jury?
You dodged every point I made.
ReplyDeleteIf killing is unjust in one situation but just in another, "Thou shall not kill" isn't objective morality. It's relative. God can abort a baby and it's righteous/holy, but we can't because abortion is baaaaad.
Your morality is relative, Rhomphala. It's time that you understood this.
Me dodge?
ReplyDeleteYou dodge WEM.
Listen, let's roll the story this way.
Ever buy a new car? Did you ask an old car how to run the new car?
What about a go-cart? Did you ask the go-cart how to run the new car?
The go-cart's rules of operation don't apply to the new car. No turn signals, no mirrors, no fuel injection, no anti-lock brakes, no overdrive, ...you can't even figure out this stuff from the older car! (Don't older cars have carburetors instead of fuel injection?)
You expect me to take another human's rules over God's?
No way Little Drummer Boy! I'm going to the Maker of the machine- and He has different rules than you do.
He's ABSOLUTELY the best and only source, for the best operation instructions of my vehicle (and all others as well, since He made them too)....you're kinda relative dear.
What if I told you to play your drums with a guitar pick? Dried spaghetti noodles? No no no- the best way to play them is with a strand of hair! ...You better go ask the maker of those drums...and stop taking my advice. My opinion on how to play the drums is certainly relative.
Dan's right.
There's a difference between cold-blooded murder and the Lord taking someone (usually peacefully) to heaven.
Wem,
ReplyDelete>>If killing is unjust in one situation but just in another, "Thou shall not kill" isn't objective morality.
You are taking advantage of a mistranslation. In Exodus 20:13 the "kill" is ratsach (Strong's H7523) defined as to murder, assassinate. In Matthew 5:21 "kill" is phoneuō (Strong's G5407) 1. to kill, slay, murder 2. to commit murder
Is it morally relative to assassinate or murder someone? Abortion is assassination! Its Murder. Murder is unjust for humans to do because we are not God. God can take someone home to heaven, you do not have this luxury. Capitol punishment is not murder, its justice. You know this, you deny these facts. You just keep repeating your dogma.
"A fool takes no pleasure in understanding but only in expressing his opinion."~ Proverbs 18:2
Is it morally relative to assassinate or murder someone? Abortion is assassination! Its Murder. Murder is unjust for humans to do because we are not God. God can take someone home to heaven, you do not have this luxury. Capitol punishment is not murder, its justice. You know this, you deny these facts. You just keep repeating your dogma.
ReplyDeleteSo, let me get this straight, Dan. According to you, God can do whatever because he made us, right? The creator can do whatever he wants with the creation.
Okay, so, by this logic, it's fine for an artist to destroy his work, even if that work has been appreciated and valued by many others. An architect should be able to destroy a building he designed, regardless of how many people live in it. The maker of a car can trash it whenever he feels like it, even if it someone has been driving it for years. Makers' rights reign supreme.
Yeah. What a great system, Dan!
But of course, I forgot. Your god-logic has no room for anything as insignificant as the real world.
You've demonstrated far better than I could, Rhomphala, that you're a moral relativist. I hope you can live with that.
ReplyDeleteI'm willing to bet that no matter no long we discuss this, neither Rhomphala nor Dan will concede their arguments boil down to moral relativism.
ReplyDeleteDD,
ReplyDelete>>The creator can do whatever he wants with the creation.
NOT AT ALL!! God can only do what His Nature is. He cannot be evil, lie, or murder. Again capital punishment is not murder. We have been through this though. I understand, its hard to break from your religious dogma.
-gasp-
ReplyDeleteDan- he's calling us that naughty word again! Waaaaahhhh!!! Boo hoo hoo! I want my moooommmmmaa!
WEM, are you used to hitting/causing brick walls with those words? Is that your trick card up your sleeve? Is that what usually 'sends the Christians running'?
We're not vampires and that ain't a bulb of garlic. Hocus pocus. Voodoo. Spell casting. Blah blah.
Moral relativism encompasses views and arguments that people in various cultures have held over several thousand years.
The Word of God and its morality transcends time. God's Word is FOREVER.
Heaven and earth will pass away, but His Word will stand FOREVER.
Go ahead and believe your man-made ideas....beware though, they are subject to change every time your emotions shift.
But as for me and my house....we will serve the Lord. His Words are SURE. They don't change. They are forever.
One more thing about the human heart and mindset:
(Jer 17:9) The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Wem,
ReplyDelete>>I'm willing to bet that no matter no long we discuss this, neither Rhomphala nor Dan will concede their arguments boil down to moral relativism.
Only in your SUBJECTIVITY ONLY worldview. Its merely subjectively moral relativism in your viewpoint, on a personal level. Unless you are arguing that its universally true that its moral relativism. If so, then you already lost the argument. For the sake of this argument, I could not care less about your mere OPINION.
I know the conversation has kind of moved on, but I'm still curious as to how some of you see the killing of the Canaanite children and animals as a sensible thing. Even allowing for the whole clay-potter dynamic, why not flex that omniscience and omnipotence to kill only those who were involved in the killing of children? Or at the very least restrict the killing to adult humans. I'm not looking to fan any flames or take sides, just curious about that particular fact.
ReplyDeleteGod can only do what His Nature is.
ReplyDeletePrecisely how does a supernatural entity have a nature, Dan?
Having a particular nature implies limits. I thought you believed your god had none.
Is it now your contention that your god is not omnipotent?
Unless you are arguing that its universally true that its moral relativism.
ReplyDeleteThis statement sets up a false dichotomy between absolute and arbitrary, Dan.
Furthermore, you are confusing universal morality with objective morality. Something does not have to be wrong for all beings at all times and in all circumstances in order to be objectively wrong for a particular being in a particular time and particular circumstances.
And if you are really arguing that killing babies is universally wrong, then you have contradicted yourself, because then it would be wrong for your god too, at least when it was acting within this universe.
Dan makes the same mistake as most Christian fundagelicals do: he assumes "objective morality" means "right/wrong in all places at all times under all circumstances".
ReplyDeleteUnless, of course, one of those circumstances happens to God himself. He made the rules, he can do anything he wants.
aka. even under Dan's definition, objective morality doesn't exist. He's just too pig-headed to admit this.
Indeed, nothing at all is objective in Dan's worldview, because he believes everything has its source in the mind of his god - therefore, subjectivity is all.
ReplyDeleteOh, and another thing - if Dan really supposes that his god can slaughter babies for an undisclosed "morally sufficient" reason, then he's got no grounds for claiming that his god might not give him false revelations for a similarly undisclosed morally sufficient reason. So much for his basis for all possible knowledge.
ReplyDeleteYou've arrived at the position I currently find myself. Dan's responses are nothing more than static, and he doesn't appear to be interested in addressing the problems with his world view.
ReplyDeleteDD (and the rest of you), I applaud your willingness to discuss these things with him. I simply can't stomach a person who's so enthusiastically dishonest in talking about things he claims are important - which is why I wont talk with him any more.
I hope you folks manage to get him to get him to deal with you honestly. I was unable to.
It would be highly dishonest of me to say I'm expecting miracles, WEM :)
ReplyDeleteThe truth is, I've spent a fair bit of time nutting out this whole presup thing, and I'm content with getting straight in my own mind exactly why it's bullshit - justifying the hunch, I guess.
I don't really mind not actually engaging Dan in discussion, since he's shown himself much less interested in actually arguing his position than in juvenile point-scoring - but from what I've gathered, that's pretty much the presup MO. Asking questions he's not prepared to answer seems to be the best way to shut down his merry-go-round of demands that we concede his conclusions before he's even made an argument.
Dan, I was away on vacation. I actually was down in one of the places in America that is densely populated with the likes of you.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I just wanted to respond to your response to my last post. As usual you take my comment out of context. I clearly mentioned about DormantDragons post previous to mine and was very clearly extrapolating on his point. I never said anything about laws or legality but instead spoke on education since you had made the statement to just 'close your legs' instead promoting recklessness. I wanted to point out that it takes far more sex than you seem to think to have better results.
As for more VD in the places with a fuller sex education in schools and public resources, I would like to see your resource for this information.
~Atomic Chimp
Dormant Dragon wrote the following to me: I don't really mind not actually engaging Dan in discussion, since he's shown himself much less interested in actually arguing his position than in juvenile point-scoring - but from what I've gathered, that's pretty much the presup MO.
ReplyDeleteThat's been my experience too. Although introduced to presuppositionalism via Sye and Dan, every single presup-apologist I've encountered does exactly they same thing: they stifle conversation until you're willing to convert.
I don't have to agree with someone in order to converse with them. Heck, I seem to be one of the few who's willing to admit to discussing things (readily) with Stormbringer. We agree to disagree - what MORE could you want from a verbal opponent?
Dan's not like that, and I haven't met a presuppositional apologist who is. They're not interested in conversation. They merely want you to go away. Dan seems to get a sense of satisfaction by being an asshat.
Trino,
ReplyDelete>>I know the conversation has kind of moved on, but I'm still curious as to how some of you see the killing of the Canaanite children and animals as a sensible thing.
The difference is when we murder someone we are REMOVING them from our only plane we know and are in right now. We are getting rid of a human FROM us by aborting them. The same was for the Canaanite children. They have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We deny them that God given right. If they don't want children, don't do the thing that makes them.
God, on the other hand, brings children HOME to Him. He is calling them home for a better life to be with Him. God KNOWS better then us. I trust His plan and ways. Which is a better life, being sacrificed by your parents or living knowing that you were rejected or being at home with our kind gentle Creator in Heaven forever? Its obvious.
DD,
ReplyDelete>>Precisely how does a supernatural entity have a nature, Dan?
Wait, I just answered that. This dance between posts is dizzying.
Wem,
ReplyDelete>> I simply can't stomach a person who's so enthusiastically dishonest in talking about things he claims are important - which is why I wont talk with him any more.
I cannot stomach your fallacious arguments. (Argumentum ad populum, Appeal to emotion, etc.)
If you claim it, it MUST be true right Wem? *pshaw
Wem,
ReplyDelete>>Dan seems to get a sense of satisfaction by being an asshat.
You really want one?
Just to be clear, I'm not arguing for abortion. I'm simply focusing on the story about the Canaanites. It's interesting, however, to see what you consider to be the best solution for the two cases. For modern-day children on the verge of being aborted, you believe the greater good would be to allow them to survive and live a full, blessed life. For the Canaanite children, you believe the greater good was to take them up into heaven. Correct me if you didn't mean it that way, but that seems very inconsistent to me. Why shouldn't the Canaanite children be allowed life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as well?
ReplyDeleteI've also noticed that you describe abortion as a violent, bloody affair, while the Canaanites were simply "taken home". Nowhere in the scriptures does it indicate that those children were killed any more gently than the adults, but yet you don't seem to flinch at the idea of them being killed just as brutally as an aborted child.
Which is a better life, being sacrificed by your parents or living knowing that you were rejected or being at home with our kind gentle Creator in Heaven forever?
It sounds like your answer to that question is "it depends on when and where you were born".
Also, I'm a bit disappointed that you didn't comment on the most pertinent aspect of my post: What on earth did the poor animals ever do? :-)
Trino,
ReplyDelete>>Why shouldn't the Canaanite children be allowed life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as well?
Well, you caught me at my bias. God made the choice to take the Canaanite children home. I do not fully understand it, but I trust it. Its done by His hand, so its righteous and good. Abortions, on the other hand, is being done at the had of people, not God. Howard Huge difference.
Even if the kids of Andrea Yates are in Heaven, it does not make it right, because as the Bible says, if you murder someone you shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:12)
>>What on earth did the poor animals ever do?
Well, lets sit down for a steak dinner and talk about it. :7)
Well, you caught me at my bias. God made the choice to take the Canaanite children home. I do not fully understand it, but I trust it. Its done by His hand, so its righteous and good. Abortions, on the other hand, is being done at the had of people, not God. Howard Huge difference.
ReplyDeleteEven if the kids of Andrea Yates are in Heaven, it does not make it right, because as the Bible says, if you murder someone you shall be put to death.
Wow. Caught out in moral relativism. Nice one, Dan.
Yea Dan, I particularly like Psalm 137:8-9 where god is all about throwing infants on the rocks in revenge.
ReplyDeleteYea, its OK if its god gingerly killing them on the rocks below for his master plan.
The fact that you think anything is OK as long as its god doing it is frightening. Glad to see you finally admit it though. After all of these other occasions where you tried to weasel your way out of it with your twisted logic, its rather refreshing for you to be more honest with us.
~Atomic Chimp
Would you know if your god was giving you a false revelation, Dan?
ReplyDeleteIn anticipation of your probable response ("lying is contrary to the nature of god!") I put it to you that if you are prepared to claim that slaughtering babies is not murder when your god does it, then presumably delivering false revelation doesn't count as lying, either, when your god does it.
Dan
ReplyDeleteWell, you caught me at my bias. God made the choice to take the Canaanite children home. I do not fully understand it, but I trust it. Its done by His hand, so its righteous and good. Abortions, on the other hand, is being done at the had of people, not God. Howard Huge difference.
How so? Let's see:
The women who had abortions did so willingly; the ones who god wanted killed had their children taken away from them without their consent, and they were killed too!
Yeah, that's one huge difference there, buddy.
Your god is worse, by far than any even "backstreet" abortionist.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Any christian who calls themselves "pro-life" is lying. Pure and simple.
Any one going for an abortion is morally able to call you a hypocrite to your face and is morally capable of telling you to go "eff" yourself.
http://www.atheistpropaganda.com/2011/02/theists-justification-for-genocide.html
ReplyDeletemy favorate part was this
"Here's an idea.... if your god hates these things so much, why don't you let IT kill these people? Why does it need YOU and your scumbag kind to help it? Why does this impotent omnipotent being never do anything for itself? If it wants these people to die, let it take care of them. Maybe if they don't all die immediate horrible deaths, it's a sign that either a) your god doesn't mind these things and possibly even endorses them, like slavery, or b) it doesn't exist at all. If a god only acts through the actions of humans, how can we distinguish between those acts and acts which are committed by humans alone?"
Romania is a mafia state with not working administration governed by organized crime.
ReplyDeleteHuman trafficking in Romania is a state policy and a modern retail which feed corruption and organized crime. Organized crime is constantly looking for legitimate business that could be used as a cover.Behind such companies, actually hiding network specializing in recruitment of girls who end up prostitute.
These companies are used as a mask, to support illegal activities, to wash the money, but also because leaders mobs to be seen as successful entrepreneurs.
Besides these companies, strongly related with them, in the town of Curtea de Arges (Romania) exist more mafia groups(indestructible mafia groups) which with the complicity of local taxi drivers, recruit, transport, and place girls to practice prostitution, girls which later are trafficked external.
According to data held by the Italian authorities in Roma: 85% of prostitutes in Rome are romanian woman. In Milano: eight of ten prostitutes which practice “job” in Milano are romanian woman including Ioana Visan, Berlusconi's hooker from Curtea de Arges (Curtea de Arges, pimps factory from Romania, manager: local corrupt police) arrived in Italy by prostitution networks from Curtea de Arges
Cars of the pimps from Curtea de Arges who recruit girls from prostitution and customers for them: B-14-WXH - prostitute-pimp who was married with Caroli Pici, said Loti, a member of a criminal gang George Nan by world involved in human trafficking, kidnappings, usury and murders, thefts from apartments, and car thefts, and that on the June 20, 2004 abducted and kidnapped Anna Maria Valdata, the italian wife of a tycoon for which demanded a ransom of 1 million euros: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/nightmare-of-kidnapping-returns-to-italy-as-millionaires-wife-is-held-733071.html
http://ziare.zaraf.ro/articol8544/RAPITORUL-MILIARDAREI-INFRACTOR-INTERNATIONAL.htm
http://archivio.panorama.it/home/articolo/idA020001025842 )
and B-34-TND: pimp - one of the mob leaders from Curtea de Arges
About the pimp Caroli Pici, nick Loti and local corrupt police from Curtea de Arges:
http://www.ziarulprofit.ro/archives/6159
http://www.ziarulprofit.ro/archives/10990
http://www.bitpress.ro/articole/dezvaluiri/4078/berlusconi-are-o-amanta-din-curtea-de-arges-ioana-visan-la-orgiile-cu-premierul-italiei.html
http://english.hotnews.ro/stiri-regional_europe-6153792-ioana-visan-the-presumed-prostitute-italian-berlusconi-was-fired.htm
http://www.cancan.ro/showbiz/sexy/cu-ea-a-mers-in-patul-lui-berlusconi-146292.html
...in Denmark, Romania is the country with the most prostitutes and according to Europol, Eurojust, The Times, CNN, the first exporter of prostitution in Europe is Romania.
German Bundestag: "Corruption in Romania is a worrying problem. It's not a sporadic apparition is a systematic phenomenon.”.
El Pais about Romania: corrupt and without money.
La Croix: Romania, the most corrupt country in Europe.
Tel Aviv: Corruption in Romania is a national disease.
The Times: Romania is the first exporter of prostitution.
Transparency International: In Romania, the atmosphere is filled with corruption
Jan Marinus Wiersma: Romania still needs another 25 years to eradicate corruption
Geert Wilders: Romania and Bulgaria should be excluded from the EU due to high corruption and irregularities which make them unsuitable as members of the EU.