A conversation in Pulp Fiction came to mind where Vincent and Jules were discussing the miricle they witnessed when neither one were shot by that Man. Bullets were behind them but they were untouched. The Man completely misses every shot and is gunned down himself. While Vincent shrugs it off, Jules realizes he should be dead.VINCENT: Yeah, we were lucky.
JULES: That wasn't luck. That was somethin else.
VINCENT: Yeah, maybe.
JULES: That was...divine intervention. Do you know what divine intervention is?
VINCENT: Yeah, I think so. That means God came down from heaven and stopped the bullets.
JULES: Yeah, man, thats what it means. Thats exactly what it means!
The conversation later continues while getting breakfast in a coffee shop (the Dennys-like place from the opening scene, about to be robbed).
JULES: I just been sittin here thinkin.
VINCENT: (mouthful of food) About what?
JULES: The miracle we witnessed.
VINCENT: The miracle you witnessed. I witnessed a freak occurrence.
JULES: Do you know what a miracle is?
VINCENT: An act of God.
JULES: Whats an act of God?
VINCENT: I guess its when God makes the impossible possible. And Im sorry, Jules, but I dont think what happened this morning qualifies.
JULES: Dont you see, Vince, that dont matter. Youre judging this thing the wrong way. Its not about what. It could be God stopped the bullets, he changed Coke into Pepsi, he found my car keys. You dont judge this based on merit. Whether or not what we experienced was an according-to-Hoyle miracle is insignificant. What is significant is I felt Gods touch. God got involved.
VINCENT: But why?
JULES: ...I dont know why. But I cant go back to sleep.
VINCENT: So youre serious, youre really gonna quit?
JULES: The life? Most definitely.
Atheists are always asking what these 'so called' experiences that people have pertaining to God. I have had many try to explain each one of them away and this is why I named it "Collective Experiences" There are many "God experiences" that removes all doubt. God's Word is vague about these encounters though.Aimee Moiso said: My Hebrew Bible professor would say, the biblical writers were not interested in psychoanalysing the protagonists.
The Bible says God speaks through a burning bush, through angels, through farm animals. But how does he speak to us? Between these two following lists you can see vastly different personal experiences, so nothing is set in stone. (pun intended) Maybe you could add some more for us. My list is quite similar to these two with few insertions/ deletions. Personally, I should have died 5-7 times in my younger years and when I now look in my children's eyes I understand why God kept me around.
In a different blog in the past, someone asked how does God speak to me and a couple of people, who had much better answers then mine, wrote the following:
So how does God speak to me?Another answered like this:
In no particular order:
1) Through scripture.
2) Through nature (the big things and the small).
3) Through other Christians.
4) Through other people (all truth is God breathed).
5) Through impressions in my Spirit.
6) Through dreams (very rarely in my case).
7) With an audible voice (extremely rare in my case).
8) Through seeing things with my eyes that are not actually present in the physical world (rare, but it has happened).
9) Some things I just "know" without having perceived them.
10) Through miracles.
11) Through peace, joy etc. (deeper than mere emotion).
12) Through things I have written.
13) Through science, mathematics, philosophy.
14) Through all expressions of love.
15) Through reason.
16) In music, especially (but not exclusively) gospel / worship music.
I do not know How He is speaking with you. He speaks to me most often in:Probably most of these things can be argued away as coincidence or whatnot individually, but collectively in someone's life experiences they cannot be written off. There is a double entendre going on with this post title also. The collective experiences of the individual through one's life and collective experiences in a group of people.
1. synchronicities…
2. impossible "coincidences"…
3. things that oddly catch my attention…
4. unfolding chains of events.
5. SYMBOLS symbolism found in my dreaming and my waking!
6. "double" meanings and "life signs"…
7. creation. everything existing in the physical world… speaks of the Spirit. everything.
8. supernatural heightening of the senses.
9. out and out "impossibilities"
10. simple spiritual intuition.
These "coincidences" happen to many people all over the world. Are they all phenomena that can be explained away? Does it mean God is reaching out to us? If you are going to rebuttal and debate, then you will have to explain the phenomena as a whole collection of experiences not just each event individually.You can experience these same experiences yourself but you have to go to God on His terms.
God will manifest himself to you as He promised in John 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."
What should we do with these revelations?
Proverbs 25:2 "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."
Dan,
ReplyDeleteSince this does not qualify as any debunking atheism, I have a true question for you.
I love the story about the guy who gave three sons (or whatever they were), talents before leaving for a good while. You know, not the same number of talents, so one of them had only one talent, then, when the talent giver returns, the person with only one talent had buried the talent afraid to lose his only asset. So, the talent giver said: get out of my sight you satan! How dare you not to use that talent! Or something to the effect.
Can you point me to the verses? If not in the bible, just let me know.
G.E.
The Parable of the Talents
ReplyDeleteYes, thank you.
ReplyDeleteActually it was hard to find just a few months ago. But now it appears everywhere when I search google (searching for "parable of the talents").
I heard it a million times when I was a kid. Truly inspiring to use whatever talents you might have, few or many.
G.E.
Crusaders still exist. Ever hear of Pat Robertson and John Hagee? But as a more practical matter, groups in general break up and form into different groups. Indeed, the "Israel" and "christianity" that exist today have little in common with the "Israel" and "christianity" of nearly 2000 years ago (the names and a "holy book.") Even the interpretations of the "holy book" have changed. If you were to go back to that time (given that you could speak the language) you would probably stoned or burned as a heretic.
ReplyDeletePvblivs,
ReplyDeleteIndeed, the "Israel" and "[C]hristianity" that exist today have little in common with the "Israel" and "[C]hristianity" of nearly 2000 years ago
Indeed, a real tragedy.
Even the interpretations of the "holy book" have changed.
Are you sure about that? Narrow is the path sure, but still a path to Salvation. God's word has been preserved as He wanted it to be.
"you would probably stoned or burned as a heretic."
Well, so was Jesus and most all the apostles and even a great number of Christians as recent as even today. So I would be in good company. Who cares what mankind thinks, as long as God is pleased.
Dan- pvblivs already said it, but I'll put it a little differently. If the survival of Judaism is proof of God's favor, what of the survival of Hinduism? Hindus have been around even longer than Jews, and they've had plenty of enemies too. So lay off that beef.
ReplyDeleteCome to think of it, atheists have been around even longer than Hindus and Jews. Do chimps believe in God? So we must be even more favored than any of you religious folks.
And as far as the power of personal experience goes- no disrespect intended, Dan, but you do know, don't you, that many people have similar conversion experiences, but are led to believe in Krishna, or Allah, or that they themselves are Napoleon? I'm sure if an angel, or a burning bush, or a farm animal spoke to me, I too would rethink my atheism. But I'm still waiting...
Dan:
ReplyDeleteYou cited people who were presumably executed by the Roman Empire as threats to the state. That was not my reference. You would have been considered a false christian by even those early martyrs who were willing to die for their beliefs. Who knows? Maybe the state would accept you as one of its own.
Pvblivs,
ReplyDelete"You would have been considered a false christian by even those early martyrs who were willing to die for their beliefs."
I'm sorry Pvblivs you have to prove your claim with evidence. Help me understand what you mean, please. Give me some contextual examples so I understand your viewpoint otherwise it's not a valid claim.
Hmmm. I guess the Aztecs, Myans, and Incas were also guilty of treating the Jews badly too, eh?
ReplyDeleteDan's right Pvblivs...
ReplyDeletePaul was a known hater of those who professed a belief in, and devotion to "the Way" those Christ followers...
However, Peter and the other disciples all agreed that he was, in fact, genuine in his conversion after they heard his testimony, and the testimony of those who'd heard him preach...
I haven't heard Dan preach, however, I've read many of his posts, and I'd vouch for him... Rather than stone him as a heretic, that is...
Reynold,
ReplyDeleteCorrect me if I am wrong but didn't the Aztecs and Mayans sacrifice babies and virgins? They were guilty of treating everyone innocent badly.
Benjamin,
Welcome and Thanks, I am always open to being corrected as I am fallible. In the past, atheists have even showed me where I was wrong Biblically. I cherish those moments. I learn everyday a better understanding for our Creator and for that, I am grateful.
Well, I can't wait until you spout off on some sort of abhorrent phrase or topic so I can tear you apart as we've seen them do with their friend Patrick... or better yet Ellen Johnson...
ReplyDeleteor better yet Ellen Johnson...
ReplyDeleteHey, no cussing at this blog! ;-)
Benjamin:
ReplyDeleteI do not claim that modern christians would consider Dan a heretic. I claim that if (by whatever means) Dan found himself among the early christians, they would regard him as a heretic. After all, he would certainly let slip some heretical ideas (e.g. the earth is not flat, the sun's apparent motion is caused by the rotation of the earth, Jesus would not return in the lifetime of those early people.) Good grief, even advocating an active resistance to a potential lawsuit would probably be considered heretical. Times have changed. Dan fits in quite well with modern christians. But they bear little resemblence to the predecessors.
I'm thinking of a word . . . it's a psychological phenomenon . . . five syllables . . . rhymes with "zap a beanie, huh?" . . .
ReplyDeleteAnyone? Anyone? (Hint: this post is a textbook example of it!)
Pvblivs,
ReplyDelete"Dan fits in quite well with modern [C]hristians"
I do not! Example of modern church teachings
Irukandji,
I have no clue, enlighten us.
Dan:
ReplyDeleteGiven Benjamin's comment defending you, I'd say you fit in just fine. He wasn't plucked out of the Roman Empire. Maybe you think he's hindu or buddhist?
Irukandji said...
ReplyDeleteI'm thinking of a word . . . it's a psychological phenomenon . . . five syllables . . . rhymes with "zap a beanie, huh?" . . .
Anyone? Anyone? (Hint: this post is a textbook example of it!)
July 30, 2008 8:02 PM
I imediately went to the almighty google......i looked up zaphapillia, xenophobia, , some other made up words. I know it is an thing with an -enia......but that is my closest clue.
Then my mind lighted up and said.
i think this rhymes with zap a beanie, huh....but it was rather my schizo-phren-ia.
but still this is by no means an example of that. Therefore i NEED A CLEARER CLUE, Dude.
AS to the rest,
ReplyDeleteI can see Purv's point that what ever we have today that we call christianity, it clearly is a very bastardised version of the church of yore. It is Hardly the church of Acts.
The mainstream theology and common practice of the religion is something i dont think The Lord would call his example of truth on earth.
The main body of followers may hold what others would call true doctrines but their hearts are far form the living word.
I suppose i am echoing the Bible by saying that. Even Jesus lamented "but all the same will i even find faith on earth when i return?"
But we still have no means to judge that perhaps Dan himself would be concidered a heritic.
Like that other guy said, the proof of wether or not god is with him as christ intended, would be in his preaching. But more so it would be in the result of the preaching.
And by preaching i am not referring to how eloquaintly dan might be able to spin us the yard of the old grugged cross. I am referring to the Power and demonstration of what would only be the Wisdom and clarity of God, to whomever the Holy spirit intends a message to be preached.
As Paul said "we did not come by cunningly divised fables. But in demonstration and power."
Apophenia: the experience of seeing patterns or connections in random or meaningless data.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, Insanezenmistress, schizophrenics are particularly prone to apophenia. I certainly wouldn't go so far as to call this post a textbook example of schizophrenia, but it bears closer resemblance to the typical schizophrenic thought process than you might realize.
Irukandji,
ReplyDelete"I certainly wouldn't go so far as to call this post a textbook example of schizophrenia, but it bears closer resemblance to the typical schizophrenic thought process than you might realize."
This poo flinging is hilarious! So far I have been called all sorts of things like an idiot, retarded, and now schizophrenic. I will wear these as badges of honor if they come from someone like you that spends most of his energy hating God and His followers. Thanks for the smiles.
Dan +†+ said...
ReplyDeleteReynold,
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't the Aztecs and Mayans sacrifice babies and virgins? They were guilty of treating everyone innocent badly.
If I remember the point of that picture you had, of the civilizations that tried to destroy the Jews all went extinct. The picture portrayed their extinction to the fact that they all tried to destroy the Jews. "the smallest of nations but with a friend in the highest of places, so be nice!"
That was apparently one of the "coincidences" you were thinking about.
I was trying to point out that all sorts of past cultures, even those who did nothing to the Jewish people have been wiped out or just died out.
As for the Aztecs and Myans, how many Jews did they kill? Sure, they were bloodthirsty, but it was religion that was responsible for that attitude.
You may also want to look to the eskimos the australian aboriginines, native north americans, etc.
You will go on to say that they killed "innocents" to, but then, what culture does not?
The fact is that even if those cultures shown in that picture of yours did not persecute the jews, they'd still have died out. You still could have justified that by saying that they killed innocents.
There are a lot of cultures out there that did nothing to the Jewish people yet they still fell anyway.
It's not "coincidence" or "the hand of god", it's just the cycle of the rise and fall of nations, and of one nation conquering another.
I could point out that the Roman empire fell after it became christianized.
ReplyDeleteThe fall was due to many factors, actually, but the fact that they worshipped your god didn't help them any.
What an odd coincidence.
Dan -
ReplyDeleteSo far I have been called all sorts of things like an idiot, retarded, and now schizophrenic.
I didn't call you schizophrenic; I merely pointed out that apophenia - the near-universal human tendency to perceive patterns where none exist, typified by this post - plays a particularly pronounced role in the schizophrenic thought process.
Medical diagnoses made over the internet generally aren't worth the bandwidth they consume, but I will say that based on what you say about yourself on this blog and in your profile, it's extraordinarily unlikely that you are an undiagnosed schizophrenic (and if you are, you are a very unusually high-functioning one). However, you are either unwilling or unable to distinguish between coincidence and secret communication from some invisible being, which means that you have a bit more in common with schizophrenics than most of us do. Congratulations!
I will wear these as badges of honor if they come from someone like you that spends most of his energy hating God and His followers.
Actually, I'm just a woman who spends her coffee breaks poking fun at the obnoxiously deluded. But thanks anyway, I guess.
Thanks for the smiles.
Anytime!
Irukandji,
ReplyDelete"Actually, I'm just a woman who spends her coffee breaks poking fun at the obnoxiously deluded. But thanks anyway, I guess."
(wiping egg on my face) My apologies, me lady. Welcome.
MMM coffee! Something else I had to give up because of my addictive personality. Just give me one sip, just one, please. Let me smell it, just one smell.
Fight the evil! No! Yes! I can't, you can, just be calm.
Did you hear those voices too, Irukandji?
Uh oh?...
If there is a God trying to 'reach' us then why are his attempts so piss weak?
ReplyDeleteI would suggest that every point 1-16 and 1-10 should be attempted to explained in detail to be submitted as evidence. Everything!
eg.
10) Through miracles.
please explain etc,etc
Ant,
ReplyDelete>>If there is a God trying to 'reach' us then why are his attempts so piss weak?
It is enough for billions of people, including myself. Is it God's weakness, or your resistance, that God has not chosen you? Again, I am sure you would concede that an omniscient, omnipotent being could reveal things to us, such that we can be certain of them.
[God will manifest himself to you as He promised in John 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."]
That, my friend, you can go to the bank with. God exists.