It's so strange to me. People who are so enslaved to pride, sin, and a false autonomy, insist that they are free.
One serves either God or Satan. Any idea of a spiritual Switzerland is most pleasing to Satan as he has built his kingdom on it. That false autonomy is what cast Satan out of hell and his children are chips off the old block, and most don't even know it.
I'd just like to add, Todd Friel does not help things with his silly tactics. I listen to his show, and appreciate it most of the time, but he really blows it sometimes too. Who doesn't?
This whole battling atheists thing gets old. I know we should give answer and oppose the neo-atheist offensive, but it seems that many are making tactical errors. Like Ray Comfort. I call him a brother, but battling atheists? I don't think it is his gig.
The main reason why I posted this is what Todd (C.H. Spurgeon) said at the very end. The reason why Atheists rage against God is because they want to live their own autonomous way, to live anyway they want to, without being accountable to our Creator. That to me is the crust of the Atheists out there that I have talked to and the reason why I didn't humble to God for 22 years of my own life. I lived for and loved sin, and I didn't want to stop for anyone. Of course they will deny this if it is brought up so that it was very refreshing that Hitchens candidly admitted to that point.
How can you debunk something when you have clearly demonstrated you do not even know what it means? How can atheists rage against something they do not accept as true. You fail before you even get to the track, never mind getting out of the gate.
Like Ray Comfort. I call him a brother, but battling atheists? I don't think it is his gig.If you truly care for the lost and you love your neighbor then what else are we to do with Atheists in spiritual warfare? A side benefit, as you know, they bring the crowds and ask great challenging questions to hone our witnessing skills and help solidify our(my) beliefs. I would be very misinformed without the Atheists that I know. They challenge my intellect, which I enjoy. They are the ultimate anti-yes men, which I respect far more. Without Atheists, I wouldn't defend God and the Bible as much as I do. I wouldn't see a read need to fight very hard. They are, hands down, a formidable opponent. Without Atheists I wouldn't know what to say to people face to face when asked the tough questions that we addressed the night before in the blogosphere. Atheists made me think, very hard, for my beliefs. I am grateful for knowing so many Atheists. Only a true friend will tell a friend that they stink. Sometimes I stink and I need to hear that. I consider them friends. I love Atheists.
Also, I Love Ray obviously. I did the very moment I heard him speak against the modern churches and his Open Air preaching. He had me at "Would you consider yourself...?" God has done so many great things through that man throughout the years that I have known him. I see great fruit, don't you? I love also, Ray's salesmanship and boldness to open air preach to the masses here in the US since the 70's! He did it all alone for many years, out of the lime light, and for no pay. Even though they mock him, I love that guys moxie. Ray is a wonderful and caring man and I consider it an honor to know him.
I just did a book review of a very tired, boring, and sad book from John. If you want to read how a book should be written then read Ray's first book WOTM. I laughed, I cried and was actually touched. I loved it so much I purchased a case (100) of them. I give them out to everyone I feel that would benefit from it. A standing offer to everyone is, if anyone wishes to have a free copy of his book "Way of the Master" I will send them one at no charge. All I ask is for a promise to read it.
Fuck no nutballs, nobody wants your silly book of even more fairy tales by Ray "The Banana man" Comfort. You think you are god's very own crusader, but have you not yet realized that evangelically proselytizing your message is an extremely rude way to be a member of society? Have you not considered that most people are rational, functioning people who can think for themselves and that what you are doing is not "teaching people" but in fact harassing them? If gods message is so freaking good, wouldn't people be able to come to it on their own without you? And finally, "debunking atheists" is itself a logical fallacy, as the burden of proof for the existence of god is on you. You can't "debunk" a negative, that's like saying "Debunking Disbelief in Santa Claus" or "Debunking Disbelief in Cosmic Purple Space Ferrets"
>>You think you are god's very own crusader, but have you not yet realized that evangelically proselytizing your message is an extremely rude way to be a member of society?
To those to whom the gospel message is uncomfortable, it is received quite differently, I agree. When Jesus preached in His hometown at first they were amazed at His Words, but by the end of His sermon they tried to throw Him off a cliff (Luke 4: 14-30)
The truth sometimes moves people to want to throw us off cliffs, but if we withhold the truth due to the reaction we might receive, then we are not teaching like our Lord.
>>If gods message is so freaking good, wouldn't people be able to come to it on their own without you?
Doesn't matter, they do go to God when called to do so. It certainly is not like God is failing in any way, and somehow He needs us, because He doesn't. That is a ridiculous viewpoint. No, my argument is not intended to be convincing, I am merely commanded to speak the truth, defend it, and expose falsehoods. 'Convincing' is out of my hands.
>>And finally, "debunking atheists" is itself a logical fallacy, as the burden of proof for the existence of god is on you.
But proof presupposes the absoluteness of truth. One cannot prove a falsehood. It also must be known, because one cannot prove what one does not know. It also must be logical because without logic, no proof could make sense.
So what does a belief in truth, knowledge, and logic assume? They assume God.
>> You can't "debunk" a negative
Sure you can silly. If you were to say that you don't have a blue ball in your pocket, and I see the bulge and reach in and grab it to show you, I have showed you that I "debunked your negative claim". Try to keep up.
>> that's like saying "Debunking Disbelief in Santa Claus"
I can certainly can, but it is the Atheists with a Santa Syndrome. Thanks for revealing that though.
>>or "Debunking Disbelief in Cosmic Purple Space Ferrets"
Is THAT your worldview? It's certainly debunkable. If it is I will show you, but if this is a hypothetical worldview then I can introduce hypothetical worldviews that get's us nowhere. You wish to waste time? Now, how do you know your reasoning is valid?
"But proof presupposes the absoluteness of truth. One cannot prove a falsehood. It also must be known, because one cannot prove what one does not know. It also must be logical because without logic, no proof could make sense.
So what does a belief in truth, knowledge, and logic assume? They assume God."
This is so filled with circular logic that all I can picture in my head is you running around in a circle smelling your own farts like a cat with it's tail. If this is the backwards logic that you use to delude yourself in the existence of god, by all means use it.
I realize I may be actively trying to be offensive in my posts, but that is only in defense to your proselytizing and actively hateful stance towards your atheist brothers and sisters. Why must you try to convert everyone to your world view? I may think your views silly, but I would defend to the death your right to believe them. It is perfectly alright to believe what you want in your public life and also in the privacy of your own home, you are simply practicing your autonomy. But your posts are absolutely talking about acts that cross the line, where you are actively stepping on other people's autonomy in a quest to advance your own beliefs. In exactly the same way that the muslim world believes themselves to be god's chosen people and if they could, would actively impose Islam on the world, you are proselytizing a form of fundamentalism that encroaches onto public policy and governing. This is directly attacking other people's autonomy. It is one thing to inform the public that your doors are open to teach anyone that may want to learn the way of your god, but what you are doing is an entirely different story. The definition of the word "Christian" is directly "christ-like". Even if you do believe that your atheist neighbors are going to hell, why rage at them with such ferocity when instead you could be making a much greater difference by "killing them with kindness" as they say. Set a good example for people on what it means to be a Christian, and that would change magnitudes of orders more times the number of converts you could make.
I truly wish that we could just sit down like 2 normal adults and have a beer (or any beverage) together, and for just that short time forget the hatred that burns in you against atheists and my preconceptions of your intelligence that cause us such friction.
>>This is so filled with circular logic that all I can picture in my head is you running around in a circle smelling your own farts like a cat with it's tail.
OK, to avoid a relativist fallacy, this is why asked how do you know your reasoning is valid? Because you need to avoid being a hypocrite and just say that you reason that your reasoning is valid, in a viciously circular manner.
>>If this is the backwards logic that you use to delude yourself in the existence of god, by all means use it.
So, show us all how it is done, how do you know your reasoning is valid, without God or being viciously circular?
>>I realize I may be actively trying to be offensive in my posts, but that is only in defense to your proselytizing and actively hateful stance towards your atheist brothers and sisters.
Hateful? I love you, but love is not coddling. Perfect love is a constant confronter because it takes far more love to confront then to ignore the situation. Matthew 22:39, Leviticus 19:17-18 reveals that. You're confusing hate/animosity with love here, and that is quite disturbing. I have no clue if you have children but we correct out of love, not hate. We guide. Hebrews 12 makes that point clear.
>>Why must you try to convert everyone to your world view?
Sure, I seek to see you to repent from the God you know exists. I'm sure that if an "atheist" wanted to, they could surrender to God, confess and repent of their sins, put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ, and receive a full pardon by God. They just don't want to. Takes us right back to Proverbs 14:2, doesn't it.
>> But your posts are absolutely talking about acts that cross the line, where you are actively stepping on other people's autonomy in a quest to advance your own beliefs.
So, you're intolerant of of my intolerance?
>>This is directly attacking other people's autonomy.
But you're not, by trying to do that to others here, with your own autonomy? Who are you trying to convince, me or you?
>>Even if you do believe that your atheist neighbors are going to hell, why rage at them with such ferocity when instead you could be making a much greater difference by "killing them with kindness" as they say.
Not that is disagree, but how do you know your reasoning about that is valid, again? How are you absolutely certain that your "method" is better?
>>Set a good example for people on what it means to be a Christian, and that would change magnitudes of orders more times the number of converts you could make.
You believe I can convert people? Wow. If that were the case there would be no such thing as an Atheist. Do not be confused, my argument is not intended to be convincing, I am merely commanded to speak the truth, defend it, and expose falsehoods. 'Convincing' is out of my hands.
>>I truly wish that we could just sit down like 2 normal adults and have a beer (or any beverage) together, and for just that short time forget the hatred that burns in you against atheists and my preconceptions of your intelligence that cause us such friction.
I have in fact said that very same thing, that we would be in Heaven having a cool drink laughing about these times together. Just understand that God does not send people to Hell for denying what they do not know, but for sin against the God that they do know. Hell's gates will be locked from the inside, as CS Lewis pointed out.
Because you have railed against God, and not have God's will be done, i.e. repent and placing your entire trust in Jesus Christ for your Salvation with your heart, mind, and soul, then God will have your will be done and that is separation from Him. We call it despair.
Until then, this HERE would be a gimps of how it would be at a BBQ together. :)
Firstly, the burden of proof for christian claims have not been met. There is zero proof that claims made in the bible are true, and actual reason to believe that many are not. But yet, I still would not assert that I am sure of the non-existence of a deity. We can argue about reasoning and relativistic fallacies all day long, but there is no conjecture, argument, logical reasoning, etc that could ever prove god without actual tangible evidence. If you presuppose that god would not show evidence due to his very nature, you are dismissing logic to support flawed reasoning.
Are you asserting here that the stance you take on this website and your evangelism towards people who don't believe the same way as you, is what you consider love? I applaud you for being a bible literalist and not a wishy washy buffet christian, but again as I said, preaching to people the way you do seems harmful to the goal that you purport to have. People learn better through emulation than from people shoving in their face what to believe. If you have had atheists try to actively deconvert you, than I am truly sorry, but as a whole, most atheists don't give a shit what anyone thinks until it starts to trample on our rights and autonomy. When public political discourse is dictated by how christian you are and when atheists are the most under represented minority in political positions, with >%5 of the population atheists while there are zero atheists in congress, is disturbing.
I never asserted that my world view was more correct than your own. I was simply trying to point out the fact that a large percentage of atheists are in fact apostate. They once did see the world through a religious lens, but were not able to assimilate their beliefs with reality. Nothing that you have said or can say are things that we haven't heard before when we were "religious". Now the usual answer I get to that is, that I must not have been looking for god hard enough or my heart just wasn't open to him. I personally tried uncountable times to "Hear Him" and sought his guidance in every action of my life. When someone tries something over, and over, and over again, and it still isn't working for them yet they keep expecting different results, it is the definition of insanity. To try again and again with the same result expecting something different to happen.. For us, we see it as the blame is not on us, but that the failing is on the part of whatever "deity" we believed we were trying to contact. If he existed and wanted us to believe in him, for an omnipotent all powerful being he sure did a crappy job of it. Isn't a relationship supposed to be two-way?
>Sure, I seek to see you to repent from the God you know exists. I'm sure that if an "atheist" wanted to, they could surrender to God, confess and repent of their sins, put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ, and receive a full pardon by God. They just don't want to.
Here you are making the ultimate mistake that you continuously accuse other people of doing, and that is that you believe you hold some piece of knowledge that only christians have access to and atheists don't. Who exactly are you to claim that all atheists really do believe in god and just that we want to actively disobey him? How incredibly cocky and naive that is to frame everyone elses experience from your own, as if other people aren't capable of living separate experiences from yours. I will repeat that I am apostate. I heard, read, and lived all of the same things you are claiming to know, and came to the conclusion that I didn't believe a word of it. But the real nail in the coffin for me was that even IF all of it were true, and there was absolute proof of god, I obviously would not deny something that I could tangibly prove, but I would still think the whole thing horrendous and call into question all of the atrocities that encompass the situation. I most certainly would rather be in hell than, as Hitchen's dubs it, the "celestial dictatorship" of heaven. I refuse to grovel and subject myself to the whims of what can only be described as a sadistic child
I wish I could say that I enjoyed our dialogue, but your cockiness, combativeness and overall lack of empathy and concern for anything else than your evangelism has left a horrendous taste in my mouth that leads me to conclude that I most certainly will not be returning to this pit.
>>...that could ever prove [God] without actual tangible evidence.
First, proof presupposes the absoluteness of truth. One cannot prove a falsehood. It also must be known, because one cannot prove what one does not know. It also must be logical because without logic, no proof could make sense.
So what does a belief in truth, knowledge, and logic assume? They assume God. and Yes there is pleny of evidence for the existence of God. We even say that all evidence is evidence of God, even one's very ability to reason about evidence.
>>preaching to people the way you do seems harmful to the goal that you purport to have.
I appreciate your vote of confidence but I certainly cannot take people away from God. He calls who He calls, and they follow. The ones that do not wish to follow, for whatever reason, will not, because God allows them to have their will be done. Isn't that a great God. (Rhetorical, of course.)
>>People learn better through emulation than from people shoving in their face what to believe.
How do you KNOW this? Could you be wrong?
>>When public political discourse is dictated by how christian you are and when atheists are the most under represented minority in political positions, with >%5 of the population atheists while there are zero atheists in congress, is disturbing.
Again, you're failing to see that it is BECAUSE of the Christians, you have your freedoms. “The left argues that the Pledge of Allegiance somehow discriminates against the godless, but fails to show evidence of said discrimination,” said the EagleRising.com blog. “What they miss is that the affirmation of God in our society is what protects the unbeliever from discrimination. If there are no moral absolutes attributable to a Righteous and Holy God, then every man should be free to do what is right in their own mind.
This is what the left argues for without considering the consequences – without an absolute moral law one cannot judge evil. If one cannot judge evil by an absolute code, then it is left to the will of the majority to decide what is right and what is wrong. Once that happens, the rights of the minority no longer exist.”
>>They once did see the world through a religious lens, but were not able to assimilate their beliefs with reality.
There is no such a thing as an "ex-Christian". "You cannot reason out of Christianity if Jesus is Lord of your reasoning." ~Sye Ten Bruggencate
>>If he existed and wanted us to believe in him, for an omnipotent all powerful being he sure did a crappy job of it.
Oh boo hoo hoo, and you don't take any blame? Hogwash! As God promised, and He cannot lie. He will not turn away anyone that actually seeks Christ. You could be saved in a few seconds, you choose not to. "The sacrifice pleasing to God is a broken spirit. God, You will not despise a broken and humbled heart." ~Psalm 51:17
>>Isn't a relationship supposed to be two-way?
Amen. You place your entire trust in Jesus Christ for your Salvation with your heart, mind, and soul, and God saves you from the deserved punishment and sanctifies you in the process. He saves you from your reasoning now. It's not just for the next life.
>>Who exactly are you to claim that all atheists really do believe in god and just that we want to actively disobey him?
It's not my claim, it's God's (Romans 1:18-23)
>>I heard, read, and lived all of the same things you are claiming to know, and came to the conclusion that I didn't believe a word of it.
PROOF that you are not, and never were, a Christian. (1 John 2:19) Again, that is great news. There is still time to ACTUALLY be a Christian.
>>...but I would still think the whole thing horrendous and call into question all of the atrocities that encompass the situation.
Oops, before we address that, you have made some assumptions of your point that you will have to defend before the claim is even valid. Like Razi Zacharias said, you have just invoked a moral law, or standard in raising that claim that your worldview cannot account for. That is your presupposition of the claim, is it not? Otherwise, the claim self destructs.
>> your evangelism has left a horrendous taste in my mouth that leads me to conclude that I most certainly will not be returning to this pit.
Aww, you think we're fighting and I think we're finally communicating.
As you know, I spend quite a bit of time with Atheists as well.
I just think that Ray's forte is the evangelical method he has developed and sometimes I think the fight with the neo-Atheists takes on a personal tone with him, so that the gospel takes a back seat to arguments about evolution etc.
There are clear arguments against atheism in the bible, and it should be made, but if you read Ray's blog, it's become a blur of repetitive slander and innuendo to the point that I think that all that is being achieved is the heaping of more wrath on our "friends".
The bible also teaches at some point we are to shake the dust from our feet, and not cast our pearls before swine, etc. This is why I am among the growing voices of criticism for Ray's focus on Atheism.
I don't know. I trust that Ray is being led by the Holy Spirit, but I would rather see him spending more time training evangelists than banging his head on rock hard hearts.
Get my point?
I'd be very interested to hear from Ray on what kind of fruit he is bearing from is efforts. Before he got so popular, he used to answer my emails, now he does not respond.
I still give whole hearted support for Ray's ministry and the WOTM method, all glory to the Master who taught it to Ray.
Like myself, Ray is a surfing Jew and open air preacher, so I have a deep connection to him. I just think his talents are being aimed in the wrong direction.
When Ray switched to that other blog, I forget what it was called, he was listed as a "Anti-Atheism creationist" and not one mention of his faith was to be found on his profile. Not one word about Jesus Christ.
Get my point?I do now. Very valid to boot. I did email him when I heard the bitterness in his voice, in a radio interview, against the "Banana" Atheists. I think he grumbled that they "made a monkey out of him" I expressed to him to embrace it and own it. To laugh with them. That it was a beautiful thing to thrust him into the spotlight. (Negative press is still press, none the less. Any press at all gets the name out there. So anyone in Public Relations would tell you that this is a positive)
I sent the Banana picture of me and he didn't respond but he did give that new video so I will continue to believe that he heard my advice.
"The reason why Atheists rage against God is because they want to live their own autonomous way, to live anyway they want to, without being accountable to our Creator. That to me is the crust of the Atheists out there that I have talked to and the reason why I didn't humble to God for 22 years of my own life. I lived for and loved sin, and I didn't want to stop for anyone. Of course they will deny this if it is brought up so that it was very refreshing that Hitchens candidly admitted to that point."
Dan,
Please do not generalize based on what Hitchens says, and I think you missed his point. Hitchens, in almost all of his debates, properly defines a humanist morality, which actually makes sense as opposed to a dictated morality without any sense behind it. Further, and I am speaking for only myself here, I do not "rage against God", I "rage" against people who claim to know a god exist, and what he demands of us. That is it. I don't have a belief in a god, so it would be like me saying that you "rage against fairies" in your denial that they exist (assuming you don't think they do). Further, for you to say that I am an atheist so that I can do whatever I want is quite a large judgement for a "Christian", isn't it? You simply show that when you were an atheist, you were an immoral person. Now, you simply act well because of your fear of a vengeful sky daddy. This is being good, not for goodness' sake, but merely a selfish act of self-preservation.
hoo boy, I misjudged this blog. I didn't realize it was just another group of people who have a hard time discerning fantasy from reality. Good luck fellas I'm out.
As I suspected; any good points Hitchens makes are ignored and only the one point at the very end which corresponds to your views on athiests is grabbed onto and then generalized to every atheist.
Reynold, this is at the Stan level of wackiness can you recommend any intelligent theist blogs?
Where people don't consider atheists to be "People who are so enslaved to pride, sin, and a false autonomy, insist that they are free"?
Or this gem: "The reason why Atheists rage against God is because they want to live their own autonomous way, to live anyway they want to, without being accountable to our Creator. That to me is the crust of the Atheists out there that I have talked to and the reason why I didn't humble to God for 22 years of my own life. I lived for and loved sin, and I didn't want to stop for anyone"
I'm surprised he didn't claim to have been a satanist priest!
Yowch!
I only responded because the browser was still open, email it to me if you know of one.
There are clear arguments against atheism in the bibleNo, but the whole thing is a giant assertion regarding the existence of a god, so if you meant assertions where you said arguments, your statement is accurate. It's also funny. Thanks, Captain Obvious.
I don't know. I trust that Ray is being led by the Holy Spirit, but I would rather see him spending more time training evangelists than banging his head on rock hard hearts.Humorous, to the last.
I don't know.This sentence should probably have followed that which it precedes.
I trust that Ray is being led by the Holy Spirit, but..."I trust ... the Holy Spirit, but" (emphasis mine)?! If you truly trust that he is being led by the invisiblest part of your god, then why qualify that trust with "but"?
...I would rather see him spending more time training evangelists than banging his head on rock hard hearts.Your sentiment is duly noted and appreciated, but it does not follow from an explicit trust in the one from whom Ray claims to receive instruction... or are you saying you wish god would lead him along a different path? Do you quarrel with god, then? Do you disagree with god's methods?
You True Christians™ are too funny. You're only willing to call someone out as being a False Convert™ after they've exhibited some inexcusable (in your minds) anti-Christian behavior -- if Ray is in danger of being a False Convert™, then call him out on it! If Dan is concerned that El Dani may be a deluded nutcase for predicting the demise of much of California, then call him out on it!
...or does your god have you all working from different playbooks?
What's that? You're about to say that god compartmentalizes his "plan"? That's all well and good, but it sure seems that the left hand doesn't know where the right hand is putting its thumb... In any case, such extreme compartmentalization necessarily allows for apparently disparate "interpretations" of theology to coexist, which does not help your mutually exclusive club's case.
I feel a rant coming on, but I'll mute it for now. In the meantime, I recommend you True Christians™ get together and compare notes -- you're on several different pages of several different books, and most of them are non-canonical.
so it would be like me saying that you "rage against fairies" in your denial that they exist I do rage against fairies and they do exist...they hit on me all the time. :)
I didn't mean every single Atheist that I speak with but as a generality it appears that way. Maybe it would just be better to say that I lived for fornication and I just didn't know any better. And yes the fear of the Lord was the beginning of my wisdom. I never was spanked and I was quite the handful. Once I realized that Hell was a reality I calmed way down, stopped sinning, and submitted myself to God. The greatest moment of my life is when I stopped living for me and started to live for others.
All believers are guided by the Holy Spirit, and we obey on one level of another. I pray that Ray is in obedience and not being distracted from what the Holy Spirit is instructing him to do. The Holy Spirit led me to write him and exhort him to be careful and consider the concerns of his brothers and sisters who love him.
so it would be like me saying that you "rage against fairies" in your denial that they exist I do rage against fairies and they do exist...they hit on me all the time. :)"
Biggoted asshole.
"I didn't mean every single Atheist that I speak with but as a generality it appears that way. Maybe it would just be better to say that I lived for fornication and I just didn't know any better."
So you assume that because you were an atheist and you liked pussy, then all atheists are running around fucking everyone. By your wording above, you think that atheists that aren't fucking everything they can are exceptions to the rule. If so, I want to see the data that supports this claim.
"And yes the fear of the Lord was the beginning of my wisdom."
I thought God loved you...why are you so afraid? Oh yeah, gentle Jesus said that if you don't believe what the Bible says (even though there is no evidence for the events in question), you will have to stroke Satan's greasy cock for eternity.
"I never was spanked and I was quite the handful."
Hey, what happens in your bedroom should stay there ;>
"Once I realized that Hell was a reality I calmed way down, stopped sinning, and submitted myself to God."
What is your evidence that Hell is "a reality"? Where is it, where are it's boundaries, and how do you know?
"The greatest moment of my life is when I stopped living for me and started to live for others."
Atheists do this also. You don't need to believe in a god to do good things for other people and not be selfish.
Hitchens, in almost all of his debates, properly defines a humanist morality, which actually makes sense as opposed to a dictated morality without any sense behind it.i)Humanist morality is also a generalization, thus one must define the proper morality and that is Hitchens. So Hitchens doesn't remove a dictated morality, he just moves it from God to Hitchens.
Further, and I am speaking for only myself here, I do not "rage against God", I "rage" against people who claim to know a god exist, and what he demands of us. i) The Christian view of depravity holds that man supresses the truth both actively and passively. You can be a nice little old lady who buys sweets for kids, and teaches at the local public school. If she is not a Christian, she still supresses the truth in unrighteousness even if she hasn't ever engaged in any debate or partook of any protest about God.
I don't have a belief in a god, so it would be like me saying that you "rage against fairies" in your denial that they exist (assuming you don't think they do). The issue involves more ethical, and spiritual implications. You not only hate God, but hate the things of God and those who defend his existence or proclaim his Gospel.
You simply show that when you were an atheist, you were an immoral person. Now, you simply act well because of your fear of a vengeful sky daddy. This is being good, not for goodness' sake, but merely a selfish act of self-preservation.No idea what you're talking about. Christians have awhole theology regarding the nature of becoming sanctified over time,and acting in accordance to God's commans. All of which involve a type of fear of God. I'm sorry, I guess fear is bad for you, then next time your children are going to touch the a burning stove let them touch the stove! They shouldn't fear!
Dan, lame analogy for fearing god, and ys fear is not good. By the way, the hot stove doesn't threaten me with eternal punishment for not worshipping it properly, god does.
>>By the way, the hot stove doesn't threaten me with eternal punishment for not worshipping it properly, god does.
Actually it sounds like you are either mistaking Christianity for other religions or were mislead by someone. The parachute post explains that point well.
Nothing you do will save you...
The false religions out there have a completely different gospel the Christianity. As a result they bring their filthy rags and present them to God thinking they are working their way to God. We have been made clean by the word. The false religions make themselves clean.
A squirrel? No your opinions are not "one sided" at all.
I think you need to go back and listen to it again, but this time with critical thinking skills sharpened and ready. Start with point of view, Specifically, "How am I looking at this situation? Is there another way to look at it that I should consider? What exactly am I focused on? And how am I seeing it? Is my view the only reasonable view? What does my point of view ignore? Have you ever considered the way others view this? Which of these possible viewpoints makes the most sense given the situation? Am I having difficulty looking at this situation from a viewpoint with which I disagree? What is the point of view of the author of this story? Do I study viewpoints that challenge my personal beliefs?"
Friel shows how closed-minded and servile religious types are, that they can't even understand the notion of being free, not to sin (as they like to make this false argument), but to live their lives as *they* see proper. People can live moral good lives w/o god: it's that simple. Do people do bad things? Yes, with and without god! Smart people learn respect the autonomy of others just as they want their autonomy to be respected, and they remedy this. Christians in the end are weak people: left to their own devices they *would* abuse their autonomy, but not everyone is like that.
>> People can live moral good lives w/o god: it's that simple.
"By arguing for a belief in or knowledge of morality without providing a justification for morality, atheists confuse moral epistemology (moral knowledge) with moral ontology (foundation existence of morality)." bit.ly/assmorals
>>Smart people learn respect the autonomy of others just as they want their autonomy to be respected, and they remedy this.
How do you know your "autonomous" reasoning is valid? Could you be wrong about everything you claim to know?
"The supernatural is the presupposition of the intelligibility of the natural.” is the claim. In other words, without God you would lose the preconditions for the intelligibility you require to posit your hypotheticals in science, logic, reason, morality, etc.
This is exposed by asking you a very simple question. How do you know your reasoning is valid without God, or being viciously circular?
It's so strange to me. People who are so enslaved to pride, sin, and a false autonomy, insist that they are free.
ReplyDeleteOne serves either God or Satan. Any idea of a spiritual Switzerland is most pleasing to Satan as he has built his kingdom on it. That false autonomy is what cast Satan out of hell and his children are chips off the old block, and most don't even know it.
I'd just like to add, Todd Friel does not help things with his silly tactics.
I listen to his show, and appreciate it most of the time, but he really blows it sometimes too.
Who doesn't?
This whole battling atheists thing gets old. I know we should give answer and oppose the neo-atheist offensive, but it seems that many are making tactical errors. Like Ray Comfort. I call him a brother, but battling atheists?
I don't think it is his gig.
I chuckled all thru it. Christopher Hitchens busted Todd Friel's chops all thru the interview. It was terrific!
ReplyDeleteRight on Dan for posting it!
Todd Friel was right, christianity is just a fantasy game.
ReplyDeleteThe main reason why I posted this is what Todd (C.H. Spurgeon) said at the very end. The reason why Atheists rage against God is because they want to live their own autonomous way, to live anyway they want to, without being accountable to our Creator. That to me is the crust of the Atheists out there that I have talked to and the reason why I didn't humble to God for 22 years of my own life. I lived for and loved sin, and I didn't want to stop for anyone. Of course they will deny this if it is brought up so that it was very refreshing that Hitchens candidly admitted to that point.
ReplyDeleteHow can you debunk something when you have clearly demonstrated you do not even know what it means? How can atheists rage against something they do not accept as true. You fail before you even get to the track, never mind getting out of the gate.
DeleteDani'El,
ReplyDeleteLike Ray Comfort. I call him a brother, but battling atheists?
I don't think it is his gig.If you truly care for the lost and you love your neighbor then what else are we to do with Atheists in spiritual warfare? A side benefit, as you know, they bring the crowds and ask great challenging questions to hone our witnessing skills and help solidify our(my) beliefs. I would be very misinformed without the Atheists that I know. They challenge my intellect, which I enjoy. They are the ultimate anti-yes men, which I respect far more. Without Atheists, I wouldn't defend God and the Bible as much as I do. I wouldn't see a read need to fight very hard. They are, hands down, a formidable opponent. Without Atheists I wouldn't know what to say to people face to face when asked the tough questions that we addressed the night before in the blogosphere. Atheists made me think, very hard, for my beliefs. I am grateful for knowing so many Atheists. Only a true friend will tell a friend that they stink. Sometimes I stink and I need to hear that. I consider them friends. I love Atheists.
Also, I Love Ray obviously. I did the very moment I heard him speak against the modern churches and his Open Air preaching. He had me at "Would you consider yourself...?" God has done so many great things through that man throughout the years that I have known him. I see great fruit, don't you? I love also, Ray's salesmanship and boldness to open air preach to the masses here in the US since the 70's! He did it all alone for many years, out of the lime light, and for no pay. Even though they mock him, I love that guys moxie. Ray is a wonderful and caring man and I consider it an honor to know him.
I just did a book review of a very tired, boring, and sad book from John. If you want to read how a book should be written then read Ray's first book WOTM. I laughed, I cried and was actually touched. I loved it so much I purchased a case (100) of them. I give them out to everyone I feel that would benefit from it. A standing offer to everyone is, if anyone wishes to have a free copy of his book "Way of the Master" I will send them one at no charge. All I ask is for a promise to read it.
Any takers?
Fuck no nutballs, nobody wants your silly book of even more fairy tales by Ray "The Banana man" Comfort. You think you are god's very own crusader, but have you not yet realized that evangelically proselytizing your message is an extremely rude way to be a member of society? Have you not considered that most people are rational, functioning people who can think for themselves and that what you are doing is not "teaching people" but in fact harassing them? If gods message is so freaking good, wouldn't people be able to come to it on their own without you? And finally, "debunking atheists" is itself a logical fallacy, as the burden of proof for the existence of god is on you. You can't "debunk" a negative, that's like saying "Debunking Disbelief in Santa Claus" or "Debunking Disbelief in Cosmic Purple Space Ferrets"
Delete>>You think you are god's very own crusader, but have you not yet realized that evangelically proselytizing your message is an extremely rude way to be a member of society?
DeleteTo those to whom the gospel message is uncomfortable, it is received quite differently, I agree. When Jesus preached in His hometown at first they were amazed at His Words, but by the end of His sermon they tried to throw Him off a cliff (Luke 4: 14-30)
The truth sometimes moves people to want to throw us off cliffs, but if we withhold the truth due to the reaction we might receive, then we are not teaching like our Lord.
>>If gods message is so freaking good, wouldn't people be able to come to it on their own without you?
Doesn't matter, they do go to God when called to do so. It certainly is not like God is failing in any way, and somehow He needs us, because He doesn't. That is a ridiculous viewpoint. No, my argument is not intended to be convincing, I am merely commanded to speak the truth, defend it, and expose falsehoods. 'Convincing' is out of my hands.
>>And finally, "debunking atheists" is itself a logical fallacy, as the burden of proof for the existence of god is on you.
But proof presupposes the absoluteness of truth. One cannot prove a falsehood. It also must be known, because one cannot prove what one does not know. It also must be logical because without logic, no proof could make sense.
So what does a belief in truth, knowledge, and logic assume? They assume God.
>> You can't "debunk" a negative
Sure you can silly. If you were to say that you don't have a blue ball in your pocket, and I see the bulge and reach in and grab it to show you, I have showed you that I "debunked your negative claim". Try to keep up.
>> that's like saying "Debunking Disbelief in Santa Claus"
I can certainly can, but it is the Atheists with a Santa Syndrome. Thanks for revealing that though.
>>or "Debunking Disbelief in Cosmic Purple Space Ferrets"
Is THAT your worldview? It's certainly debunkable. If it is I will show you, but if this is a hypothetical worldview then I can introduce hypothetical worldviews that get's us nowhere. You wish to waste time? Now, how do you know your reasoning is valid?
Delete"But proof presupposes the absoluteness of truth. One cannot prove a falsehood. It also must be known, because one cannot prove what one does not know. It also must be logical because without logic, no proof could make sense.
So what does a belief in truth, knowledge, and logic assume? They assume God."
This is so filled with circular logic that all I can picture in my head is you running around in a circle smelling your own farts like a cat with it's tail. If this is the backwards logic that you use to delude yourself in the existence of god, by all means use it.
I realize I may be actively trying to be offensive in my posts, but that is only in defense to your proselytizing and actively hateful stance towards your atheist brothers and sisters. Why must you try to convert everyone to your world view? I may think your views silly, but I would defend to the death your right to believe them. It is perfectly alright to believe what you want in your public life and also in the privacy of your own home, you are simply practicing your autonomy. But your posts are absolutely talking about acts that cross the line, where you are actively stepping on other people's autonomy in a quest to advance your own beliefs. In exactly the same way that the muslim world believes themselves to be god's chosen people and if they could, would actively impose Islam on the world, you are proselytizing a form of fundamentalism that encroaches onto public policy and governing. This is directly attacking other people's autonomy. It is one thing to inform the public that your doors are open to teach anyone that may want to learn the way of your god, but what you are doing is an entirely different story. The definition of the word "Christian" is directly "christ-like". Even if you do believe that your atheist neighbors are going to hell, why rage at them with such ferocity when instead you could be making a much greater difference by "killing them with kindness" as they say. Set a good example for people on what it means to be a Christian, and that would change magnitudes of orders more times the number of converts you could make.
I truly wish that we could just sit down like 2 normal adults and have a beer (or any beverage) together, and for just that short time forget the hatred that burns in you against atheists and my preconceptions of your intelligence that cause us such friction.
>>This is so filled with circular logic that all I can picture in my head is you running around in a circle smelling your own farts like a cat with it's tail.
DeleteOK, to avoid a relativist fallacy, this is why asked how do you know your reasoning is valid? Because you need to avoid being a hypocrite and just say that you reason that your reasoning is valid, in a viciously circular manner.
>>If this is the backwards logic that you use to delude yourself in the existence of god, by all means use it.
So, show us all how it is done, how do you know your reasoning is valid, without God or being viciously circular?
>>I realize I may be actively trying to be offensive in my posts, but that is only in defense to your proselytizing and actively hateful stance towards your atheist brothers and sisters.
Hateful? I love you, but love is not coddling. Perfect love is a constant confronter because it takes far more love to confront then to ignore the situation. Matthew 22:39, Leviticus 19:17-18 reveals that. You're confusing hate/animosity with love here, and that is quite disturbing. I have no clue if you have children but we correct out of love, not hate. We guide. Hebrews 12 makes that point clear.
>>Why must you try to convert everyone to your world view?
Sure, I seek to see you to repent from the God you know exists. I'm sure that if an "atheist" wanted to, they could surrender to God, confess and repent of their sins, put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ, and receive a full pardon by God. They just don't want to. Takes us right back to Proverbs 14:2, doesn't it.
>> But your posts are absolutely talking about acts that cross the line, where you are actively stepping on other people's autonomy in a quest to advance your own beliefs.
So, you're intolerant of of my intolerance?
>>This is directly attacking other people's autonomy.
But you're not, by trying to do that to others here, with your own autonomy? Who are you trying to convince, me or you?
>>Even if you do believe that your atheist neighbors are going to hell, why rage at them with such ferocity when instead you could be making a much greater difference by "killing them with kindness" as they say.
Not that is disagree, but how do you know your reasoning about that is valid, again? How are you absolutely certain that your "method" is better?
>>Set a good example for people on what it means to be a Christian, and that would change magnitudes of orders more times the number of converts you could make.
You believe I can convert people? Wow. If that were the case there would be no such thing as an Atheist. Do not be confused, my argument is not intended to be convincing, I am merely commanded to speak the truth, defend it, and expose falsehoods. 'Convincing' is out of my hands.
>>I truly wish that we could just sit down like 2 normal adults and have a beer (or any beverage) together, and for just that short time forget the hatred that burns in you against atheists and my preconceptions of your intelligence that cause us such friction.
I have in fact said that very same thing, that we would be in Heaven having a cool drink laughing about these times together. Just understand that God does not send people to Hell for denying what they do not know, but for sin against the God that they do know. Hell's gates will be locked from the inside, as CS Lewis pointed out.
Because you have railed against God, and not have God's will be done, i.e. repent and placing your entire trust in Jesus Christ for your Salvation with your heart, mind, and soul, then God will have your will be done and that is separation from Him. We call it despair.
Until then, this HERE would be a gimps of how it would be at a BBQ together. :)
Firstly, the burden of proof for christian claims have not been met. There is zero proof that claims made in the bible are true, and actual reason to believe that many are not. But yet, I still would not assert that I am sure of the non-existence of a deity. We can argue about reasoning and relativistic fallacies all day long, but there is no conjecture, argument, logical reasoning, etc that could ever prove god without actual tangible evidence. If you presuppose that god would not show evidence due to his very nature, you are dismissing logic to support flawed reasoning.
DeleteAre you asserting here that the stance you take on this website and your evangelism towards people who don't believe the same way as you, is what you consider love? I applaud you for being a bible literalist and not a wishy washy buffet christian, but again as I said, preaching to people the way you do seems harmful to the goal that you purport to have. People learn better through emulation than from people shoving in their face what to believe. If you have had atheists try to actively deconvert you, than I am truly sorry, but as a whole, most atheists don't give a shit what anyone thinks until it starts to trample on our rights and autonomy. When public political discourse is dictated by how christian you are and when atheists are the most under represented minority in political positions, with >%5 of the population atheists while there are zero atheists in congress, is disturbing.
I never asserted that my world view was more correct than your own. I was simply trying to point out the fact that a large percentage of atheists are in fact apostate. They once did see the world through a religious lens, but were not able to assimilate their beliefs with reality. Nothing that you have said or can say are things that we haven't heard before when we were "religious". Now the usual answer I get to that is, that I must not have been looking for god hard enough or my heart just wasn't open to him. I personally tried uncountable times to "Hear Him" and sought his guidance in every action of my life. When someone tries something over, and over, and over again, and it still isn't working for them yet they keep expecting different results, it is the definition of insanity. To try again and again with the same result expecting something different to happen.. For us, we see it as the blame is not on us, but that the failing is on the part of whatever "deity" we believed we were trying to contact. If he existed and wanted us to believe in him, for an omnipotent all powerful being he sure did a crappy job of it. Isn't a relationship supposed to be two-way?
>Sure, I seek to see you to repent from the God you know exists. I'm sure that if an "atheist" wanted to, they could surrender to God, confess and repent of their sins, put their faith and trust in Jesus Christ, and receive a full pardon by God. They just don't want to.
DeleteHere you are making the ultimate mistake that you continuously accuse other people of doing, and that is that you believe you hold some piece of knowledge that only christians have access to and atheists don't. Who exactly are you to claim that all atheists really do believe in god and just that we want to actively disobey him? How incredibly cocky and naive that is to frame everyone elses experience from your own, as if other people aren't capable of living separate experiences from yours. I will repeat that I am apostate. I heard, read, and lived all of the same things you are claiming to know, and came to the conclusion that I didn't believe a word of it. But the real nail in the coffin for me was that even IF all of it were true, and there was absolute proof of god, I obviously would not deny something that I could tangibly prove, but I would still think the whole thing horrendous and call into question all of the atrocities that encompass the situation. I most certainly would rather be in hell than, as Hitchen's dubs it, the "celestial dictatorship" of heaven. I refuse to grovel and subject myself to the whims of what can only be described as a sadistic child
I wish I could say that I enjoyed our dialogue, but your cockiness, combativeness and overall lack of empathy and concern for anything else than your evangelism has left a horrendous taste in my mouth that leads me to conclude that I most certainly will not be returning to this pit.
May the force be with you
>>Firstly, the burden of proof for christian claims have not been met.
DeleteBy who's authority? Yours? Bwahhahaha. You sir have the very least, have the burden of a rebuttal. (bit.ly/BoProof)
>>There is zero proof that claims made in the bible are true, and actual reason to believe that many are not.
You're in denial then. At least we got that out there.
>>But yet, I still would not assert that I am sure of the non-existence of a deity.
Great, so you're agnostic then.
>>...that could ever prove [God] without actual tangible evidence.
First, proof presupposes the absoluteness of truth. One cannot prove a falsehood. It also must be known, because one cannot prove what one does not know. It also must be logical because without logic, no proof could make sense.
So what does a belief in truth, knowledge, and logic assume? They assume God. and Yes there is pleny of evidence for the existence of God. We even say that all evidence is evidence of God, even one's very ability to reason about evidence.
>>preaching to people the way you do seems harmful to the goal that you purport to have.
I appreciate your vote of confidence but I certainly cannot take people away from God. He calls who He calls, and they follow. The ones that do not wish to follow, for whatever reason, will not, because God allows them to have their will be done. Isn't that a great God. (Rhetorical, of course.)
>>People learn better through emulation than from people shoving in their face what to believe.
How do you KNOW this? Could you be wrong?
>>When public political discourse is dictated by how christian you are and when atheists are the most under represented minority in political positions, with >%5 of the population atheists while there are zero atheists in congress, is disturbing.
Again, you're failing to see that it is BECAUSE of the Christians, you have your freedoms.
“The left argues that the Pledge of Allegiance somehow discriminates against the godless, but fails to show evidence of said discrimination,” said the EagleRising.com blog. “What they miss is that the affirmation of God in our society is what protects the unbeliever from discrimination. If there are no moral absolutes attributable to a Righteous and Holy God, then every man should be free to do what is right in their own mind.
This is what the left argues for without considering the consequences – without an absolute moral law one cannot judge evil. If one cannot judge evil by an absolute code, then it is left to the will of the majority to decide what is right and what is wrong. Once that happens, the rights of the minority no longer exist.”
[to be cont'd]
[cont'd]
Delete>>They once did see the world through a religious lens, but were not able to assimilate their beliefs with reality.
There is no such a thing as an "ex-Christian". "You cannot reason out of Christianity if Jesus is Lord of your reasoning." ~Sye Ten Bruggencate
>>If he existed and wanted us to believe in him, for an omnipotent all powerful being he sure did a crappy job of it.
Oh boo hoo hoo, and you don't take any blame? Hogwash! As God promised, and He cannot lie. He will not turn away anyone that actually seeks Christ. You could be saved in a few seconds, you choose not to.
"The sacrifice pleasing to God is a broken spirit. God, You will not despise a broken and humbled heart." ~Psalm 51:17
>>Isn't a relationship supposed to be two-way?
Amen. You place your entire trust in Jesus Christ for your Salvation with your heart, mind, and soul, and God saves you from the deserved punishment and sanctifies you in the process. He saves you from your reasoning now. It's not just for the next life.
>>Who exactly are you to claim that all atheists really do believe in god and just that we want to actively disobey him?
It's not my claim, it's God's (Romans 1:18-23)
>>I heard, read, and lived all of the same things you are claiming to know, and came to the conclusion that I didn't believe a word of it.
PROOF that you are not, and never were, a Christian. (1 John 2:19) Again, that is great news. There is still time to ACTUALLY be a Christian.
>>...but I would still think the whole thing horrendous and call into question all of the atrocities that encompass the situation.
Oops, before we address that, you have made some assumptions of your point that you will have to defend before the claim is even valid. Like Razi Zacharias said, you have just invoked a moral law, or standard in raising that claim that your worldview cannot account for. That is your presupposition of the claim, is it not? Otherwise, the claim self destructs.
>> your evangelism has left a horrendous taste in my mouth that leads me to conclude that I most certainly will not be returning to this pit.
Aww, you think we're fighting and I think we're finally communicating.
>>May the force be with you
These aren't the droids you're looking for. :)
Dan, maybe you misread me.
ReplyDeleteAs you know, I spend quite a bit of time with Atheists as well.
I just think that Ray's forte is the evangelical method he has developed and sometimes I think the fight with the neo-Atheists takes on a personal tone with him, so that the gospel takes a back seat to arguments about evolution etc.
There are clear arguments against atheism in the bible, and it should be made, but if you read Ray's blog, it's become a blur of repetitive slander and innuendo to the point that I think that all that is being achieved is the heaping of more wrath on our "friends".
The bible also teaches at some point we are to shake the dust from our feet, and not cast our pearls before swine, etc.
This is why I am among the growing voices of criticism for Ray's focus on Atheism.
I don't know. I trust that Ray is being led by the Holy Spirit, but I would rather see him spending more time training evangelists than banging his head on rock hard hearts.
Get my point?
I'd be very interested to hear from Ray on what kind of fruit he is bearing from is efforts. Before he got so popular, he used to answer my emails, now he does not respond.
I still give whole hearted support for Ray's ministry and the WOTM method, all glory to the Master who taught it to Ray.
Like myself, Ray is a surfing Jew and open air preacher, so I have a deep connection to him. I just think his talents are being aimed in the wrong direction.
Added point-
ReplyDeleteWhen Ray switched to that other blog, I forget what it was called, he was listed as a "Anti-Atheism creationist" and not one mention of his faith was to be found on his profile.
Not one word about Jesus Christ.
Then alarms went off in my heart.
Dani'El,
ReplyDeleteGet my point?I do now. Very valid to boot. I did email him when I heard the bitterness in his voice, in a radio interview, against the "Banana" Atheists. I think he grumbled that they "made a monkey out of him" I expressed to him to embrace it and own it. To laugh with them. That it was a beautiful thing to thrust him into the spotlight. (Negative press is still press, none the less. Any press at all gets the name out there. So anyone in Public Relations would tell you that this is a positive)
I sent the Banana picture of me and he didn't respond but he did give that new video so I will continue to believe that he heard my advice.
I had not seen that nanner photo. lol!
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I'm on a roll. Going on day 4 in a row of open air preaching here in Sodom.
The stage fright is waning.
U pray 4 me. I pray for U.
Shalom,
Dani' El
"The reason why Atheists rage against God is because they want to live their own autonomous way, to live anyway they want to, without being accountable to our Creator. That to me is the crust of the Atheists out there that I have talked to and the reason why I didn't humble to God for 22 years of my own life. I lived for and loved sin, and I didn't want to stop for anyone. Of course they will deny this if it is brought up so that it was very refreshing that Hitchens candidly admitted to that point."
ReplyDeleteDan,
Please do not generalize based on what Hitchens says, and I think you missed his point. Hitchens, in almost all of his debates, properly defines a humanist morality, which actually makes sense as opposed to a dictated morality without any sense behind it. Further, and I am speaking for only myself here, I do not "rage against God", I "rage" against people who claim to know a god exist, and what he demands of us. That is it. I don't have a belief in a god, so it would be like me saying that you "rage against fairies" in your denial that they exist (assuming you don't think they do). Further, for you to say that I am an atheist so that I can do whatever I want is quite a large judgement for a "Christian", isn't it? You simply show that when you were an atheist, you were an immoral person. Now, you simply act well because of your fear of a vengeful sky daddy. This is being good, not for goodness' sake, but merely a selfish act of self-preservation.
hoo boy, I misjudged this blog. I didn't realize it was just another group of people who have a hard time discerning fantasy from reality. Good luck fellas I'm out.
ReplyDeleteAs I suspected; any good points Hitchens makes are ignored and only the one point at the very end which corresponds to your views on athiests is grabbed onto and then generalized to every atheist.
ReplyDeleteReynold, this is at the Stan level of wackiness can you recommend any intelligent theist blogs?
ReplyDeleteWhere people don't consider atheists to be "People who are so enslaved to pride, sin, and a false autonomy, insist that they are free"?
Or this gem: "The reason why Atheists rage against God is because they want to live their own autonomous way, to live anyway they want to, without being accountable to our Creator. That to me is the crust of the Atheists out there that I have talked to and the reason why I didn't humble to God for 22 years of my own life. I lived for and loved sin, and I didn't want to stop for anyone"
I'm surprised he didn't claim to have been a satanist priest!
Yowch!
I only responded because the browser was still open, email it to me if you know of one.
I guess SJ likes em lukewarm? lol!
ReplyDeleteMakes sense.
There are clear arguments against atheism in the bibleNo, but the whole thing is a giant assertion regarding the existence of a god, so if you meant assertions where you said arguments, your statement is accurate. It's also funny. Thanks, Captain Obvious.
ReplyDeleteI don't know. I trust that Ray is being led by the Holy Spirit, but I would rather see him spending more time training evangelists than banging his head on rock hard hearts.Humorous, to the last.
I don't know.This sentence should probably have followed that which it precedes.
I trust that Ray is being led by the Holy Spirit, but..."I trust ... the Holy Spirit, but" (emphasis mine)?! If you truly trust that he is being led by the invisiblest part of your god, then why qualify that trust with "but"?
...I would rather see him spending more time training evangelists than banging his head on rock hard hearts.Your sentiment is duly noted and appreciated, but it does not follow from an explicit trust in the one from whom Ray claims to receive instruction... or are you saying you wish god would lead him along a different path? Do you quarrel with god, then? Do you disagree with god's methods?
You True Christians™ are too funny. You're only willing to call someone out as being a False Convert™ after they've exhibited some inexcusable (in your minds) anti-Christian behavior -- if Ray is in danger of being a False Convert™, then call him out on it! If Dan is concerned that El Dani may be a deluded nutcase for predicting the demise of much of California, then call him out on it!
...or does your god have you all working from different playbooks?
What's that? You're about to say that god compartmentalizes his "plan"? That's all well and good, but it sure seems that the left hand doesn't know where the right hand is putting its thumb... In any case, such extreme compartmentalization necessarily allows for apparently disparate "interpretations" of theology to coexist, which does not help your mutually exclusive club's case.
I feel a rant coming on, but I'll mute it for now. In the meantime, I recommend you True Christians™ get together and compare notes -- you're on several different pages of several different books, and most of them are non-canonical.
--
Stan
Clos,
ReplyDeleteso it would be like me saying that you "rage against fairies" in your denial that they exist I do rage against fairies and they do exist...they hit on me all the time. :)
I didn't mean every single Atheist that I speak with but as a generality it appears that way. Maybe it would just be better to say that I lived for fornication and I just didn't know any better. And yes the fear of the Lord was the beginning of my wisdom. I never was spanked and I was quite the handful. Once I realized that Hell was a reality I calmed way down, stopped sinning, and submitted myself to God. The greatest moment of my life is when I stopped living for me and started to live for others.
You mean that was not a rant, Stan?
ReplyDelete:)
I guess by your normal standards, that's true.
All believers are guided by the Holy Spirit, and we obey on one level of another.
I pray that Ray is in obedience and not being distracted from what the Holy Spirit is instructing him to do.
The Holy Spirit led me to write him and exhort him to be careful and consider the concerns of his brothers and sisters who love him.
You would make quite a lawyer, Stan.
"Clos,
ReplyDeleteso it would be like me saying that you "rage against fairies" in your denial that they exist I do rage against fairies and they do exist...they hit on me all the time. :)"
Biggoted asshole.
"I didn't mean every single Atheist that I speak with but as a generality it appears that way. Maybe it would just be better to say that I lived for fornication and I just didn't know any better."
So you assume that because you were an atheist and you liked pussy, then all atheists are running around fucking everyone. By your wording above, you think that atheists that aren't fucking everything they can are exceptions to the rule. If so, I want to see the data that supports this claim.
"And yes the fear of the Lord was the beginning of my wisdom."
I thought God loved you...why are you so afraid? Oh yeah, gentle Jesus said that if you don't believe what the Bible says (even though there is no evidence for the events in question), you will have to stroke Satan's greasy cock for eternity.
"I never was spanked and I was quite the handful."
Hey, what happens in your bedroom should stay there ;>
"Once I realized that Hell was a reality I calmed way down, stopped sinning, and submitted myself to God."
What is your evidence that Hell is "a reality"? Where is it, where are it's boundaries, and how do you know?
"The greatest moment of my life is when I stopped living for me and started to live for others."
Atheists do this also. You don't need to believe in a god to do good things for other people and not be selfish.
Hitchens in this video is a great example of a 'Debunking Atheist'.
ReplyDeleteGood job Dan! More of the same please.
Andrew,
ReplyDeleteYou are a child.
Andrew,
ReplyDeleteYou are a child.
...so if we only had his level of faith...
--
Stan
Hitchens, in almost all of his debates, properly defines a humanist morality, which actually makes sense as opposed to a dictated morality without any sense behind it.i)Humanist morality is also a generalization, thus one must define the proper morality and that is Hitchens. So Hitchens doesn't remove a dictated morality, he just moves it from God to Hitchens.
ReplyDeleteFurther, and I am speaking for only myself here, I do not "rage against God", I "rage" against people who claim to know a god exist, and what he demands of us. i) The Christian view of depravity holds that man supresses the truth both actively and passively. You can be a nice little old lady who buys sweets for kids, and teaches at the local public school. If she is not a Christian, she still supresses the truth in unrighteousness even if she hasn't ever engaged in any debate or partook of any protest about God.
I don't have a belief in a god, so it would be like me saying that you "rage against fairies" in your denial that they exist (assuming you don't think they do). The issue involves more ethical, and spiritual implications. You not only hate God, but hate the things of God and those who defend his existence or proclaim his Gospel.
You simply show that when you were an atheist, you were an immoral person. Now, you simply act well because of your fear of a vengeful sky daddy. This is being good, not for goodness' sake, but merely a selfish act of self-preservation.No idea what you're talking about. Christians have awhole theology regarding the nature of becoming sanctified over time,and acting in accordance to God's commans. All of which involve a type of fear of God. I'm sorry, I guess fear is bad for you, then next time your children are going to touch the a burning stove let them touch the stove! They shouldn't fear!
Dan,
ReplyDeletelame analogy for fearing god, and ys fear is not good. By the way, the hot stove doesn't threaten me with eternal punishment for not worshipping it properly, god does.
Ghynes6237,
ReplyDelete>>By the way, the hot stove doesn't threaten me with eternal punishment for not worshipping it properly, god does.
Actually it sounds like you are either mistaking Christianity for other religions or were mislead by someone. The parachute post explains that point well.
Nothing you do will save you...
The false religions out there have a completely different gospel the Christianity. As a result they bring their filthy rags and present them to God thinking they are working their way to God. We have been made clean by the word. The false religions make themselves clean.
Hitchens wasted his time on this pinhead. This is the most one-sided smack down I've ever heard. It's like Hitchens was conversing with a squirrel.
ReplyDeleteA squirrel? No your opinions are not "one sided" at all.
DeleteI think you need to go back and listen to it again, but this time with critical thinking skills sharpened and ready. Start with point of view, Specifically, "How am I looking at this situation? Is there another way to look at it that I should consider? What exactly am I focused on? And how am I seeing it? Is my view the only reasonable view? What does my point of view ignore? Have you ever considered the way others view this? Which of these possible viewpoints makes the most sense given the situation? Am I having difficulty looking at this situation from a viewpoint with which I disagree? What is the point of view of the author of this story? Do I study viewpoints that challenge my personal beliefs?"
Friel shows how closed-minded and servile religious types are, that they can't even understand the notion of being free, not to sin (as they like to make this false argument), but to live their lives as *they* see proper. People can live moral good lives w/o god: it's that simple. Do people do bad things? Yes, with and without god! Smart people learn respect the autonomy of others just as they want their autonomy to be respected, and they remedy this. Christians in the end are weak people: left to their own devices they *would* abuse their autonomy, but not everyone is like that.
ReplyDelete>> People can live moral good lives w/o god: it's that simple.
Delete"By arguing for a belief in or knowledge of morality without providing a justification for morality, atheists confuse moral epistemology (moral knowledge) with moral ontology (foundation existence of morality)." bit.ly/assmorals
>>Smart people learn respect the autonomy of others just as they want their autonomy to be respected, and they remedy this.
How do you know your "autonomous" reasoning is valid? Could you be wrong about everything you claim to know?
"The supernatural is the presupposition of the intelligibility of the natural.” is the claim. In other words, without God you would lose the preconditions for the intelligibility you require to posit your hypotheticals in science, logic, reason, morality, etc.
This is exposed by asking you a very simple question. How do you know your reasoning is valid without God, or being viciously circular?