The History channel had a very interesting program about Einstein last night that shed some light on the man. I remembered Ray doing a section on Einstein, in the third season of the Way of the Master series, so I though I would share. We all should heed to the words of this very intelligent man, we should listen to Einstein also.
It's quite true tht he wasn't an atheist. He wasn't a christian either. His beliefs were complex, to say the least. But your beliefs, my beliefs, and even Einstein's beliefs are irrelevant to the matter. The real question is whether we have any actual evidence. Since the biblical description is that of a meddler, and we do not actually see any supernatural meddling, if there is a god, the being is not likely to be described by the bible.
ReplyDeletePvb,
ReplyDeleteI see God's intervention and sovereign control everyday.
Dan-
Ever think of changing the name of your blog to "Debunking Atheism"?
Just an idea.
I'm not sure what Dan (or his new best friend, Dan' iel) seeks to accomplish with this post -- clearly, Einstein was at most a weak atheist or a deist, but more likely somewhere in between, hovering very close to agnostic.
ReplyDeleteI was curious as to the actual statement made by Einstein in which "[God, the world]" appeared in lieu of whatever he had actually said -- try as I might, I have not found the extended quote and/or its fuller context, so that the legitimacy of this editorial insertion can be ascertained.
Perhaps one of the more revealing statements made by Einstein is the following:
I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science.
This statement clearly demonstrates the fact that Einstein was no theist, and as I mentioned, that he falls somewhere between weak atheist and deist. What is likely lost on both Da' niel and Dan is the last sentence (which clearly pertains to Quantum Mechanics):
I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science.
Remember, Einstein never accepted Quantum Theory -- he opposed things like Uncertainty, Tunneling, Zero-point energy, etc. Despite his stubborn refusal to accept it, however, he recognized that his own theories (General and Special Relativity) had cast a giant shadow of doubt over the notion of causality. Quantum Theory took this a huge step further, and shows us that causality is indeed a counter-intuitively false requirement.
Anyway, as I began, I really don't get why Dan or D' aniel are interested in Einstein's beliefs, and I really don't think they'll get much in the way of an argument, except the sort I and Pvblivs have offered thus far.
No, Einstein wasn't an atheist -- at least not a so-called "new atheist" -- and no, he wasn't a Christian. His religious views fall somewhere between weak Atheism on the one side, and Deism on the other. Insofar as he proclaimed his disdain for being quoted by atheists, he never denounced Atheism, per se -- he merely distanced himself from its overly vocal members, and even then only in the mildest fashion:
What separates me from most so-called atheists is a feeling of utter humility toward the unattainable secrets of the harmony of the cosmos
If that's all that separates him, then he is an atheist, in his own terms. I'll certainly concede that he is probably not a bona fide atheist, but this statement implies that his views are closer to Atheism than Dan or Danie' l would like to admit.
--
Stan
Dani' El,
ReplyDeleteIf I named it "Atheism" they would come back with many counters, as they have for thinking it was indeed 'atheism.'
"Atheism is not an organized set of beliefs to be debunked like Christianity is."
or
"Of course, presumably you're speaking of debunking atheism...
But then, how does one debunk a lack of belief?"
I am trying to show the individual the flaws in the logic they use while trying to show them the truth about God.
I am debunking atheists, as in a person, not as a religion or belief structure. I am debunking (debating) each individual's personal viewpoints/worldview on this subject on a more personal level.
Pv,
"The real question is whether we have any actual evidence."
I will ditto Dani'El's comment and also say that there is so much evidence out there. Archaeological, scientific and personal testimonies all cohesively pointing to Him. In fact He promised to manifest Himself to you personally (John 14:21), but you will have no choice but to respect His way of doing things and approach Him on His terms for those results, not yours.
I just saw God the other day, at least it was His orchestration of events, to remove all my doubt.(as if I had any, which I do not)
Stan,
ReplyDeleteJust to clarify.
I only met dan on my own blog a couple of weeks ago. I believe dan heard of me on raytractors or rays blog itself.
I know that he is a brother in Messiah Yeshua and little more other than he is zealous as God has made him.
Oh yeah, he lives in Fresno, a sad little place. lol! (just kidding dan)
Dan:
ReplyDeleteNo archcological or scientific evidence points to any god, let alone your particular one. Archeologcally, we can only confirm that people believed in various gods. Science is silent. If there is a god, he is well-hidden from sight.
There are many personal testemonies. But they tend to be interpretations of events.
Dani' El said...
ReplyDeletePvb,
I see God's intervention and sovereign control everyday.
Dan-
Ever think of changing the name of your blog to "Debunking Atheism"?
Just an idea.
What are you going to do, Dani'El, when your prediction of the destruction of San Fran doesn't happen? Are you going to admit that this "sovereign control" is all in your head?
Reynold,
ReplyDeleteDani'El doesn't believe San Fran will be destroyed, he KNOWS it will be destroyed. As such, he will not even contemplate the possibility that he's wrong. We just have to wait and see.
Dan,
"I just saw God the other day,"
Really?
"...at least it was His orchestration of events,"
Oh, I see. You saw a series of events that you attribute to God's influence on the physical world. So you didn't really *see God* at all then. How disappointing.
"to remove all my doubt.(as if I had any, which I do not)"
So this series of events you saw; you believe that this was God acting upon the world to remove all the doubt that you don't have?
Curiouser and curiouser.
I'm really not sure why Einstein's beliefs are important.
ReplyDeleteIn fact, despite the fact that I'm not an atheist, I'm pretty sure an atheist would say exactly the same thing: the belief of a person is not evidence for the existence of God.
Are we supposed to find him more credible because humanity considers him smart? Smartness is not an assurance that the person is wise in all aspects of his/her life. Look to his relationship with his first wife, of you want supporting evidence for that assertion
Einstein was not a Christian or fundamental creationist like you either. So according to you, he's still in hell, he's still less perfect and just as sinful as atheists, right?
ReplyDeletepvb quoth thus- Dani'El doesn't believe San Fran will be destroyed, he KNOWS it will be destroyed. As such, he will not even contemplate the possibility that he's wrong. We just have to wait and see.
ReplyDeleteD- By Jove, I think he's got it!
(Just who is Jove anyway?)
Thanks Pvb. ;)
Einstein was actually a pretty sinful man, who treated his wife and kids like dirt, womanizing etc.
ReplyDeleteBut I don't think that's the point.
In my eyes, some kind of theism, deism,etc is far more sensible than atheism. Yet the militant neo-atheist scientist portray anything but atheism as being utter foolishness, even madness.
When I see the computer animations of the workings of the cell, I am baffled that any biologist can buy Darwin's theory.
It seems to me that esp physicists should be the most reverent of men.
Gee, is Daniel lying? I certainly said nothing of the sort that he claims. I am, however, reminded of the line "it ain't what ya don't know that gets ya; it's what do know that just ain't so." Well, it's looking like Daniel knows a lot of stuff that isn't so.
ReplyDeleteOops,
ReplyDeleteI meant expat, not pvb.
Sorry Pvb.
Slim,
ReplyDelete"Einstein was not a Christian or fundamental creationist like you either. So according to you, he's still in hell, he's still less perfect and just as sinful as atheists, right?"
Very valid point, if he wasn't saved he is in hell. But who are we to say if he was or wasn't? I was not there and he may have prayed to Jesus in private and secretly became born again and never mentioned it publicly. I could only hope that is the truth.
Now Slim, let's work on you before you die in your sins. Like Einstein, I thought you were smart enough not to be fooled by the devil. Keep searching and get humbled before its too late. Student
Tshirt idea:
"Atheists aren't smart enough, the Devil fools them to believe that God doesn't exist"
It's a working process. Hold the emails, I am joking.
t-shirt idea.
ReplyDelete-Member-
Militant Neo-Atheist Shadow Boxing Club of Babylon
:-)
Dani'El,
ReplyDeleteI just got around to checking out your blog and...WOW! While I didn't spend much time reading the comments (I wanted to start from the beginning), I found most of it to be a thoroughly enjoyable read.
Your "Encounters With Satan" series are probably the best thing I've read since the works of Carlos Castaneda.
Regarding your prophecy of the destruction of SF, I didn't really see a concrete date listed. As, I said, I skipped the comments and, at times, skimmed over the posts (except the encounters with satan) so I might have missed it. Do you have an actual date of destruction we should look out for or is your prophecy just an open statement that something bad will happen in SF at some time in the future?
Once again, thanks for the blog. It's a great read and I can't wait for the next encounter with satan. I can only assume your faith is very strong, to draw such attention from such dark forces.
Dan,
I'm interested. Have you ever encountered such a blatant attack such as Dani'El describes on his blog?
Dani'el,
ReplyDelete"D- By Jove, I think he's got it!
(Just who is Jove anyway?)"
Jove was the king of the gods in Roman mythology.
You just appealed to a false God.
There is no way this was a coincidence.
Dan,
ReplyDeleteDid you ban me from your blog?
But who are we to say if [Einstein] was or wasn't [a Christian at the time of his death]? I was not there and he may have prayed to Jesus in private and secretly became born again and never mentioned it publicly.
ReplyDeleteBut isn't the title of this post, "Einstein Was Not An Atheist"?
Doesn't that title assume some knowledge concerning Einstein's thoughts and/or state of being at the time of his death?
If it cannot be known whether or not he was a Christian at the time of his death, then clearly it cannot be known whether or not he was an atheist. Please fix this post's title to reflect the actual truth: Einstein's religious beliefs were personally known to Einstein. If you really must anthropomorphize this to reflect your own beliefs, I'll disagree, but I'll understand. If this were the case, you would change the title as follows:
Einstein's religious beliefs were personally known to Einstein and to god.
Anyway, if we look only at his writings, and ignore his actual mindset, it seems clear that he didn't promote Theism whatsoever -- he implicitly denied it -- and that he didn't deny Atheism altogether -- he merely distanced himself from its more raucous members. That his beliefs probably fell between Atheism and Deism, probably very close to Agnosticism, leaning ever-so-slightly toward Atheism, seems a very fair representation, though I'm perfectly willing to call him a bona fide deist.
So please fix the title.
--
Stan
Froggie,
ReplyDelete"Did you ban me from your blog?"
No, Why do you want to be martyred or something?
Stan,
ReplyDelete"Doesn't that title assume some knowledge concerning Einstein's thoughts and/or state of being at the time of his death?"
Well actually, He explicitly did say he was not an atheist so the title is true. So the request to change the title is denied.
froggie-
ReplyDeleteJove was the king of the gods in Roman mythology.
You just appealed to a false God.
There is no way this was a coincidence.
D- No, it was done in ignorance and I repent of it.
I was quoting, what was it?
Taming of the shrew? Or kiss me kate?
unethical,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your comments.
I have agreed to a deadline of the end of 2009.
Most prophecy does not come with a day and hour. Christ foretold the destruction of the temple without giving a date and it didn't happen for 40 years.
I have good reason to believe it will happen soon and I go into why on the blog that explains some of the dates involved.
I really don't want to drag Dan+T+
into this, so I encourage you to comment or ask questions on my blog.
Shalom,
Dani' El
I understand that Daniel has recently admitted that he was moderating comments on his blog. When combined with his request that questions and comments be posted to his blog, a red flag goes up in my mind. Does he really wish to avoid troubling Dan, as he says? Or does he want the power of the delete button? Furthermore, I see no reason why the questions or comments should be troubling to Dan. However, if they are, I have every reason to believe that Dan can raise his own objection.
ReplyDeleteDani'El,
ReplyDeleteI didn't know I was dragging Dan into anything. I'm just grabbing hold of an opportunity.
I've never felt in tune with a deity so I really don't know what it's like. Here, we have two theists (You and Dan) who both claim to be guided by a higher power and both have blogs where you record some of your experiences. And yet you seem to sometimes experience your faith in a much more direct, sometimes violent, way.
I was just wondering if Dan, being a believer like yourself, ever encountered people seemingly possessed by satan. Is this something all believers encounter or just special ones? If only special people have your type of experiences, is it because you're doing something right? Are you doing something wrong?
My question was directed at Dan, so I kind of have to ask him on his blog. Of course, the point is moot because I think Dan has grown bored with this post and has moved on. He seems to do that just when things start getting good. I guess he wants to end on a high note.
Uct,
ReplyDeleteI didn't really mean it that way.
I was referring more to your questions concerning the prophecy I share and their timeframes.
But concerning my testimonies, I do have a special message that Satan is determined to stop from getting out so my case is far from being the average christian exp.
But anyone, including Dan, who is willing to be on the front lines is sure to have stories to share of opposition, persecution, from Satan and the wicked.
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
One sure way to know that Satan is pleased with you is to have no opposition from him. He is more than happy with all the professing "christians" who are AWOL in the battle.
Pvb,
ReplyDeleteLately I received a few threatening emails and I wanted to see how the moderation button worked but it's too much of a hassle so I turned it off.
Still on the warpath?
UCT,
ReplyDeleteGod says we are to test the fruit to see if it is of His spirit.
Now if Dani'El said that Jesus was coming on a certain date then I would be suspect because of it contradicts the Bible. (Matt. 24:35-36)
We can, however, know the signs of His coming. In the last days, many false christs and false prophets will arise and deceive many (Matt. 24:24). We have seen this fulfillment with the rise of the cults such as Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., and the increase in popularity of the false religions like Islam, Buddhism, the New Age, etc. Also, before the return of Christ, there will be earthquakes (SF qualifies), plagues, famine, and persecutions: (Luke 21:10-12). These predictions are coming true. The time of His return is drawing near.
Zilch and I know of someone, a professing Christian, that thought God revealed to him we would be attacked on or around 9/11/2008 and it has come and gone without even a whisper. He also believed that Bush was the Antichrist and to keep him in power something horrible will happen. The jury is still out on that one and we will have to see, sometime in January, if Bush doesn't pull some stunt. If he does I will start to believe that Bush is the Antichrist. I do believe, however, we are in the last throes of this world. (I feel like Chaney now)
A new earth is coming and the only way I know this is because God's Word has revealed that fact. To start it all, Jesus will come again. (Dan. 7:13; Matt. 24:27; Matt. 24:30; Matt. 24:37-39; Luke 12:40; John 14:1-3; Rev. 1:7)
"Both the Old and New Testaments are filled with promises of the Second Coming of Christ. There are 1,845 references to it in the Old Testament, and a total of seventeen Old Testament books give it prominence. Of the 260 chapters in the entire New Testament, there are 318 references to the Second Coming, or one out of thirty verses. Twenty-three of the twenty-seven New Testament books refer to this great event. Of those four other books, three are single-chapter letters written to individual persons on a particular subject, and the fourth is Galatians, which does imply Christ’s coming again. For every prophecy concerning the First Coming of Christ, there are eight prophecies referring to Christ’s Second Coming." (CARM)
His return will be magnificent, glorious, and even frightening to many - to those who do not know Jesus. The time to get to know Him is in order. Do it today.
Dani'El
"But anyone, including Dan, who is willing to be on the front lines is sure to have stories to share of opposition, persecution, from Satan and the wicked."
As Sarah Palin would say, "You betcha." I have had some very bad and crazy things happen. Everything that has happened pushed me closer to Christ, so it doesn't happen too often. That, after all, isn't the goal of the Devil.
Dan:
ReplyDeleteThose predictions have been coming true throughout all of recorded history. (False christs had to wait until there was an idea of a christ.)
"That, after all, isn't the goal of the Devil."
Suppose it is. The devil (assuming he exists) may, indeed, act in a way designed to give you something to run from as you run into the real trap.
Dan,
ReplyDeleteWith all due respect, Dani'El's prophecy seems a lot more useful. It includes a place and a date range for the destruction of San Francisco. All I have to do is wait until the end of 2009 to see if he's correct.
Your interpretation of biblical prophecy amounts to "Somewhere; sometime bad things will happen and that MIGHT be when Jesus returns."
Apparently, people have been claiming Jesus' return was to be "any day now" for quite some time, now, using the same signs to prove their case. It appears these Christians were just crying "wolf". There's doesn't seem to be a reason to believe that the current claims that Jesus' return is "any day now" are true.
You wrote to Dani'El:
"As Sarah Palin would say, 'You betcha.' I have had some very bad and crazy things happen. Everything that has happened pushed me closer to Christ, so it doesn't happen too often. That, after all, isn't the goal of the Devil."
And yet, satan seems to routinely confront Dani'El. I wonder what the goal is, there. Does Dani'El move further from God every time he's pushed? What's going on, here? Are you two truly experiencing the same phenomenon or is there some other explanation?
Unethical,
ReplyDeleteThere are different members in the body of Christ.
Dan does his job, I do mine, for the same body. Neither is above the other.
And there were 2 key prophecies fulfilled in the last century that are key signs that Christs return is imminent.
1. the Jews back in the Holy Land.
The restoration of the State of Israel in 1 day in 1948.
Isa 66:8 Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion was in labor, She gave birth to her children.
And the restoration of Jerusalem to Jewish control in the 6 day war of 1967.
Luk 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
There are many more signs that are fulfilled in our day, but these 2 are foundational.
Satan is driven by pride and anger, and he shoots himself in the foot all the time by driving the saints to God.
He has made a special case of me as I have a special message to get out. But he has failed as God is with me.
Without God, I would have no chance against Satan.
Dani'El,
ReplyDelete"There are different members in the body of Christ.
Dan does his job, I do mine, for the same body. Neither is above the other."
"Satan is driven by pride and anger, and he shoots himself in the foot all the time by driving the saints to God.
He has made a special case of me as I have a special message to get out. But he has failed as God is with me."
One moment you say neither of you is more important ("above") than the other and the next you say that satan has made a special case of you because you have a special message to get out. These statements seem to conflict. How can they both be true?
UCT,
ReplyDeleteThe brain is key to the whole body, but the brain would die without the stomach to feed it.
The quarterback may get a lot of attention from the defense, but the lineman can make the play that wins the game.
But the whole team can hold up the trophy in victory.
One of the most beautiful things about christianity is that the least are the greatest in God's eyes.
1Co 12:4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:
1Co 12:8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,
1Co 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,
1Co 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
1Co 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
1Co 12:12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body," is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body," is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling?
1Co 12:18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased.
1Co 12:19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
1Co 12:20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body.
1Co 12:21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."
1Co 12:22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary.
1Co 12:23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty,
1Co 12:24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it,
1Co 12:25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another.
1Co 12:26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
1Co 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.
1Co 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.
Yes Dan, atheists are not smart enough to not be fooled by the devil.
ReplyDeleteSo geocentrists and flat earthers are smart because they're not fooled by self alleged scientists either.
Whatever you don't believe is from the devil, what you believe is not fooled to you, it's true, right?
Dani'El,
ReplyDeleteSo you are the quarterback and Dan is the lineman in this play?
Maybe more like a fullback. ;-)
ReplyDeleteI think dan plays both offense and defense. Evangelism and apologetics. lol!
but yeah, Dan is definitely on the line of scrimmage.
ReplyDeleteSlim,
ReplyDelete"atheists are not smart enough to not be fooled by the devil."
Well according to God they believe in a lie. (2 Thessalonians 2:8-12)
"Whatever you don't believe is from the devil, what you believe is not fooled to you, it's true, right?"
Well, I am taking the position that The Bible is truth and the Word of God so it is quite understandable if you don't understand. The Bible claims it and I believe it with Faith that it is truth. So if God's Word says He send you a strong delusion then I have to believe it as truth, because it is.
People are fallible but God is not.