In order for any of that to be of relevance, your god has to exist first.That argument seems to assume that anyone who hears it already believes in your religion's god. If your god doesn't exist, then it doesn't matter if we live up to his or her standards or not.All that matters is acting in such a way that leaves the world slightly better than when we found it.Besides, the OT god isn't a very good being himself. Considerably worse than most people around today, I'd say.
I forgot to add: Can you tell us what the second paragraph was from that article of Micheal Ruse that you quoted from was? I find it odd that you never mentioned the source of the quote until I did.If you actually read the article as opposed to just cribbing it from AIG or somewhere, you'd be able to quote the second paragraph from the article itself.The part you quoted is the same that AIG quotes. You just left out some words that they included.
I think it's telling when the very first page of that comic is something that could have been written to parody Christianity."Then read the Bible and obey it. Find a good church to help you grow, and tell others the good news!"It reads like one of those depressingly uplifting public service announcements or communist propaganda posters, à la:"Freedom through submission", or "Poverty: at least you have nothing to lose!"
Straight from the Ministry of Truth?(Please, Dan and allies, pretty please don't be so dense as to fail to get that reference...)--Stan
Stan,That gets many bonus points for a "Nineteen Eighty-Four" reference and Yes, I get it. Ray is the Big Brother.Brilliant and witty to say the least. I sure wish you were on our team. 'sigh'
Interesting...but I don't believe that god judges harshly on our thoughts. Everyone is meant to have impulses. It's a natural, psychological phenomenon that we can't prevent. To try and prevent any taboo thoughts would turn us all into paralyzed neurotic OCD patients. And, I don't know the exact history, but I would guess that the monks and priests who wrote those laws were already neurotics that wanted to hold everyone to that level. (Wasn't there one ancient priest who castrated himself in the name of Catholicism?)It's more about what you do with those thoughts that should count.
Modern Girl,"Everyone is meant to have impulses. It's a natural, psychological phenomenon that we can't prevent."Sure, but we are not to entertain evil thoughts. When I look at a woman it is perfectly normal to say "what a beautiful woman" or "she is very pretty" but its very different when I sit and "camp out" with impure thoughts called pornography of the mind. Its at that point you are sinning. "To try and prevent any taboo thoughts would turn us all into paralyzed neurotic OCD patients."Was that a joke or do you have any evidence to back such an absurd claim up?
Was that a joke or do you have any evidence to back such an absurd claim up?What's so absurd about it?
And by the way: yes, I'm a good person. No, the Biblical concept of sin doesn't mean a damned thing.The only thing that matters is how we treat each other while we're on this planet. Obedience to an invisible all-loving omniscient wrathful creator being is purpose for those who are too afraid to contemplate the nature of reality.
If I may make an observation here, everyone who is not suicidal considers himself a good person. There are people who play a game claiming they do not consider themselves good. That would the "law to the proud, grace to the humble" group. But that is not humility; it is deception.
Pvblivs wrote But that is not humility; it is deception.That's been my experience as well. The people so willing to claim they're wicked and sinful (et al) also seem ready to demonstrate that they're destined for things the rest of us could only dream of.I find humility in claiming neither to be smart nor gifted nor good nor intelligent.Nor saved.
Pvblivs,"If I may make an observation here, everyone who is not suicidal considers himself a good person."If you think about it real hard though, it is the people that consider themselves to be good, that are actually the ones that are suicidal. Humble is a much better approach to life.
Ah, the ol' 'Are You a Good Person' test.Classic stuff, classic.
Dan, I'm a little stunned at theIf you think about it real hard though, it is the people that consider themselves to be good, that are actually the ones that are suicidal.Yikes. Yes my statement about neurotic OCD patients was based on scientific evidence. When we try to control our natural impulses we inhibit them. When we inhibit a lot of our desires and impulses, we're referred to as a behaviourally inhibited person. Behavioural inhibition leads to high cortisol levels, higher and more consistant heart rates. Essentially, inhibition raises the level of stress in the body. Over time, behavioural inhibition leads to anxiety disorders such as generalized anxiety, panic attacks, and OCD.My statemnt was grounded psychological fact.You're statement about suicidual people being happy, makes no sense.When people are depressed, they experience catatrophizing, cognitive biases, and self-defeating attributional styles. Things that would normally make a person feel good have weakened effects when someone is experiencing depression. Typically, it's hard to see anything as good. It would be an extremely rare case for a person experiencing depression to concurrently experience elevated self-esteem or self-worth. It just doesn't add up.Maybe you should take a course in psychology. I have a Masters degree in it and am currently working on my PhD. Would you like a tutor?
I really appreciate the schooling being done here, ModernGirl - especially via a subject I'm not too familiar with. Your perspective is appreciated...Without being too harsh, Dan seems to be someone who's less concerned with logic than he is pointing out the errors of those who disagree with his worldview.(How was that, Dan?)
MG,Sometime people cannot grasp the simplest of things because they are over thinking it. I said the people that consider themselves to be good, are actually the ones that are suicidal. Now I said this because its the proud unrepentant mind that believes that all is fine.Ray has an analogy: "A little girl was once watching a sheep eat grass and thought how white it looked against the green background. But when it began to snow she thought, "That sheep now looks dirty against the white snow!" It was the same sheep, but with a different background. When we compare ourselves to man's standard we look pretty clean, but when we compare ourselves to the pure snow-white righteousness of God's standard—His Law, we can see ourselves in truth, that we are unclean in His sight. That Law is the holy standard by which humanity will be judged on Judgment Day."That was my point. The Law was made as a mirror for us. In the same way, we don’t realize what a bad state we are in until we look into the "mirror" of the Ten Commandments. Have you stolen, lied, dishonored your mother and father etc. then you broke His Laws, and the penalty is death. So if you believe you are snow white and good and pure then there is no way you can protect yourself from evil. Its suicidal to say the least and evil will stalk you. Evil will attack you without His protection. You cannot fight evil with evil. So, if you seek protection from evil then seek God. Its your only hope!Would you like a tutor to find God?
Interesting points...I'm glad you had the chance to clarify that.No thanks on the tutoring to find God. I do believe in God, just not Heaven or Hell.
MG,"No thanks on the tutoring to find God. I do believe in God, just not Heaven or Hell."So God is a liar? So you don't buy the whole Jesus was the messiah thing?
Dan,When we compare ourselves to man's standard we look pretty clean, but when we compare ourselves to the pure snow-white righteousness of God's standard—His Law, we can see ourselves in truth, that we are unclean in His sight.That analogy raises a question. How do you know that God's standard of morality is superior to that of ours? Could you please explain your reasoning to me?Thanks
MG,You bring up some good points. In terms of Dan's explanation as to why people who consider themselves good being suicidal, I find his reasoning wanting:its the proud unrepentant mind that believes that all is fine.If the mind believes everything is fine, why would the owner of that mind consider suicide? It's senseless. The only bit of sense that could be pulled from that is if you said a proud, unrepentant person died, and realized they were going to Hell because they were actually a sinner. But by that point it would be too late to commit suicide.But that would of course require you to believe in an afterlife, Hell, sin, God's judgment, and God himself first.
Dan,I don't believe in Heaven or Hell because I don't believe in a Christian God. I still believe in a divine and a creator. But I don't believe in the religion of Paul.
Frudo,"How do you know that God's standard of morality is superior to that of ours?" You are starting to question God just as Satan did. God is superior to our morals because of His fruit. He has proven to me in His Word and Flesh that He "get's it" and not only that he created us and we chose not to "get it." He actually had to change my heart on the deep inside level for me to understand Him. I was a slave to sin just like you are now. You cannot resist sin by yourself. The kicker is that you don't even want or feel the need to. You serve a different god. You may claim circular reasoning but my answer is simply because God taught me so. Yes God said that God is superior. I wear that circular argument like a halo. "The only bit of sense that could be pulled from that is if you said a proud, unrepentant person died, and realized they were going to Hell because they were actually a sinner. But by that point it would be too late to commit suicide."You are without excuse. Any atheists that is worth her salt has done the homework and knows God. Denial of said God is common but they have at least contemplated and rejected Him and the plethora of evidence. Yes there is other evidence other then scientific evidence. You personally right now Frodo are committing suicide. When you die and burn it will be by your own hand and no one else. Not even that bus in the street. Seek help.MG,"I don't believe in Heaven or Hell because I don't believe in a Christian God. I still believe in a divine and a creator."The problem with that is that you are suicidal also. By that statement you are breaking the second Commandment. You are making a god to suite yourself. Do you think that God will be forgiving with you still being in your sins? you will burst into flames. I just recently said this:A sinner without being washed of sins cannot be in the presence of God because he/she would burst into flames. (Genesis 32:30) Without the mediator we would perish (1 Timothy 2:5) Many want to see proof of God, but as sinners, they would all perish so God stays away, for their own good. Look what happened to Saul (now Paul) he was blinded by God's holy presence of light. "But I don't believe in the religion of Paul."And that means what? If you run out in the middle of the highway and say I don't believe in trucks it doesn't mean you will not get run over. You are angering God daily for one sinning constantly and second for refusal to acknowledge His gift. Why, because of your pride? I don't get it. Why would you worship anything else other then the Creator. Let me guess you read some gnostic teaching that are keeping you guessing? The Bible is truth and can be trusted. It is supernatural.
Dan,A few things: If you run out in the middle of the highway and say I don't believe in trucks it doesn't mean you will not get run over.This is a tired analogy and fits as badly as a Salvation Army suit. It moves atheists as much as if I were to tell you that you are like a man standing at the side of an empty country road, grabbing the collars of passersby and imploring them not to get hit by all the invisible traffic. Impressed? Of course you're not. So why should we be?Any atheists that is worth her salt has done the homework and knows God.Not that I owe you any explanation, but I was raised in a church going family and had a Christian education. I found it wanting.You personally right now Frodo are committing suicide. When you die and burn it will be by your own hand and no one else.For the second time, this makes no sense. Do you mean my soul is committing suicide? I'd disagree with you, but at least if that's what you meant it would be a sensible explanation. Otherwise, you've yet to explain the connection between being "proud and unrepentant" and a propensity for suicide.You may claim circular reasoning but my answer is simply because God taught me so. Yes God said that God is superior. I wear that circular argument like a halo.Well that was easier than I was expecting. You just saved me a lot of effort.The Christian claim of their exclusive ability to live a moral life is a deceitful pretense. Christian 'morality' is nothing of the sort. If I were to mimic your every act of charity and selfless deed, and lived as blameless a life as Mother Theresa, it of course still wouldn't be enough. In your eyes we would both still be sinners, but I would be without hope of redemption for failing to acknowledge my deplorable turpitude. My deeds wouldn't be enough to save me, because I wouldn't be a believer. Thus the most moral thing a person can do as a Christian is believe in God. They need do nothing more because their souls can be still be saved by trite, conceited appeals for forgiveness. Charity and selflessness are just decoys; nothing but the trappings of the empty chalice that is true Christian morality.
Dan,The suicide analogy is not making any sense. Here's what I'm getting from it:You say that because I don't care about Christian rules I don't repent (that is true.) You say that since I don't repent, I won't go to Heaven, and thus I will go to Hell (if Christians are right, then this is true.) But living out the full extent of my life and dying a natural death and then going to Hell does not equate committing suicide. Even if Christians are right, suicide is the act of taking your own life. Failure to repent at most would take away my afterlife. -------I didn't break the 2nd commandment, anymore than Pual did. Pual was a man, was created and designed his own religion. I'm not going to follow what an anti-semitic, sexist man wrote. I don't believe he was divinely inspired and I don't believe his book is the word of God. I do belive there is a creator. But I don't believe he is accurately depicted in the word of man. Also, "breaking the 2nd commandment" doesn't really affect me, since I don't believe in Christianity.
Apologies for the typo on Paul's name. I'm working with a sticky keyboard.
Modern Girl wrote I do belive there is a creator. But I don't believe he is accurately depicted in the word of man. I knew it! I've found a kindred spirit!/salute
MG and even Wem,"But I don't believe he is accurately depicted in the word of man. How do you get the "accurately depiction" of your god then?
Dan asked How do you get the "accurately depiction" of your god then? I don't have or need one.
Wem,"I don't have or need one."Oh I see now, you believe in a god but you don't care enough to get to know him/her/it?You have no interest into understanding the Creator Himself?You only care about the footprint but not the actual foot making the print?
Dan,"You only care about the footprint but not the actual foot making the print?"Are you saying God's a foot? I know he's got soul and everything, but still...Sorry, I couldn't help myself!
Dan wrote Oh I see now, you believe in a god but you don't care enough to get to know him/her/it?Can you at least TRY to not mischaracterize what I wrote? You're not helping your effort to debunk stuff by doing this...
Dan,It's not that I don't care. But I don't think it's possible to know the true nature of the Divine. I don't loose sleep over trying to figure out. As far as I know, the ants, the birds, the fish, the trees and the wild mushrooms don't either and they seem quite content with their existence.
Mg,"I don't loose sleep over trying to figure out. As far as I know, the ants, the birds, the fish, the trees and the wild mushrooms don't either and they seem quite content with their existence."Luke 12:7 "But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows."My heart will continue to ache for you. I wish I could do more to make a seed grow faster, but I cannot. It is totally up to God to radically change you but please do me a favor and read the Bible cover to cover with a receptive heart and see if God reveals Himself to you. He will if you want Him to. He wants to love you, if you want to be loved that is.
"I tried to think once but nothing happened! Nyuck Nyuck Nyuck."Curly, Three StoogesIn response to Dan:If you think about it real hard though, it is the people that consider themselves to be good, that are actually the ones that are suicidal.Humble is a much better approach to life.What!? I am a good person, work hard, have compassion for my fellow human being, love my family, pay my taxes. I don't believe in your God and I am certainly not suicidal. I think the Curly quote applies to all Christians...they are simply not thinking!
sheesh this god of yours dan seems incredibly harsh i just got the picture of the stepford wives in my head *shudders* i always thought that it was very convinient for god to hold us up to his standards (the argument being he is all powerful and therefore absolutly perfect as opposed to us) i mean if you make everything that absolutly everyone does a sin then people need a escape route and then enter christianity (not that i personally dislike christianity) very convinient indeed. i see it as the same as faith healers even christianity principles are against them for example benny hinn for shame for shame expensive clothes private jets ect and then giving false hope to people tisk tisk if however benny hin heals someone who is genuinly suffering from lepracy or an amputee or cancer (and i mean the poor person is genuinly without a doubt suffering from cancer)i shall absolutly bow before their god but i wouldnt hold my breathe i mean jesus was a healer right? he didnt go parading around in expensive clothes and whatnot did he ask for money? (i dont know actually) and its funny to me how you always say oh we dont need works to be saved in my experience someone who says that doesnt do those works themselves and basically ignores jesus' teachings to give to the poor and help those in need ect.another thing that is interesting to me i found a verse or two that says to give alcahol to poor people ect so that they may forget their troubles and yet alcahol is bassicaly barred from some christians hmm so are poor people allowed to drink or were they looked down upon?
Connie,Hi, please show me the verse that says give the poor alcohol so I can look into it. Was it 1 Timothy 5:23?
aww man I totally know the verse and everything curse my memory grr! I can't seem to remember anything at anymore :(but I did find thishttp://www.relationalconcepts.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=vWBoIHMkYHM%3D&tabid=73was it true that noah was a drunk? and is it true that if you can resist the temptation of drinking to excess you may have one drink? this guy seems to think soQ: Does the Bible promote the drinking of alcohol?A: No. The Bible allows it if you are a strong enough believer to resist the negative consequences–excess drinking, addiction, drunkenness, association with heavy drinkers, causing a brother to stumble, or judging othersQ: Does the Bible forbid the drinking of alcohol?A: No. A lack of wine is understood throughout the Old Testament as the judgment of God (Jeremiah 48:33). God even suggests that the Israelites’ yearly tithe could include the purchase of strong drink (Deuteronomy 14:26).whats your take on this?
Connie,>>was it true that noah was a drunk?Wiki answers said: "There is no record of Noah being a 'drunk' in terms of it being a consuming habit in his life. The Bible does mention, in the period after the flood, that Noah 'began to be a husbandman' - that is, a person with a vineyard. He evidently made some form of wine and got drunk. It is never suggested that this was habitual. see Genesis 9:20-24.">>and is it true that if you can resist the temptation of drinking to excess you may have one drink? this guy seems to think soLusting after those sweet sweet hops cannot be a good thing though. We should try to do all things to glorify God, having a 6pk a night is not glorifying God. We must determine what the Bible speaks of when it speaks of the term "wine"Its clear that at the supper of unleavened bread (no yeast), that the Lord would not offer a drink made with yeast.The term strong drink only means one thing in the Bible though. If someone wants a scotch on their death bed then give it to them, sure (Proverbs 31:6). Otherwise stay away! (Proverbs 20:1, Leviticus 10:9, Numbers 6:3,Deuteronomy 29:6,Judges 13:4, Judges 13:7, Isaiah 5:11, Isaiah 5:22, Luke 1:15)I found these verses to be interesting and it points to our conversation here:Micah 2:10-11 "Arise ye, and depart; for this is not your rest: because it is polluted, it shall destroy you, even with a sore destruction.If a man walking in the spirit and falsehood do lie, saying, I will prophesy unto thee of wine and of strong drink; he shall even be the prophet of this people."In other words Flee from, and don't listen to, the ones that say fermented wine and strong drinks are OK.
hmmmm seems pretty extreme but some of those verses speak like you shouldn't drink while pregnant which is well known now anyway on another topic if one of the commandments even in the OT is Thou shalt not kill why then did god command killing of the wicked?or whoever? thats what I dont get if you shouldn't kill another man and thats god's law why did he "command" that they (gods children or whoever) kill people
Connie,It all depends on contextIn Exodus 20 it says thou shall not kill (Strong's H7523 - ratsach: Murder) and the very next page in Exodus 21:12 says "He that smiteth a man so that he die, shall be surely put to death"So punishment for evil (Capitol punishment) is allowed. Protection of others, "killing" is allowed. Seeking to murder someone is not.
so what your saying is only killing criminals is just? or self defence? i get the defence but why is it justified you are still killing your fellow man so its basically giving them a free pass to take another life is this in the NT too? from the gospel i have heard jesus is all about forgiveness (if repented) and that everyone is offered forgivness so hypothetically if a pedophile were to repent on his death bed would he be allowed into heaven? now pedophilia (unlike homosexuality!) is a disturbance in the brain chemicals or something (not much of a phsycologist)so it is impossible to truly change your brain at least so they technically cannot turn from sin they would surely have sickening thoughts *shudders* would this prevent them from entering heaven or not?
I'm a little confused by you Dan, in other posts you say you must abstain from wine/booze and then you say well it may be acceptable if you don't get drunk which is it? can I have one drink occasionally and it won't be considered a sin? if I just have one beer to relax after a day of work but refrain from getting drunk is that acceptable or not?>>Which is more important having a "good" time for a season or being saved from hell?well considering my age at this particular point in time a good time for a season I'm not saying it won't change as I become older and hopefully wiser, I may even choose to become religious either entering buddhism, hinduism or even christianity (or another) I personally have no problem with religion in general it's the wars, raping, pillaging and torturing (all these are present day!!) done in the name of religion that turns me offfor example missionaries (not all) in india's poorer regions that trick the poor villiagers, resort to crude methods such as instilling fear and avoiding a particular family simply because they are hindu there are even reports of them raping children because they wouldn't convert and torturing villiagers, there I found one report stating they torched a temple and destroyed a valuable Rama statue to a hindu that is blasphemy of the highest order, would you like it if I blashemed or destroyed a statue of Jesus?think about it when you call hindu gods evil you are commiting their blasphemy you may say the religion is false but insult the gods and you offend the person immensly like if I were to say G**damnit remember "whatseover he soweth is what he shall reap" and "do unto others as you would done yourself" I know not all missionaries do this and many actually help poor villiages while gently witnessing to them and I am not against converts but this mad rush of christianity that all must be "saved" is what these so called "missionaries" are doing and they resort to these appauling tactics so I ask you if they are only out to save and preach the gospel are these means truly necessary, to mock their customs and beliefs, tourturing and tricking them after all they are trying to save them from hell right? >:( they got this all from the bible I'm just saying Dan to quote William Shakespeare "even the devil himself can find scripture to support his position"
Connie,>>can I have one drink occasionally and it won't be considered a sin?I think so.>>if I just have one beer to relax after a day of work but refrain from getting drunk is that acceptable or not?Acceptable, unless you are doing it front of someone that is offended. If you cause a stumbling (Romans 14:21) that would be a sin.Which is more important having a "good" time for a season or being saved from hell?>>well considering my age at this particular point in time for seasonWhat does your age have to do with it? Are you claiming that young people don't die? If you die in your sins then you will end up in hell. Now if you are younger then, lets say, 12 then I might agree with you that you may not be held to the standards of an adult, and you may possibly end up in heaven. Beyond even 10-12 you know better though.>>I personally have no problem with religion in general it's the wars, raping, pillaging and torturing (all these are present day!!) done in the name of religion that turns me offNo excuse not to get saved. If people are blowing up abortion clinics in the name of Jesus does not mean its right or that Jesus does not exist. You have broken God's Laws (the Ten Commandments) and are already guilty. You will be punished for breaking those Laws (hell) God loves you so much he gave you a gift to allow you to go free on that Day of Judgment. All those other religions that you mentioned are what is called "works righteousness religions" that you must do something to merit everlasting life. Nothing you do can earn your way to heaven. (Ephesians 2:8-9) So even a Buddhist or a Hindu can find everlasting life but only through repentance (turning away from sin) and faith In Jesus Christ our God the Father.>>... is what these so called "missionaries" are doing and they resort to these appauling tactics so I ask you if they are only out to save and preach the gospel are these means truly necessary...First no one can covert anyone to follow Christ. If you follow Christ, even if we have years of discussions, it will not be because I have done anything for you. It is the saving grace of God that changes your heart.I will say this though, you are evaluating if God is right or not. If you are doing this then you are placing yourself as god. You are breaking the 2nd commandment and that is no way to know God. God is not to be evaluated.God instructs us to "give an answer to every man that asks" (1 Peter 3:15) I tell them that Christianity is true, then defend the truth of it if asked. That is where it ends, the rest is between you and God. Ask Him, He is right there for the asking. (Matthew 7:7-8) Ask Him to reveal the truth to you and He will. If you approach God though, approach Him on His terms. Start reading the Bible and He will indeed reveal Himself to you. Start with John, then Romans. (John 5:24, John 8:31) I wish you the best.>>to quote William Shakespeare "even the devil himself can find scripture to support his position"So throw the Baby out with the bathwater? Have you ever read the Bible? If not please do so. Read it even like a book cover to cover and you WILL understand God by the end of it.
>>What does your age have to do with it? Are you claiming that young people don't die?well I wasn't claiming that at all simply answering your question that I don't really think about hell/(hades) or heaven or the afterlife in general and that was because of my age I'm at the age where partying is my life I'm sure there was a point in time for you where all you did was hang out with friends and party that is what I was saying. I haven't even begun life and all you christians want me to do is think about my death/afterlife thats kinda morbid that aside you entire argument is what every single religious person says to me although christianity in general is more keen on converting me (yes I'm inluding jehovas witnesses and mormons as well) only with their own "true" book I have read some of the bible but I found what paul says often contradicts what I've heard about jesus' teachings like for example wasn't it Jesus who said live by the sword die by the sword and blessed are the peacekeepers for they are gods children (cant remember the rest by heart but it's matthew something)then paul say's judge the righteous, to jesus' he who is without sin casteth the first stone and judge not lest ye be judged also which is it? I tried to have faith once........didn't work out the way I thought it wouldand as for me saying is god right or not and putting myself as god well I'm not saying that at all just questioning WHICH God is right and which is wrong what makes christian/catholic/jehovas witnesses(?) god right and what makes thousands upon thousands of other gods wrong? can you answer me this (without consulting the bible)and saying you must believe or have faith (in other words total copouts)
Connie,>>can you answer me this (without consulting the bible)and saying you must believe or have faith (in other words total copouts)That is like saying can I describe how something looks, without eyes or a brain. We need the Bible to determine the Bible. It is God's revelation that we have to START with to know ANYTHING. Start there. I cannot convince you of anything though. Otherwise there would be no such a thing as a non believer. You belief is between you and God, not any man.
I didn't ask you to convince me I just asked you to provide why you came to your conclusion to become a christian and not any other religion but in terms of we need the bible to determine the bible that is circular logic at best like we need the vedas to determine the vedas or we need the torah to determine the torah it seems to be the backup of anyone caught in the corner or unable to back up their evidence what I really don't get is why evolution somehow disproves the bible or at least why you christians argue why it is somehow "wrong" (and twisting and manipulating science as you guys seem to go)
Connie,>>but in terms of we need the [B]ible to determine the [B]ible that is circular logic at bestNo, we need God to understand the Bible, or anything for that matter.Now assuming that the Bible is not evidence for God because you do not believe God exists, is question begging.Nevertheless, Connie. How do you know that your reasoning about this or ANYTHING is valid?>>what I really don't get is why evolution somehow disproves the [B]ibleIt doesn't>>why you [C]hristians argue why it is somehow "wrong" (and twisting and manipulating science as you guys seem to go)Because it is
becuase it is? how? what is your evidence? (apart from make believe so called science) evolution has fossils do you know how rare it is to even have a fossil? they have like a timeline of fossils it is so well put together it's as if God himself kept them from harm for the scientists! but then again I and maybe yourself are both laypeople when it comes to biology and evolution it is extremely complex so I shall leave the argument of evolution to the experts since I have not got the qualifications needed to make educated conclusions about it and they do (except for that bloke who put up irruducible complexity) but thats an example of how SOME religious scientists twist and warp science to disprove evolution anyway if evolution doesnt disprove the bible then why fiercely attack it? do you have a better theory? (apart from the simple goddidit) if so it is ready for peer evaluation!or at least testing>>Nevertheless, Connie. How do you know that your reasoning about this or ANYTHING is valid?because I go by what the evidence tells me!? If god(s) spoke to me tomorow I would fall to my knees ok I wouldn't pray but I'd certainly shout "you're real oh almighty bloodlusting one you're real!"and then I shall reevalute my worldview and all that other shit that someone would do but for the moment god(s) seem either extremely busy or are the very quiet typealthough I have to admit I am reading some more of the bible out of curiosity and it's kinda an assignment you could say not feeling enlightened as of yet but hey I'll let ya know aye =P
Connie,Nevertheless, Connie. How do you know that your reasoning about this or ANYTHING is valid?>>because I go by what the evidence tells me!?Problem is Connie, you use your reasoning, about evidence, to test your reasoning which is viciously circular. Plus, you are not justifying your ability to reason, you are telling us where you learned things.Great to hear you are reading the Bible though, I recommend Reading all of John. Speaking of evidence (Romans 1:18-21)
and what about your reasoning is that more valid than professionals now? please explain why you came to your conclusion>>you use your reasoning, about evidence, to test your reasoning which is viciously circular. Plus, you are not justifying your ability to reason, you are telling us where you learned things.thats like saying no judge in the world can do their job properly because they use their reasoning about the evidence presented before them to make a decision or no police wo/man can do their job properly because they use their reasoning when collecting and examining evidence in their cases (I am aware that there is some curruption in these jobs but thats not to say every single judge or cop is currupt) as for me telling you simply where I learned from well duh! I'm certainly not albert einstien or are you now telling me that you were born with the knowledge of everything? that you did not have to learn in your life? mind's a terrible thing to waste after all isn't a gift from god? as a layperson I rely somewhat on experts in their perspective field to give me information for example if I get sick I do not go to a church or faith healer to heal me I may pray and go to a church to pray but as they say god helps those who helps themselves so I go to a trained and experienced professional ie a doctor so he/she may give me the information I need to make a decision reguarding my health and wellbeing I may even go to a specialist who knows extensively on my particular illness for me to say well they're wrong because my holy text says so is terribly pridefull of me as I do not possess the training and education/qualifications necessary to make educated decisions or have the information I need to make an educated conclusion..In short to get information I need to refer to professionals for example if I needed to know about biology I would read biology textbooks and websites written by professionals who actually know what they are talking about because they have extensively studied on the subject (which makes them the professionals)ID science compared to actual science can be summed up like this:you have a toothache who would you go to? a qualified dentist *shudders* (I hate dentists) who knows what he/she is talking about and can do the procedure safely (that would be actual science in case you're wondering) or some guy who got his qualifications by less than scrupulous means who believes your toothache is the affliction of the devil and does an excorcism to relieve you of the toothache (which would be ID science) you know as a side note I actually read/seen alot of stories of exorcisims done on kids with autism performed by priests and clergy in present day *shakes head with disgust* but thankfully I know not all christians would do thisbtw if you think that I gave an unfair discription of ID science then I suggest you tell them to at the very least learn what the ToE actually is instead of them using "evidence" like the croco duck among other ridiculous stories oh yeah the bible still not enlightened but I am starting to find I have no time to actually read it and its a little boring but that maybe just because I hate reading anything plus my lazyness is conflicting with my hectic life (ok maybe a little bit of partying as well) but out of curiosity I shall start reading John as for the Romans bit very convenient indeed but shall dig deeper
>>you use your reasoning, about evidence, to test your reasoning which is viciously circular. Plus, you are not justifying your ability to reason, .that's like saying Judges and Police cannot possibly do their jobs because they use their reasoning in examining evidence (I do relize there are some less than moral people in these jobs but not all)>>you are telling us where you learned thingswell duh! I am not Albert Einstien of course I need to learn things are you telling me you know all in the world? that you know everything and anything? if so be careful that is putting yourself in the place of god... isn't that considered blasphemy?As I am a layperson I am somewhat reliant on the educated conclusions of professionals for example if I am terribly sick I don't go to church to get better I may pray and go to church to help me but as the saying goes "god helps those who help themselves" so I go to a trained and qualified doctor after all he provided them for me right?anyway to get the information necessary for me to make a good decision reguarding my health and wellbeing I go to a professional doctor who has the training necessary to help me or specialists I may get second opinions but again I am refering to someone who knows a hell of alot more about the human body than I do making them a trained and qualified professional another example would be If I were to say study biology I would go to textbooks and maybe websites written by people who have extensive knowledge on the subject which makes them the professionalsfor me to say as IDers do well all their educated conclusions are wrong because my holy text says so is not only willfully ignorant but terribly prideful (isn't that supposed to be a sin?)you don't have to be an athiest to believe in ToE (I actually know many although some of them aren't exactly educated) you can still wholeheartedly believe in Christ and god and still take ToE as fact after all as any job nowadays they can't exactly exlude christians from becoming scientists (although they may ignore idiots who twist and warp science ie the ID'ers) and as a religious person you may take the big bang and ToE as a tool used by god(s) to create life besides If nothing (animals) evolved or changed God might become a little bored ID science as far as I've seen is psydo science at best I mean highschoolers know more about biology than some of them which is sad reallyif you think I have given an unfair discription of ID scientists then go and tell them to freaking study ToE instead of them making outlandish claims for example the croco duck I mean if you're going to disprove a theory you need to at least know what it actually sayslastly on the bible (not enlightened yet =P) I shall take your suggestion but I am finding it hard to find time to actually read and it is a bit boring though that could be due to my short attention span and my lazyness is now conflicting with my hectic life (ok maybe a little bit of partying as well) as for the Romans "evidence" very convinient for god very convinient indeed but shall dig deeper
>>>Problem is Connie, you use your reasoning, about evidence, to test your reasoning which is viciously circularwell excuse me for being human.... seriously though thats kinda like saying a judge or maybe a cop can't do their job as they use their own reasoning about evidence whether it is presented before them or whether they are gathering it >>Plus, you are not justifying your ability to reason, you are telling us where you learned things.ok thats fair enough however a big Duh! with reguards to where I learned things are you now saying you know everything there is about the universe? that you are all knowing?if so I'd be careful you are putting yourself in god's place....isn't that blasphemy? (If not I apologise) besides where do you learn things?I as a layperson in most areas am somewhat reliant on the educated conclusions from professionals and get my information from them after all do you to some local hick to get your teeth out or do you go to a qualified dentist? now an example would be if I were to be extremely sick now I could go to church and wait for god to heal me but then what of the saying "god helps those who help themselves" so while I may pray for a speedy recovery I have to consult a medically trained doctor with the qualifications/education needed to inform me of my choices reguarding my health and wellbeing I could go for a second opinion but again I am consulting a medically trained professional after all god provided them with the knowledge to help us right? even jesus recommended doctors! another example would be if I were to study biology now I wouldn't go to some random bloke to get my information I would go to textbooks and maybe even websites written by professionals on the subject so as to gain knowledge on biologyNow on ID science vs well actual science I am going to have to side with the actual scientists I mean you don't have to be an athiest to believe in ToE religious people consider it merely God's tool you aren't even required to believe in ToE to be an athiest I know a fair few of athiests who don't agree with ToE although they do lack some educationif you think I have gotten it wrong with reguards to ID "science" then for crying out loud tell them to study up on ToE so we don't have to put up with croco- ducks as "evidence" against it (tehe croco-duck thats pretty funny actually) among other such silly stories with the bible (not yet enlightened =P) I shall take your suggestion however I am finding it difficult to find time to read it with all the other things I got going on right now (my lazyiness is now conflicting with my hectic life >:( plus I am finding it a bit troublesome to read it as I do have a somewhat short attention span oh yes and on the "romans evidence" very convinient for god very convinient indeed but shall investigate further
Connie,You are not justifying your ability to reason, you are telling us where you learned things. For the sake of this argument, I could not care less where you learned anything. I want to know how you know that your reasoning about ANYTHING is valid? Could you, for instance, be wrong about EVERYTHING that you know?
Ignore this bozo, Connie. Even Dan's BBFF (Circular Sye) knows that Christian Presupposition is cheap parlor trick to kill all conversation, rather than a valid form of apologism.Dan can't account for his ability to reason either, so it's dishonest for him to try to force you to do it.
Wem,>>Dan can't account for his ability to reason either, so it's dishonest for him to try to force you to do it. Are you certain of that? While we are at it, how do you know that your reasoning about this or ANYTHING is valid? For the record I can account for my ability to reason. In Christian worldview we have a foundation for unchangeable, repeatable, universal reason because it flows directly from the nature of God. His existence alone makes the universe, reason, and human experience possible…
Whateverman wrote: Dan can't account for his ability to reason either, so it's dishonest for him to try to force you to do it.Dan responded: Are you certain of that? While we are at it, how do you know that your reasoning about this or ANYTHING is valid?See Connie? This is what a dishonest presuppositionalist does. Before you're allowed to have a conversation, you must first confirm that your senses are valid reliable and truthful. Watch Dan over the next few weeks, and try to discern what it takes to make Dan trot this nonsense out. Is it when his arguments are going nowhere? Does it happen right after someone delivers the coup de grace against one of his silly opinions?A presupper claims that God is the source of logic and reason, and thus, any attempt to carry on even the most basic conversation or even have the sense to observe traffic signs, you're confirming that Dan's God exists.Dan will tel you he knows this (re. God's the source of logic) because God has told it to him in such a way that he can be sure of its truth. After all, an omnipotent deity should have the power to tell you things you can be sure of. Right?The trick is that the same deity, or even a malicious being like Satan, could tell you false things in such a way that you could be sure they're true.And thus, not even Dan can differentiate between truth and falsehood, reality and fantasy. Just like the rest of us, he must first presuppose that his senses are fairly reliable, long before the word "God" enters into his consciousness. And in doing so, can't be 100% certain of the truthfulness of anything he sees.Just like us.So don't buy into his tricks, because he's simply trying to get you to stop talking. It's dishonesty, pure and simple.
Wem,>>The trick is that the same deity, or even a malicious being like Satan, could tell you false things in such a way that you could be sure they're true.So then you don't believe that an omniscient, omnipotent being could reveal things to us, such that we can be certain of them? If not, why not?>>And thus, not even Dan can differentiate between truth and falsehood, reality and fantasy.Sure I could as I just did.Greg Bahnsen writes: ”In the Christian worldview, however, the Christian is not engaged in viciously circular argument, a circular argument on the same plane. We appeal above and beyond the temporal realm. God’s self-revelation in nature and in Scripture informs us of the two-level universe. God is not a fact like other facts in the world. He is the Creator and Establisher of all else. His existence alone makes the universe, and reason, and human experience possible… … The “circularity” of a transcendental argument is not at all the same as the fallacious ‘circularity’ of an argument in which the conclusion is a restatement (in one form or another) of one of its premises.” ~ (Pushing the Antithesis pg.) 124.I will ask you this directly to avoid the smokescreen. Wem is it possible that you are wrong about everything you claim to know?
Special pleading, Dan.
Frodo,>>Special pleading, Dan.There can be no logical fallacies absent an absolute standard of logic, which you simply cannot account for without God.
>>There can be no logical fallacies absent an absolute standard of logic, which you simply cannot account for without Godwhich god dan? what makes the christian/judeo god any more valid than any other god? you might say god will guide me right? but what if it were an entirely different god guiding me? everything you have said can be said by every other religious person why is your god correct and theirs not? you could say "god revealed himself to me" however that is the exact same argument used by people of ALL faiths so by god "revealing himself" *chuckles* to people of all faiths does that make your god true or theirs true?
btw whem, thanks I see it done all the time kinda strange when in a debate?!
Frodo,>>which god [D]an?Now you're asking the right questions!>>but what if it were an entirely different god guiding me?There is indeed an entirely different god guiding you. You're right! I followed that same god as an atheist. I relished in his leadership. I mocked God. The Bible calls that god, of this earth, Satan. Until that day of revelation that brought me to my knees to trust the Creator of this universe. To turn away from following Satan (Repent) and trust in Jesus Christ our Savior.We all know the real God as stated in Romans 1:18-21.In Christian worldview we have a foundation for unchangeable, repeatable, universal reason because it flows directly from the nature of God.
Dan - that was actually Connie who said that.I guess what we're all still confused about, years later, (and when I say "confused" I actually mean "couldn't give a shit") is how you make the leap from "you fools need an objective absolute to justify your every waking thought" to "I know just the guy". It's almost criminally transparent.
i dont like this game it makes my head hurt!seriously though how the hell did you make that leap dan? I posted the question what makes the judeo/CHRISTIAN god(im going to include satan as you said your god calls him a god) more valid than any other?not "God of the earth" not "Satan" other GOD/S
I will not engage you Connie on the topic of God/gods, unless you first justify your ability to reason about God/gods - which of course you will be unable to do.All I am saying is that you have no basis for assuming that your reasoning is valid, yet you make that assumption. Without presupposing God, your worldview is reduced to absurdity.
See, that's his trick. he claims he wont discuss anything with his opponent UNTIL that opponent first accepts that Dan's God makes conversation possible. It's pure rhetorical nonsense.Connie, I actually *like* talking about how people account for rationality and reason. Whether it's in a debate or simply among friends over good coffee/beer - it's lots of fun. What aggravates me is when people like Dan and Sye use it as a means to STOP conversation. Notice that Dan's STILL trying to do it, even though his mentor has admitted the futility of the subject.Oh well. Good luck to you, Connie. I don't often see real discussion on this blog; I hope you manage to get more out of Dan that I have.
dan, why are you so afraid to engage me on this topic? I doubt i will make you stop believing in your god you are entitled to believe whatever you wish so what are you afraid of? I thought the whole point of your blog was to debate so lets debatewhem, thanks I'm not much of a debater but I'm learning
Connie,>>[D]an, why are you so afraid to engage me on this topic?First, in order to prove something to you, I will need to know what qualifies as proof according to your position. Please answer the following questions:1. Does the thing proven have to be absolutely true?2. Does the thing proven have to be known for certain to be absolutely true?3. Does the thing proven have to follow absolute laws of logic?I will be taking a break for 40 days or so to have quiet time alone with God so this may have to wait.
Dan fails to understand that to have absolute knowledge, you must have the knowledge of a deity. Only a deity will know if a thing is true or false in every given situation at every given place and time.Even a deity with unimaginable abilities could not give a human being absolute certainty, for to do this would be equivalent to making that human being omniscient (ie. a God)
dan ok1 not exactly as you yanks say just prove reasonable doubt2 I dont think so3 sure why not its a debate debate me!?whem, that is soo true isn't considered blasphemy? I find it not only blaphemous but hypocritical of professing (some) chrisitians to have absolute knowledge not to mention filled with pride (which is a sin as I recall) I dont get the mindset behind it
Connie,2. Does the thing proven have to be known for certain to be absolutely true?>>I dont think soIt doesn't have to be true? Er um ok? Is it possible that an omniscient, omnipotent being could reveal things to us, such that we can be certain of them?
oh ur back ah yes I see what you're getting at well I suppose it is a possibility (I am yet to see proof though) but then is it possible for said omnipresent being to lie to us for the greater good that is (or other reasons) if said being cannot lie that means that the being has limitations and is not all powerful and if a omnipresent being can lie to us mere mortals than people writing holy books (yes bible included) also being fallable unlike god can lie very easy or at least misinterperate what said being has told them? I mean if you want to know what the bible really says then learn the ancient languages right? how is it then that one religion who says they have the truth be right and all others who say the same thing be wrong? how do we distinguish who is "right" and who is "wrong"?btw am still continuing to read the bible although not enlightened I'm beginning to think I am beyond redemption
Connie,>>how do we distinguish who is "right" and who is "wrong"?Non of the other religions provide the precondition of intelligibility.>>still continuing to read the bible although not enlightened I'm beginning to think I am beyond redemptionThat might be true if you are viewing it that way. Approaching God with an unrepentant heart is not wise. Until one realizes of his, or her, impending doom they will not have an understanding. To approach God we must have a broken and contrite heart (Psalm 34:18,Psalm 51:17) to fear Him (Proverbs 9:10) because it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Hebrews 10:31).I will bold this to emphases that unbelievers are dead in their sin. Repentance comes BEFORE knowledge of truth, not after: 2 Timothy 2:24-26
so we must fear god? well at least you're honest all these other christians keep telling me he is a kind and loving diety!!precondition of intelligibility?can you please elaborate?I know I'm not perfect I maybe a sinner, a rebel of sorts :P, I make mistakes to say otherwise is stupid or terribly arrogantI was merely joking before,(sheesh) I am truly trying to keep an open mind/heart all I meant was "god" has not revealed the truth to me or whatever it is that is meant to happen what I meant was maybe I am incapable of just having blind faith in a diety/god(s)
Connie,God is a kind and loving Deity!! So much so He is willing to punish the wicked, the unrepentant. Perfect love is a constant confronter, it takes far more love to confront then to ignore the situation.>>precondition of intelligibility, can you please elaborate?"unbelievers can count, but they cannot account for counting." Van TilThere must be something that allows us to understand and reason, the Laws of Logic, Math, Science and so forth wouldn't make any sense otherwise. The atheists cannot account for their reasoning other then a viciously circular one. They use their reasoning to test their reasoning.The Bible is true because it first makes the claim that it is true, proves itself internally, AND denial of the truth of the Bible leads to absurdity." It is also the claim of the Christian that God reveals the truth of His Word to us directly such that we can be certain of it >>I know I'm not perfectVery true>>I maybe a sinnerCorrection, you are a sinner.>>what I meant was maybe I am incapable of just having blind faith in a diety/god(s)Blind faith? You might be misunderstanding the word faith.Faith is a strong belief in a supernatural power that control human destiny, complete confidence in a plan, a loyalty or allegiance to a cause.Webster says:1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs.Faith, in a sense, is synonymous with loyalty and TRUST. In fact the synonyms are: confidence, trust, reliance, conviction, belief, assurance, devotion, loyalty, faithfulness, commitment, fidelity, constancy, fealty, dedication, allegianceSo Connie, you are indeed capable of trust. Are you willing to trust, is the question?
am I capable of trust.... not anymore am I willing to trust? umm no but I am working on thatpunish the wicked? but he'll punish me unless I tell him he is my master and in reality my only crime is being human and not believing in him. yes a very loving diety sending billions of people to hell (hades) simply for being born into a family with a different belief system even one that believes in Jesus yes a wonderful loving diety there is something that allows us to understand the laws of physics ect it's called going to school and getting an educationthe bible is true because the bible says so? now who's using circular logic?sorry mate I need a little more to go on than that
Connie,>>am I capable of trust.... not anymoreI can relate. People have failed me almost every time. That is why its very difficult to trust people anymore. I perfectly understand. God is an entirely different story. He we can trust and not get "burned" so to speak like we do when we expose ourselves with people. >>am I willing to trust? umm no but I am working on that...hugs...>>but he'll punish me unless I tell him he is my master and in reality my only crime is being human and not believing in him. You were created to glorify Him, that is your only purpose in life. If you stop breathing you will die, if you don't glorify Him, you will die. Mankind was created to worship. Some are choosing, instead of worshiping God as instructed, to worship self, money, power, or fame which leads to destruction. They choose evil over God. For that they will be destroyed. Wahoo! The great news is that this is a righteous God. All wrongs will be righted. Is evil universal? If so, then that means there is the standard that its gauged from. I say that gauge is God. If you believe that gauge is evil then its your understanding of the gauge that is wrong, or the gauge is the wrong one. For example, if you gauge evil by man and you find that man is/can be evil then the gauge is something else. The gauge will be the constant. God is constant. >>the bible is true because the bible says so? now who's using circular logic?Never said it wasn’t circular, just that it is not viciously circular, as your view is. Circular logic is valid in some circumstances. 2+2=4 because 4-2=2 is a valid circular argument. On the other hand, 2+2=4 because 2+2=4. (you reason that your reasoning is valid.) Viciously circular does not advance knowledge.Intellectual honesty would force you to admit that God could reveal some things to us such that we can know them for certain. You, on the other hand, have no avenue to certainty.>>yes a very loving [deity] sending billions of people to hell (hades) simply for being born into a family with a different belief system even one that believes in Jesus yes a wonderful loving [deity] You misunderstand the gauge and the reasoning. A loving God will punish the wicked and people do wicked acts. As this video shows we are wicked because we choose to do evil instead of good. My family, that I grew up with, are all atheists but that doesn't mean I have to be one. Dying is a very personal thing. We all die alone. Even if you are dying next to your husband you are still experiencing dying alone. We all must choose right or wrong. We all know who God is. We cannot refute it, we can only deny it.Like Ray said, atheists cannot find God in the same way a criminal cannot find the police. >>sorry mate I need a little more to go on than that Sorry mate my argument is not intended to be convincing, I am merely commanded to speak the truth, 'convincing' is out of my hands.
I was created to glorify god? could have fooled me see I thought I was "created" by my parentals in any case seems a little petty to create someone/thing just to recieve adoration and bowing and scraping and all the other shit but I suppose (IF God were real) he did give us freewill which begs the question umm why? I mean in all his power and such did he not relise that satan or whoever (who he created) would take advantage of that..... well thats what all the christians tell me anywaynow you say that people either choose god or evil? mate I know some hindus who follow christs example more than some so called "christians" do so tell me are they (christians) following god? then theres the issue of your morality you claim monopoly of it correct? but pro lifers in my experience are pretty immoral people (just an observation) they attack minorities and have driven some of my own friends towards depression because of that, they suggest children carry pregnancies to term despite health complications (my father would have certainly had a "word" with them if someone had suggested that to him if I were in that situation) then theres the holier than thou christians I mean they're just forgiven right not perfect they're following the bible aren't they? are they being dishonest? hypocritical? both?as for the trust thing thats a long and dark story there I just don't think I'm ready to trust a diety who would allow such things
Connie, Christians like Dan assume that being alive is a gift of some kind. In my 43 years of life, I've seen all kinds of people in situations where it was difficult to find something to be thankful for.Why should we be "thankful" for being alive? Why is life a "gift"? Why is being alive better than being dead? Dan will never suitably answer these questions because he's scared to, and he's quick to try to make other people just as scared as he is.Don't fall for it. Dan believes because he's scared of the idea of not believing.
Wem and Connie,>>Connie, Christians like Dan assume that being alive is a gift of some kind.Yet, again, you are not entirely right. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. (Philippians 1:21) Yes, just being is a gift but its for the purpose that is the real gift.Living in a fallen creation is certainly no picnic. I depend on death to correct that. We are guaranteed persecutions, tribulations, and temptations here in this life. Wem knows this, but maybe he and you would like to go to my post that explains that completely. Did you even consider the life of the apostles? Beheading, crucified upside down and such? Die is gain...for the Christian that is.>>Dan believes because he's scared of the idea of not believing. That is impossible for all of us. We all know God (Romans 1:18-23), some just deny His authority. That will end very badly.
That's right, Connie: Christianity is a death cult.You read it here.
wow whem I didn't think anyone would actually admit it but here we areand dan thats kinda morbid and I'm heavily into shows/movies with vampires and other mythical creatures of the night!but I spose you were truthful about christianity so if I don't wish to die or wait for my time and don't believe in christ/god then I will end up in hades ooops I mean hell? I know some of the sins in the bible (I think it would have been quicker to say what is not a sin) they won't let you have any fun :Pseriously though tell me dan because I am curious would we have to continue to worship god in heaven? (IF heaven and all that were real) and do christians really welcolme death with open arms? if so you guys might want to see a phsychiatrist just be on the safe side
"Never said it wasn’t circular, just that it is not viciously circular." Word games. You are asserting that the bible is true because it claims to be true and (unspoken premise) "because the bible is true." It is viciously circular. "[Y]ou reason that your reasoning is valid." No, we assume our reasoning to be valid. We don't pretend it to be a conclusion rather than a necessary premise. Presuppositional apologetics is about the lie insisting that logic needs to be "accounted for."
Wem,>>That's right, Connie: Christianity is a death cult.And you certainly do not even know what a cult is apparently. If a cult is "followers of an unorthodox, extremist, or false religion or sect who often live outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader", then there has to be a STANDARD for that cult to be evaluated against. So if cults exist, as you just claimed, then you are forced to acknowledge that the STANDARD to judge the cult exists also. So, once again, you are using my worldview to evaluate what you believe otherwise your views are reduced to absurdity.
Yearning for death - definitely not extremist.Definitely.
Pvb,"Never said it wasn’t circular, just that it is not viciously circular.">>Word games.Word games? Are you claiming there is no difference between viciously circular and just circular? argumentum ad avoidiam? :7)
Pvb,>>Presuppositional apologetics is about the lie insisting that logic needs to be "accounted for." Are you certain of this? If so, how do you account for certainty within your worldview? If not, so what? Irrelevant opinions.
"Word games? Are you claiming there is no difference between viciously circular and just circular?" You haven't identified any difference. You just say that your own viciously circular reasoning is only circular and not viciously so. "Are you certain of this?" By normal ideas of certainty. But asking me to account for certainty is part of the lie claiming that logic needs to be "accounted" for.
Pvb,Are you claiming there is no difference between viciously circular and just circular?>>You haven't identified any difference.Are you certain of that? Obviously not, because there is a huge difference of feeling right and being right. Care to take a look at the evidence?
It's kinda silly how (like you've pointed out, Pvblivs) he ignores the fact that presupposing the validity of reason isn't reasoning that reasoning is valid.I too would label this a lie (ie. requiring that a presupposition requires justification), especially notable that he provides none for his own.
Wem,What is really silly is that your defend your failed and "atheistic" worldview that does not have the precondition to intelligibility, my worldview provides it simply.
ahh come on dan to presuppose god as you are suggesting we would have to ASSUME that god is required to provide us with understanding of the laws of logic therefore resulting in the circular logic you are accusing athiests of
Connie,Keep in mind that I have never said it wasn’t circular, just that it is not viciously circular, as your view is. Huge difference. Its the ability to justify rationality as opposed to the destruction of it.Intellectual honesty would force you to admit that God could reveal some things to us such that we can know them for certain. You, on the other hand, have no avenue to certainty.You see if you say God cannot reveal things to us then I would ask, are you certain that God cannot reveal some things to us such that we can know them for certain, if so, how are you certain of this?There is NO avenue to certainty for atheists. It ends in an infinite regress of ‘and how do you know that?’
danhypocrite you use your logic and keep saying well how do you know for certain while at the same time bashing athiests for the same thing how do you know it was the judeo/christian god who revealed this in the first place and not one of the millions of other gods? what makes you certain it was god and not a demon or "satan"?
Connie,>>what makes you certain it was god and not a demon or "satan"?Same way I can be certain of anything, revelation. It would take intellectual dishonesty to claim that God could not reveal some things to us such that we could know them for certain. The only possible way that we can know anything for certain is by Divine revelation from One who knows everything.Also, The Bible is true because it first makes the claim that it is true, proves itself internally and externally, AND denial of the truth of the Bible leads to absurdity.
Connie, Dan refuses to explain this revelation. We've been asking him for details in another thread, and the best we get from him is "I believe that things have been revealed to me, somehow, but I can't explain it"Lulz.Actually, with the frequency that he lies on this blog, I'm pretty sure he's not really a Christian.
That is no true Wem,Lying for atheists now? In that "other" thread I said:"Which brings us to that cartoon yet again. Natural revelations are what is around you naturally. Supernatural, and the Bible, are special revelations. Clearer?"
ok so god told you he was god? yeah and that's so not as circular as you claim athiests are *sarcasm*I'm merely trying to figure out this absolute certainty you people seem to have and I'm NOT only talking about christians I have observed this very thing in some religious people judaism, hinduism, mormanism to name a couple you all seem to be so sure that your god(s) revealed things to you and that it was their(or your) particular god/s that revealed stuff
Connie,>>ok so god told you he was god? Correction, He told everyone He was God. Yes even you even if you are suppressing the Truth in unrighteousness.
huh? he didn't tell me matebesides that arguement can and is used for every religion eg.krishna told everyone he was god or allah told everyone he was god and suppressing this "truth" is unrighteous fact is you have to assume that this entity is god and is not lying to you now if you're talking about Jesus yes he claimed he was god (and I do believe we can learn alot from this holy man) but so did all the reincarnations of hinduism so really you can just as easily use that argument for that "truth" than you can with your "truth"
Wem,>>That's right, Connie: Christianity is a death cult.I was just reading about False Continuum fallacies and I thought of you Wem, at almost 3:30am.
Bring your "A" game. To link: <a href="url">text</a>