Bart: "I have done that in my past with sincerity and there was no revelation of the existence of God. So where do you search for God?"It begins in His Word. (John 14:21)
Now, I don't know you at all. So this is me sharing what I have observed and helped this hypothesis of mine.
There is something I noticed with many atheists, proclaiming Christians and false converts. They have one thing in common and this might have been you. It was me for many years, dare I even say 15 years, I thought I was a Christian. I received the word as many false converts with pure gladness. I was so happy to be(come) a Christian I went to church and volunteered and was very involved. The entire time I was false, sinned occasionally but that was OK, God was so forgiving. He wouldn't care, for example, that I went out Fridays to the clubs with the intention to fornicate. He loves me and I love Him. Happy, happy, joy, joy!
Flash ahead to a real dark place I was in. It was then I realized that I actually was a false convert all those years, that I was playing a Christian. Once I realized that fact, I was frozen. I was shaken to my core and I was actually afraid of God, the real kind of fear. (Proverbs 1:7; Proverbs 9:10)
I was a mess, broken, spent, and truly lost all over again. God allowed me to realize what a wretch I truly am. I approached God again but this time a very fragile, crushed, and a broken man. (Psalm 34:18;Psalm 51:17)
Words will never do the experience justice. An indication that I look for now a days isn't the happy story of becoming a Christian, its the dark and broken heart that I look for.
The other day I read something I could relate to:
"God never clothes men until He has first stripped them, nor does He quicken them by the gospel till first they are slain by the Law. When you meet with persons in whom there is no trace of conviction of sin, you may be quite sure that they have not been wrought upon by the Holy Spirit; for 'when He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.'" (Charles Spurgeon)
Science would have a hard time measuring the evidence that I now have in referenced to God. I am here to tell you that these days I know God exists and he has saved me once and for all and my name is actually written in the book of life and I am in awe daily because of it.
Thoughts are immaterial, emotions are immaterial, the mind is immaterial, none of them can be seen or observed, the lover experiencing the feelings of love to his loved one, they cannot be proven by science, only the lover can know that feeling that they are experiencing.
They are all immaterial just like the laws of logic, yet we do not question their existence just because we do not see them.
Once you experience God (and his love) it will be impossible to go backwards. You are changed, you are born again. Any truly saved Christian will tell you this. Just a mere 2-3 years ago I was saved and I experienced God.
If you want a good example of how a man responds to being soundly saved listen to Paul Washer's testimony
Dan,
ReplyDeleteI understand what you are saying, and I agree.
With one criticism.
It begins with grace made possible by the cross.
But the first workings of the Holy Spirit are conviction of sin, IMHO.
And that through hearing or reading the law and gospel, which is what I believe you are saying.
God's word is offensive and unknowable unless we are first changed through grace.
Only then can a once wicked heart even want to know God and His word.
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Dan,
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you referred to a "false convert" as one who once defended the Christian faith, only to fall away, and deny Christ.
Growing up I never heard the words false convert and because it's used so much, without an explanation, a weak or undiscipled Christian may begin having doubts about their salvation, with negative effects. A back slider would never deny Christ.
Since it was my comment that your post was responding to, I will provide a response to your post.
ReplyDeleteSo, if you want to believe in God and sincerely ask him to reveal himself and he doesn't, this is no reason to conclude he doesn't exist? Or am I to take your subjective (although I have had no such experience) as evidence that God exists? Or is it that God will only reveal himself to those who already believe in him?
Or could it be that some people "see" or "hear" God because they want to? That seems to me to be the more logical conclusion.
Dani'El said:
God's word is offensive and unknowable unless we are first changed through grace.
Only then can a once wicked heart even want to know God and His word.
What is this "grace" that you talk about? How do you define a "wicked heart"?
This, again, sounds like you are arguing that only if you believe in God will he reveal himself to you. How can one believe in something before the evidence of its existence has been provided?
Bart,
ReplyDeleteAll men are born with a sinful nature inherited from Adam.
Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
So all are born with a heart that is inclined to evil. That is evil from God's perfect standards, not man's.
Grace means "unwarranted favor" so when God chooses someone out of the world for adoption as His child, by His grace his heart is regenerated from that sinful nature to one that has new desires, to serve God and deny himself. To first be convicted of a sinful past and be moved to repentance,
and faith in the sacrifice of Christ that made it all possible.
The shed blood is what washes the stain of sin away.
But how this applies to you?
I can only share my own experience.
I tried several times to will myself into belief, but that didn't work.
And once, by God's grace, I actually came to belief?, I still had no power to repent or gain knowledge from scripture.
I read the bible and only found confusion and offense.
But I had sincerely called on the name of the Lord, so 7 long years later, my eyes were finally opened and I was truly saved.
And suddenly the bible started to make sense. God would quite literally talk to me throught it.
I started on the path of sanctification and found myself sinning less and less. When I did sin it grieved me and I repented of it right away.
I was a new person.
For me it really started when God put me face down in the dirt over and over until my pride was all gone, the soil prepared, he started to reveal Himself, then 7 loooong years later, the seed finally sprouted and bore fruit.
That's why I encourage you to be patient, be aware of your sinful nature, how you should first throw yourself on the mercy of God's court. Confess your sins and repent of them. Confess your inability to do it yourself, that you tried and failed.
Then count 100% on Christ to do the rest.
I have you in my prayers Bart.
Wait on the Lord.
Bart,
ReplyDelete"So, if you want to believe in God and sincerely ask him to reveal himself and he doesn't, this is no reason to conclude he doesn't exist?"
Trust that He has indeed revealed Himself. You just don't want to believe it.
"Or am I to take your subjective (although I have had no such experience) as evidence that God exists?
From the day that a person breaks God's Law of Sin and Death, God's greatest desire is that they will come to repentance. And so we then go along thinking that we're just living life, but the reality is, that our life's experiences are filled with acts of God trying to bring us back into a relationship with Himself. Read His Word and understand how he does indeed reveal Himself to us and then search for Him and you will find Him. Do it under His terms, not yours.
"Or is it that God will only reveal himself to those who already believe in him?"
At the moment I cannot disagree with this statement entirely.
A sinner without being washed of sins cannot be in the presence of God because he would burst into flames. (Genesis 32:30) Without the mediator we would perish (1 Timothy 2:5) Many want to see proof of God, but as sinners, they would all perish so God stays away, for their own good. Look what happened to Saul (now Paul) he was blinded by God's holy presence of light.
"Or could it be that some people "see" or "hear" God because they want to? That seems to me to be the more logical conclusion."
Close but no, some people "see" or "hear" God because God wants them to. It is His power alone that can handle such a task, not ours. Some people mistake voices in their heads (schizophrenic) as God, but you only have to see the fruit to determine if it is indeed God. If God is telling you to kill your five children (post Christ), like Andrea Yates, then you can be sure that it is not of God.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
ReplyDeleteDan: you say
ReplyDeleteSome people mistake voices in their heads (schizophrenic) as God, but you only have to see the fruit to determine if it is indeed God. If God is telling you to kill your five children (post Christ), like Andrea Yates, then you can be sure that it is not of God.
Yes, you did say this before, and Stan responded with what even you admitted to be an unanswerable argument: How can you know what fruits are good in the sight of God, given the atrocities He has ordered in the Bible?
What if God asks you to kill all the Amalekite babies? How can you know that Andrea Yates' five kids were not possessed by devils, and that God told her to kill them to free their souls?
And as far as being saved goes, I'm with Bart. I, too, sincerely sought God for years, but He's never spoken to me. And unluckily for me, I've had a pretty decent education in science, so at this point, I'd have to throw out reason to accept the Bible.
Of course, some Christians admit as much, for instance Martin Luther, who said:
Die Vernunft "ist die höchste Hur, die der Teufel hat."
That is, "Reason is the greatest whore that the Devil has."
1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
ReplyDelete2Co 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2Co 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Mar 4:14 The sower soweth the word.
Mar 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Yes, Dani'el, I have read the Bible too. But even the Devil can quote Scripture. How can I know that you're not the Devil?
ReplyDeleteI would be more impressed by arguments based on facts, not on anecdotes or Bible quotes. Sure, the Bible says that anyone who does not believe in it is a fool; so what? Anyone can say that. Unfortunately, the Bible also says that the Earth was created before the Sun, and that insects have four legs. Sorry, I was paying attention in grade school, and I've seen quite a few insects, so I'm likely to take anything the Bible says with a grain of salt.
Freed,
ReplyDeleteYou said,
"Growing up I never heard the words false convert....."
That's because it is only used by a small minority of Fundamentalist Christians.
Froggie,
ReplyDeleteI don't know if this is to my shame or not, but in the 50+ years I've been a Southern Baptist, the words Fundamentalist, Calvinist, etc are not even bandied around much, and I'm not seeing the need to know all these labels. Call me non-thinking but I'll just have to live with that label I suppose.
"Growing up I never heard the words false convert....."
ReplyDeleteDer Frog- That's because it is only used by a small minority of Fundamentalist Christians.
D- Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
We are witnessing the great apostasy or falling away of the last days.
It's no surprise that good theology is absent from the church in these times.
Freed, myself and many others like us are waking up and coming to a genuine faith after years of slumber.
--------------------
Zilch,
I invite you to my blog for some testimonies that may shake you up a bit. If you can believe me.
God will be showing His hand in judgment soon, and you will have your proof. Then what?
Dani'el: I read your two latest posts, and I'm afraid to say they didn't shake me up a bit. I lived in Berkeley for twelve years, and lots of funny stuff happened: there's lots of crazy people there, and everyone I know has lots of weird anecdotes.
ReplyDeleteWhat will you do at the end of 2009 when no flaming chunks of sulfur have fallen on San Francisco? Will you just do as the TrueBibleCode people have done, and push the date off a bit into the future, rinse and repeat as necessary, or will you perhaps reconsider whether you really have the gift of prophecy?
While we're waiting, how about some evidence from the real world for the existence of your God? Sorry, quoting the Bible doesn't prove anything.
I'll be in the SF Bay Area this summer, but I can promise you, I won't be spending a lot of time worrying about brimstone.
Cheers from chilly Vienna, zilch
Freed,
ReplyDelete"Growing up I never heard the words false convert and because it's used so much, without an explanation"
That is why I posted this post to explain about it. Many false converts believe thy have indeed fallen away but in fact, according to God's Word, they never were Christians.
Are you yourself truly saved? I sure hope so. Something that might be helpful is Paul Washer - Shocking Message.
It is around an hour but strap yourself in this is a very good message and I love this man for preaching such great truth to everyone. BTW he is preaching to a Southern Baptist Church at the time. He was never invited back to to the church but the message did get out and I thank God for that. I will post it to make sure the word gets out. HERE IT IS
Dan,
ReplyDeleteYes I read that article and it was very good.
I just keep hearing the words "false convert" on all the blogs I read and your article explained it best.
Yes, I'm truly saved.
Freed,
ReplyDeleteThanks for making my day!
Not for complimenting my post (BTW thanks) but for the last part!
"Yes, I'm truly saved."
Alright!
Blessings,
Dan
"Yes, I'm truly saved."
ReplyDeleteIs that not something you should know without watching a youtube clip? I thought God made these things pretty obvious to you guys?
ExPatMatt,
ReplyDelete"Is that not something you should know without watching a youtube clip?"
Sure, but more is comforting. I did not know hardly anything about God until that wonderful day when a Christian approached me with the good news.
"I thought God made these things pretty obvious to you guys?"
Sure, once experienced it is obvious. Without it, it will be impossible to understand. I sure thought I was saved for a long time Just look at all the false denominational teachings and false religions out there, including atheism.
So, Dan thinks this is a profound message. That explains everything.
ReplyDeleteexpatmatt,
ReplyDeleteIf you are asking me that question, I'll just say, I haven't watched the YouTube clip yet and don't need to in order to know that I am saved.
But, since Dan is recommending it I probably will listen to it when I have an hour free.
You are right and we should already know. I've known I was saved since I was 10 years old...a long time before blogs and YouTube were invented.
:)
Dan,
ReplyDeleteIn light of your recent comment; I'm going to take this:
"...and false religions out there, including atheism."
As a joke and say no more about it.
Dani'El,
ReplyDeleteI must address your first comment which I have yet to do. For that I appologize.
"I understand what you are saying, and I agree.
With one criticism.
It begins with grace made possible by the cross."
Absolutely! I hope what I said didn't mean that it was by my own works that got me saved. God forbid.
It was God changing me internally and the conviction of my sins hit me like a ton of bricks and I couldn't look at God with gladness anymore but only through a contrite heart. I was ashamed and embarrassed as to what a damaging (false)Christian I was being for all those years. That day I was born again and thanks be to God alone!
"But the first workings of the Holy Spirit are conviction of sin, IMHO.
And that through hearing or reading the law and gospel, which is what I believe you are saying."
Yes! That is what I meant but thanks for that clearer clarification.
Side note: Have you heard of the date May 21, 2011 (just Goggle the date), as the rapture date because its exactly 7000 years after the ark? This coincides with the passage in 2 Peter 3:8 that one day is equal to 1000 years.
Now I admit as to my fascination with this subject, but how do you personally justify Mark 13:32 and Matthew 24:36 in relation the end days, which you believe to be 2030?
Shalom Dan,
ReplyDeleteI have not personally received much knowledge from the Lord concerning the rapture event.
And I see all the "Don't worry. We won't suffer a thing. We're gonna be outta here. That's for the Jews!"
stuff to be dangerous and offensive.
So I don't spend a lot of time on it.
I do see the words,
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain .....
to imply that people will indeed be dying at the time of the rapture.
I'll check on the 2011 date but I believe that the 7th millennium will be a sabbath millennium, so I think it will be 6000 years after creation, and then the millennial kingdom of Messiah.
I reject all this 2012 stuff that people like Van Impe are preaching as they come from pagan calendars and prophets. Garbage.
As to Mark 13:32 and Matthew 24:36.
It's simple. I identify a possible year, no day or hour.
And if you read my blogpost entitled, "Is Apothos asteroid the star Wormwood"
You will see that I see the trib either beginning OR ending in 2030.
Again no day or hour mentioned.
But good for you for being cautious.
It is very rare that anyone even considers what I say, (as God told me it would be) but I always rebuke anyone who does not test and prove me first.
It's far too dangerous a time to be buying any prophets claim in the last days.
(Remember that there will also be genuine prophets of God in the last days. Acts 2:17)
But I have a huge advantage as God has provided a way for you to know.
The judgment of SF and LA to come will be your proof by God's own witness that He sent me, and until that day, please to continue to be skeptical of anyone, including myself.
Baruch Hashem,
Dani' El
Acts 2:17, Brilliant Dani'El!
ReplyDeleteYou are getting me giddy with anticipation. I literally cannot wait and at the very same time I am praying for more time so we can witness more to the lost, a conundrum for sure. Nothing we can do can help 'save the lost' and it is all up to Him so I am extremely confident that He will grab everyone He wants before that very exciting day. Lets just pray it is all of these people that we are talking to here at our blogs. My heart is aching for them and I want God to answer my prayers to change all their hearts and save every last one of them. Please join me in prayer tonight for our lost friends here.
Blessings,
Dan
Amen Dan,
ReplyDeleteI pray for the lost all day long, esp these who talk with us.
Nothing impossible for our God, even to saving a Raytractor, gasp! ;)
And yeah, all will be fulfilled in the fullness of time, at God's command.
Sometimes I don't know whether I should rejoice or mourn. So sometimes I do both at the same time.
Kind of like when the 2nd temple foundation was laid.
Ezr 3:10 And when the builders laid the foundation of the temple of the LORD, they set the priests in their apparel with trumpets, and the Levites the sons of Asaph with cymbals, to praise the LORD, after the ordinance of David king of Israel.
Ezr 3:11 And they sang together by course in praising and giving thanks unto the LORD; because he is good, for his mercy endureth for ever toward Israel. And all the people shouted with a great shout, when they praised the LORD, because the foundation of the house of the LORD was laid.
Ezr 3:12 But many of the priests and Levites and chief of the fathers, who were ancient men, that had seen the first house, when the foundation of this house was laid before their eyes, wept with a loud voice; and many shouted aloud for joy:
Ezr 3:13 So that the people could not discern the noise of the shout of joy from the noise of the weeping of the people: for the people shouted with a loud shout, and the noise was heard afar off.
And Dan, maybe I forgot to thank you for encouraging me to stay on my blog. I appreciate your support.
Baruch Hashem,
Dani' El
Matthew 24:36
ReplyDelete"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."
Commentary:
It is sufficient for us to know that God has appointed a latter day for the restoring of all things; but when it will be is hidden from us all for our sake, so that we may be all the more watchful, so that we are not taken as those were taken in the flood years ago.
Another commentary on Matthew
24:36:
"Of that day and hour knoweth no man." How foolish then to be figuring out the time of the Lord's coming.
I'm with Dan on being giddy with anticipation. All the signs are there that we are in the last days, even minutes, but what is a minute to God? I'd be very skeptical of someone setting a specific date.
Dani'El said...
Nothing impossible for our God, even to saving a Raytractor, gasp! ;)
And yeah, all will be fulfilled in the fullness of time, at God's command. Sometimes I don't know whether I should rejoice or mourn.
And what, in fact, is the day of judgment to the whole world, but the day of death to every one? Time is running out, for sure.
Amo 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
ReplyDeleteAmo 5:19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
Amo 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
Even so, come Lord Jesus!!
Dani'El
ReplyDeleteBut I have a huge advantage as God has provided a way for you to know.
The judgment of SF and LA to come will be your proof by God's own witness that He sent me, and until that day, please to continue to be skeptical of anyone, including myself.
Baruch Hashem,
Dani' El
And after that day we will no longer have any reason to pay attention to you. What will you do when the "prophecy" fails?
You've broken a cardinal unwritten rule in religous apologetics, Dani'El: Don't make any testable predictions.
There's guys out there who argue that the verses Mark 9-18 aren't legitimately part of the bible, so they can avoid some tests (drinking poison) etc.
You should have taken a lesson from them.
This is your lesson Reynold-
ReplyDeleteLuk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
Luk 17:27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;
Luk 17:29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,