How do you justify your faith to a world that wants to explain it away? This is part of the New Atheist movement, which is growing more visible and vocal.Anti-Christian rhetoric is increasing, and atheistic agenda is penetrating all areas of our society.
New York Times best-selling author Dinesh D’Souza welcomes your questions on atheism, agnosticism, apologetics, and more. He will address questions in his upcoming Virtual Book Tour, and this is your chance to register for this FREE event. D’Souza takes tough questions head-on when he debates atheists, so GO AHEAD, submit your question, and register for this Virtual Book Tour—an online, live event to hear Dinesh answer significant questions about Christianity
Author of What's So Great About Christianity is inviting questions. A Live 60-70 minutes Teleseminar Tuesday, November 18, 2008 (8 pm Eastern, 7 pm Central, 5 pm Pacific)This should be interesting and I invite all of you to post questions and listen in HERE
So what questions should we ask? I think I will ask about the "perceived" barbaric situations in the Bible that turns away people.
In effect, certain of our arguments against you would fail against D'Souza -- not because his arguments are necessarily any more sophisticated than yours, but because he accepts the Theory of Evolution.
ReplyDeleteBy admitting the processes of Natural Selection, and Descent with Modification from a Common Ancestor, he also admits that certain well-known biblical passages are necessarily metaphorical and/or allegorical in nature, and thus he can easily defend certain other more damning passages as not being actual reflections of god's will. This line of defense is unavailable to you, and as such, your position is weaker. I'm not intellectually lazy, per se, but I'm also not an actual biblical scholar, so I don't have the time or energy to devote to defeating the arguments offered by someone like D'Souza. This? This is leisurely recreation.
Still, I'm interested in D'Souza's offer, and I'll check it out.
--
Stan
Stan,
ReplyDeleteI always wondered about atheists that rigorously studied the Bible in an attempt to bolster their debate with Christians.
Who cares if D'Souza is a biblical scholar. So what? Unless he can show the validity of the Bible as the word of God he shouldn't be allowed to use it in a debate about the existence of God. By that I mean atheists should hold him to that point.
I believe that the second we start quoting Bible verses we not only concede some validity to that source but we sometimes place ourselves in the position of playing catch up, trying to look up verses that we've already stated that we don't find to be valid.
By accepting the TOE and, therefore, accepting that the Bible isn't inerrant, I fail to see what D'Souza has left it the form of an argument.
Dan: Regarding the email, I, as an atheist, am not trying to destroy people's faith. I'd just like them to keep it to themselves and not press their views on others.
This election, we saw three states invalidate the love lives of many of their constituents on purely religious grounds. They have, in effect, decided that gays and lesbians are, not just lesser citizens, but lesser beings.
I, for one, and deeply bothered by this. When theists stop pushing for laws like Proposition 8, or trying to mandate their very unscientific beliefs into my son's (future) science class; when theists stop electing officials for simply being "good Christians"; heck, when theist stop knocking at my front door, asking if I've "heard the good news" or just pretty much stop having, what I consider, a very real negative impact on my life and the lives of others then and only then might I start listening to claims of persecution.
As it is (here in Western North Carolina), with Christian imagery plastered all over town and multiple religious TV channels (that I'm forced to pay for in order to have cable...or a signal, really), I fail to see where the Christian faith is in any danger at all. You can all relax, now.
/rant
uct- what do you get when you cross an atheist with a Jehovah's Witness? Someone who knocks on your door for no reason at all.
ReplyDeleteDan,
ReplyDeleteYou must be getting desparate to promote D'Souza.
First he is a Roman Catholic, which fundamentalists state are going to hell because they are false Christians. So most of the fundies I correspond with say he is a false prophet.
He is not a bible literalist and comes off an some new age sophist.
I can't imagine why you would be promoting this guy.
UCT,
ReplyDelete"not just lesser citizens, but lesser beings.
I, for one, and deeply bothered by this."
Are you also deeply bothered by fetuses being ripped apart at the limbs? Are abortions OK with you?
Proposition 8 was a triumphant vote. You do understand where marriage originated from right? So why do people, who are enemies of God, want to be called something created by our Creator? Play by His rules or get out, and Prop 8 said the same thing. Either trust God or face him on Judgment Day. You can choose. Prop 8 says you cannot just love the evils of sinning and be welcomed into God's kingdom. You must hate evil and understand Him. Otherwise you lose.
Don't worry the High Priest of this Country of Iniquity will probably be convinced by his peers to make a constitutional amendment on the Federal level that Gays can call themselves something God gave us as a gift, called being married. Then we will all see God's wrath come and we will all know and bow to Jesus.
Froggie,
ReplyDelete"You must be getting [desperate] to promote D'Souza."
Good point but I don't view it like that. Admittedly I haven't read his book. I thought it would be interesting for y'all mostly. I am curious myself also though.
Yea, I just can't see someone being a RCC follower and someone that believes in evolution to be a credible source of knowledge of the Bible. We can look at it as a fun exercise.
Should I call the post, "Stump the false convert?"
Proposition 8 was a triumphant vote. You do understand where marriage originated from right? So why do people, who are enemies of God, want to be called something created by our Creator? Play by His rules or get out, and Prop 8 said the same thing. Either trust God or face him on Judgment Day. You can choose.
ReplyDeleteFine, Dan: if you believe this, don't marry a man. That's your right. But you should not have the right to take away the decision of others to marry a person of the same sex if they want to. What skin is that off your nose? They are going to hell anyway, married or unmarried, according to you, so don't claim that it's for their own good.
And as far as where the institution of marriage comes from: you do know, don't you, that not only Christians get married, but also Jews, Muslims, Pagans, atheists, and all kinds of other hellbound people? There's no evidence that the institution of marriage came from God. Proposition 8 is persecution by a religion, and it isn't pretty.
Personally, I think that marriage, as a religious institution, should not be recognized by the government. Dan's own argument indicates that by creating favorable tax laws for married people, the government is promoting his religion over non-belief -- a clear violation of the First Amendment. On the other hand, if the marriage that the government recognizes is considered entirely secular and unrelated to churches, there is no reason to deny the same benefits to gay people. Unlike abortion, gay marriage cannot, in any meaningful way, be considered harmful to an unwilling party.
ReplyDeletePvblivs,
ReplyDelete"Dan's own argument indicates that by creating favorable tax laws for married people, the government is promoting his religion over non-belief -- a clear violation of the First Amendment.
Don't stop there the "tax laws" themselves are unconstitutional. Remember is isn't against the law not to pay your taxes. Where is Ron Paul when we need him?
Zilch,
"And as far as where the institution of marriage comes from: you do know, don't you, that not only Christians get married, but also Jews, Muslims, Pagans, atheists, and all kinds of other hellbound people?"
Great point. So why do people and society want to be married? Hmm Does it feel right and proper to be in God's Design? Evolution promotes polygamy after all, right?
"There's no evidence that the institution of marriage came from God."
OT they had many wives and concubines but in the NT they instructed one man to one woman.
1 Corinthians 7:2-3 "Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband."
Ah, the beginning of an monogamous relationship. A better way don't you agree?
Dan,
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, wipe your chin. You left a little bile.
Dan said:
"OT they had many wives and concubines but in the NT they instructed one man to one woman.
1 Corinthians 7:2-3 "Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband."
Ah, the beginning of [a] monogamous relationship. A better way don't you agree?"
See, this is my point, exactly. Zilch brings up a perfectly valid point and Dan cites his bronze age comic book to defend his bigotry.
Dan: You do realize that gays and lesbians are human beings, right? You do realize where (you claim) human beings originated from, right? If your god is omnipotent, surely he could stop gay marriage, himself, if he wanted to, right? But he chooses not to. Maybe it's because he respects free will (pfft!)...maybe it's because he doesn't exist. Either way, who are you to decide for these human beings? Who are you to decide for God? You're nobody.
I assume, since you live in California, that you voted for Prop 8. Even if you didn't your response shows that you support it. Please stop for a moment and think about what you've done. You have stripped another human being of their rights; their right to love and to have that love be recognized by others.
Please. Please don't ever, ever...EVER say that yours is a religion of love; of peace; of hope. It is not. It never will be...and this law proves it.
The sad thing is that your post echos the sentiment of so many Christians. That they and their faith are under siege. That the very fact that someone else believes and lives and loves differently than you is somehow an attack on you and your faith.
That is why you might hear an unkind word every now and then. Because, make no bones about it, you and your ilk are oppressors. You are the ones holding other humans back. Please, grow up or get out of the way.
But hey, let's not focus vile things, let's get back to debating...
Dan said:
"So why do people, who are enemies of God, want to be called something created by our Creator? Play by His rules or get out, and Prop 8 said the same thing. Either trust God or face him on Judgment Day."
Please cite you evidence that your God created marriage.
By the way...by "evidence" I mean REAL evidence, not your Bible quotes. Unless, that is, you have definitive proof the Christian Bible is the word of God...
ReplyDeleteZilch said:
ReplyDelete"Fine, Dan: if you believe this, don't marry a man. That's your right."
Zilch,
I actually heard a Christian, on the radio, claim that laws like Prop 8 weren't unconstitutional. He said they applied to everyone and that he, also, couldn't marry another man and that he was fine with that. And that, apparently, actually made sense to him! Ugh!
UCT,
ReplyDelete"By the way...by "evidence" I mean REAL evidence"
Don't you mean "by "evidence" I mean evidence that is acceptable to my presuppositions"
You don't have to like it but the Bible is indeed evidence.
"You have stripped another human being of their rights; their right to love and to have that love be recognized by others."
Wow you sure are full of it today. Their right to love? Why because their relationship is called a civil union instead of marriage? There relationship is so shallow that they can't love unless it's called a marriage? Give us all a break here.
It's because I love them that I voted against Prop 8. I don't want them to go to hell and if they continue in sin they will. To me love isn't coddling someone while they are sinning.
Do you remember what it says in Matthew 22:39 "And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself"
But what does this truly mean? Does that mean we are to love them no matter what they do because we are sinners also? Do we coddle them in their sins, tell them God loves them no matter what? Nope Jesus was clear when he said this. He was telling us what the standard was. The way to show your love to your neighbor is to warn them and their sins will take them to hell.
The only way you can show your love to your neighbor was outlined in Leviticus 19:17-18 "Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbor, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am the LORD." (emphasis added)
I did a post called: It's OK to be Gay? if you want to know the truth on the subject.
Toodles sweetie.
The Qu'ran speaks against homosexual lust but is silent on homosexual love.
ReplyDeleteThis is evidence.
Dan:
ReplyDeleteSorry, the is a book of legends, not historical evidence. Now, it is correct that is doesn't matter whether I like the bible or not. But anonymous writings are not evidence. Anonymous writing with an obvious agenda are entirely unreliable.
Dan- since the only objections you've presented to homosexual marriage are from the Bible, I'll say it again: fine, you are free to not marry a man, and to argue against homosexual marriage for other Christians. But by supporting Prop 8, you are saying that the State should become an arm of the Christian religion, and enforce Christian ideas on everyone: believers and unbelievers alike. Is this true or not? As I said, this is religious persecution.
ReplyDeleteWhy not reinstate the Inquisition while we're at it? Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live says the Bible- are you not being remiss in not pushing an amendment to execute witches too? Is this really the kind of world you want your children to grow up in?
If so, then all I can say is, I'm glad I'm living in a relatively sane and humane society, far away from religious nutjobs who want to destroy human rights and force their religion down our throats.
Dan,
ReplyDeleteYou responded to my comment with,
"Should I call the post, "Stump the false convert?"
That would be more appropriate!
I have read enough D'Souza to know that he is a very smart snake oil salesman. He's basicall invented his own religion in which he has declared himself the high priest.
Kinda like Ray Comfort, except D'Sousa is infinitely
Then, on gayness.
I will tell you something that you can take to the bank lil buddy.
If one of your children turns out to be gay (and you will see it coming when they reach puberty) you will either change your tune in one hell of a hurry, or you will make yours and their life miserable.
I've seen it work both ways, but either way you will know that they did not choose to be gay.
And two questions:
If two gay people have a civil union how does that negatively affect you? and you do know that overt homophobes often times are closet homosexuals, don't you?
Frog
Froggie,
ReplyDelete"If one of your children turns out to be gay (and you will see it coming when they reach puberty) you will either change your tune in one hell of a hurry, or you will make yours and their life miserable."
I have thought about this and I would put my kids through absolute misery and guilt and try my very best to get them to understand God's plan. The alternative is unacceptable. I cannot stand by and watch them go to hell. I would join them in becoming celibate until we find the proper understanding/solution to God's plan for us. I wouldn't abandon them at all. If I fail, they go to hell, and I just can't have that. Look how hard I am fighting to help save even your soul, so how much more do you think I would try to save my own kids?
Look, my kids could very well reject God when they grow up but if I raise them Godly they will not fail or fall. If they do reject Jesus then that knowledge is something that we will have to endure for eternity. Somehow, someway, God will make it right. (Revelation 21:4)
"and you do know that overt homophobes often times are closet homosexuals, don't you?"
Yes, I do know this, just like a bully is the weakest kid in the room or atheists are closet Christians because they want to fight to prove themselves to be right but deep down they know they are wrong. What you think I am stretching the last one? Maybe?
Please read the the It's OK to be Gay? link. I believe you are confused as to what my motives are for gay people. I love them so much I don't want to see them perish, same as you.
God made girls to be girls and boys to be boys. You can try to cover it up but they will always be the one God made them. You do know there is one indication that cannot be covered up by alteration or surgery right? I was in the Navy and we had to know these things traveling into different ports. We didn't want to get caught in a surprise situation.
So the one indication is this: The index finger. If God made the person a boy then the index finger will be shorter then the ring finger. If it is to be a girl then the index finger will be as long or longer then the ring finger. There you have it, the secret sure fire way to see if the person you are with is what they say they are or not. God made them one way.
Zilch,
ReplyDelete"But by supporting Prop 8, you are saying that the State should become an arm of the Christian religion, and enforce Christian ideas on everyone: believers and unbelievers alike. Is this true or not?"
I fully understand your frustrations and it was a very deep thought decision to make. I really don't care if people want to marry their goat even but to promote it?
Just like we shouldn't allow someone to shoot another person just because they want to commit suicide but doesn't have the guts to do it themselves. Sin is sin, it shouldn't be mandated to allow it, at all, ever. Otherwise I would be part of the reason why this country is a country of iniquity.
Do you really want laws to be passed to allow certain sexual perversions? Can a man marry a dog? Why not, are you discriminating against them? They obviously show love and affection to each other, who are you to say otherwise?
What about a man and a boy? If they are indeed "born that way," who are you to not allow it?
Fornication is rampant throughout high schools why not allow the age to marry lowered to a sensible 13 years old like other cultures. So why can't a 13 boy marry a 65 year old man? Come on it's true love, who are you to say otherwise? Who are you to say that polygamy is wrong? If two men or two woman want to marry one spouse, so what. You have no right to say otherwise. If an orgy of 16 men want to marry each other who are you to intervene? Where does it end?
I live in a gay community here and I witness to many. I am not afraid of gay people I want to help them and keep them from destruction. One could make the same arguments and same mentality why heroine and crack is illegal.
Don't worry Obama will probably be pressured to stop this "perceived" discrimination and alter the constitution to allow it on a federal level. Y'all are in charge now,(the liberals) let's see how you treat this country. We shall see the end results in four years. Stay tuned!
"I really don't care if people want to marry their goat even but to promote it?"
ReplyDeleteThat was a false statement sorry. We cannot promote evil period. I do care.
Dan, you've actually hurt your own arguments in discussing what you see as silliness: marriage with animals, lowering the age requirements for marriage, polygamy in its many forms, etc.
ReplyDeleteTrue, bestiality is prohibited in the bible, but the rest are very acceptable. Not just in the bible, now, but also in the many civilizations to follow so-called "biblical" times.
So when Christians cry that "traditional" marriage values are being eroded by legislation such as Proposition 8, they clearly have no idea what they're talking about.
I wonder if you do, too.
--
Stan
Perhaps I'll move my questions u pto the latest thread:
ReplyDelete1.) What does it mean (in your own words) to seek Jesus?
2.) What do you mean when you say, "God's word"?
3.) What does it mean to say that Jesus is the way and the truth?
4.) If way, truth and Jesus are synonomous, then what do they mean.
5.) Can I or anyone else say something which has the same meaning of something in the Bible without knowing anything of the Bible?
In other words; Can one reflect biblical meaning without biblical knowledge?
All of these questions in your own words please. I know you like to quote scripture for authority, but in this instance I'll grant you the authority to speak for yourself.
I'm simply interested in you own personal journey and what it means to you. Perhaps in this way we will all understand you better.
Stan the spin man,
ReplyDeleteYou are a master at your spin. What talent.
The "traditional" marriage was reiterated in 1 Corinthians 7:2-3. It was strange that the Bible had to put rules not to sleep with animals, among others. What perversions were going on to warrant a Law like that? Thank God we were given the Bible. Could you imagine if that stuff went on unchecked what it would be like?
Now we all understand the point for Prop 8. We had to stop it somewhere before it got out of hand like it did in the Biblical days.
Thanks for pointing that out Stan. Are you a Christian in disguise?
Thanks for winning the debate for me.
Dan,
ReplyDeleteyou accuse Stan of spin, but you're clearly falling into the trap of the Slippery Slope Fallacy here by saying:
"Thank God we were given the Bible. Could you imagine if that stuff [beastiality] went on unchecked what it would be like?"
By you're reasoning then, not only would/does every society without the bible have sex with and marry animals, but much worse.
I assume you're familiar with the slippery slope fallacy?
dan said...
ReplyDelete"So the one indication is this: The index finger. If God made the person a boy then the index finger will be shorter then the ring finger. If it is to be a girl then the index finger will be as long or longer then the ring finger. There you have it, the secret sure fire way to see if the person you are with is what they say they are or not. God made them one way."
I'm intrigued about your relatioship with this 'factoid' and would like to toss you a few questions. These are hypotheticals so disregard your current marital status or family situation if answering.
If you're courting a lovely Christian lady who you've known for years and believe you'd love to spend your life with, and just happen to notice that her index finger is longer than her ring finger some time into the relationship, would you just duly note to her (or whatever they are to you) that unfortunately you don't swing that way and that she/he is not a real Christian? Or is this a standard preliminary measure for you when looking for a mate? "Oh, I'm sorry, but you're a man."
The index/ring finger length ratio is likely linked to prenatal exposure to male hormones, and is even believed to correspond with sexual orientation in adulthood. What if your 2 year old girl has a notably shorter index finger? Do you take extra precautions just in case they might be gay, or start treating them as a boy?
Sorry if this seems silly, I'm just taking the scenic route in making the point that you're making a grand overgeneralization. The finger-legth ratio is not as sharply divided as you present, and far from a definite signature of gender. Apparently, God didn't want to make this surefire indicator too certain.
Of course, there's the possibility that you were actually making a joke, in that case, apologies for my missing the proper indicators if they were indeed present.
Also, you left me wondering what these... erm... "surprise situations" were, where you would need such information.
Take care.
- Henri
It sounds like Dan is saying without the Bible, he would be having sex with animals....
ReplyDeleteDan,
ReplyDelete"I have thought about this....."
I am not one bit surprised in any of your answers. I could have written your response for you.
In regards to what I wrote, mark my word, you do not yet know of what you speak. I do.
Then, I am so happy that you decided to display your ignorance of human sexuality.
Dan, You don't even know that there are hundreds of kids born every single day with the wrong body parts relative to their sexual preference.
There are kids that are born with both sexual organs, yes Dan, every day.
Now, it is next to impossible to determine which sex this child actually is, so they wait to see. Then they do surgery.
Well, I am sure that I have inundated your sensibilities, as few as they are, so I'll cut ya loose for now.
Fro bro
"So the one indication is this: The index finger. If God made the person a boy then the index finger will be shorter then the ring finger."
ReplyDeleteThe statistical nature of that study is highly surious. aT BEST IT MIGHT WORK 3% OF THE TIME.
Sorry caps.
Dan, human anatomy is far beyond what you think
Even the Aorta is different in different people, and the nerves that run up the back are bunched differently, organs positioned differently, not to speak of how the brais is wired.
You don't have a clue, lil buddy.
Henri ,
ReplyDelete"and just happen to notice that her index finger is longer than her ring finger some time into the relationship"
Well then she would be a woman then right? I would court her properly. Now if it were the other way around and her index finger was shorter I would look for other signs. I would be diplomatic at first then increase to a more curt attitude if my confidence of being right increases. In the end, I would ask if she liked to watch UFC and if she says yes then I will get my answer. But if she did a great job of concealing the operations up then I would fall back on the good ol' military policy of 'don't ask, don't tell.'
"What if your 2 year old girl has a notably shorter index finger?"
Two words: pink and dolls
"Also, you left me wondering what these... erm... "surprise situations" were, where you would need such information."
don't ask, don't tell. :)
OK, but since you did ask I will tell. There was only one time and it was down it Tijuana when a "girl" wanted to sit next to me in the bar we were at and it was an obvious dude, I wasn't that drunk. I said loudly that it was a dude and went to grab her crotch to prove it and he punched me so hard in my jaw that I saw stars. The four buddies I was with was laughing for hours. So take what I told you as a service announcement for my fellow dudes out there. Don't grab their crotch measure their index finger. Longer then ring you are in the clear.
Froggie,
3% huh? You do have something to back up such an exact figure, I am assuming. I would like to see them please. Oh wait you are pulling numbers out of the sky again. Shame on you. Are you mad at me because your index finger is longer then your ring finger?
BTW what is a "surious"
"not only would/does every society without the bible have sex with and marry animals, but much worse."
It was a flip response but we don't know how the society was back then so one can only assume if a rule had to be made then...
God does know our thought life so if He felt a need for the rule I will take it on faith that He knew what He was doing.
I can't get anything past Adam Nardoli.
OK back to serious:
Andrew,
"I'm simply interested in you own personal journey and what it means to you."
Stop manipulating and lying, you have been caught. All you need for now is the knowledge of breaking God's Commandments and if you are judged by that standard then you will be guilty and deserve the punishment. That punishment is called the second death or hell. If that truly concerns you I suggest you read John in the Bible then Romans and you will perfectly understand how to be saved because God nor I want to see you burn forever and ever in a lake of fire. If you really feel that a fat man promoting peace, karma, and reincarnation can help you from God's wrath then you are sadly mistaken. There is nothing you can do to wash away the crimes you have committed against God. Seek Jesus in God's Word (The Bible)
Oopsie, my bad, time of day apparently correlates with accuracy. Thanks for the correction and answers :)
ReplyDeleteWhile this horse is still gasping for breath on the ground, I'll point out that actually, not at all oddly, male-to-female transsexuals actually appear to exhibit a finger length ratio more similar to females (PubMed). Oh noes.
If finger length is God's infallible indicator, doesn't this indicate that these are women that God placed in men's physical bodies?
It just bothers me when people try make matters appear black or white when they clearly aren't so. I've been pushed far enough listening to Comfort and Friel :p
I'm also highly doubtful of froggie's 3% figure. I couldn't find any reliable source giving any exact statistics, so... Sources or it didn't happen! :)
dan appears baffled...
ReplyDelete"BTW what is a 'surious'"
Mistyped 'spurious'.
BTW what is an 'invantation'? Gee, this is a fun and constructive game.
Dan,
ReplyDeletewhat's your deal? You have a blog dedicated to proving the validity of Christianity (and saving souls) and yet you avoid answering the most simplest of questions. I'm not asking you to prove that God exists, I'm simply asking you what you mean.
You did give an answer to 2.
1.) What does it mean (in your own words) to seek Jesus?
2.) What do you mean when you say, "God's word"?
- The Bible
3.) What does it mean to say that Jesus is the way and the truth?
4.) If way, truth and Jesus are synonomous, then what do they mean.
5.) Can I or anyone else say something which has the same meaning of something in the Bible without knowing anything of the Bible?
In other words; Can one reflect biblical meaning without biblical knowledge?
Dan
ReplyDeleteA couple other notes with regard to the stance you’re taking.
By avoiding answering my questions, slandering me and telling me I’m going to hell shows a couple things.
A.)Generally in competition, sports, debates what have you, when a side begins to loose (or feels they’re behind the 8-ball) they go on the attack. In football, a team that’s behind gets frustrated and starts picking fights with an apposing offense. In debates the looser may begin attacking the other individual’s character or beliefs (the Ad Hominem fallacy). None of this, of course, proves anything.
B.)There as well, by not answering my simple questions may also demonstrate that you haven’t the slightest idea the meaning of your own religion. You want people to believe you’re on to something, to relate through Christianity, but you don’t even know how you relate to it yourself. So again, you resort to bullet “A” above.
C.)There as well, perhaps your blog is one humongous fallacy. Specifically I’m talking about the False Dilemma. This fallacy takes the following form:
1.)Either claim X is true or claim Y is true (when X or Y could both be false, or there are other options, Z)
2.)One says, claim Y is false.
3.)Therefore claim X is true.
In other words Dan, your site is not dedicated to saying anything about Christianity X, but about atheism Y. Your reasoning is that is Y is false so X is true, but of course there is all sorts of other religions out there and all sorts of forms of atheism (not all atheists believe in evolution for example).
Now, you can prove me right [with the above] by answering me with more slander, accusations of manipulation, and quote some more bible verses for us. Or, you can prove me wrong and answer the questions. Or, I suppose, you can avoid me all together and also prove me right. I dno't see how these questions are all that difficult.
1.) What does it mean (in your own words) to seek Jesus?
2.) What do you mean when you say, "God's word"?
- The Bible
3.) What does it mean to say that Jesus is the way and the truth?
4.) If way, truth and Jesus are synonymous, then what do they mean.
5.) Can I or anyone else say something which has the same meaning of something in the Bible without knowing anything of the Bible?
In other words; Can one reflect biblical meaning without biblical knowledge?
henwli,
ReplyDelete"Excellent study find" award belongs to you!
Thanks, that study by PubMed because more or less it proves what I was talking about as actually being true. There is a direct correlation to the (2d:4D) with exceptions of course. It did make me wonder if a hermaphrodite would have a dominate showing, either way, as to the "true" gender of that person. It is more of an indicator for dark lit bars then anything else.
Thanks for the uncontrollable laughter about "invantation" (corrected, thanks)
My brain cell killing days of my youth is showing.
In context, I thought "surious" was a mistake for serious but spurious makes sense. I get "baffled" quite a bit, but that's nothing new. A warm, thank you.
Andrew,
I am fully willing and able to give you the gospel but your soil isn't ready for my seed (that sounds nasty)
The Bible says not to give the pearls to the swine (Matthew 7:6) You are just net ready for the conversation that you are requesting.
Does it bother/concern you that if God judges you that you will spend eternity in hell forever burning in a lake of fire? Do you really/actually care?
I will go from there with the answers you give me.
Hmm... It would appear that Dan cannot answer Andrew's questions. Either that or he is taking the common cult tactic of "no one is allowed to see the inner workings until they are trapped."
ReplyDeleteDan:
It looks to me like Andrew is trying to understand your actual position without first committing to it, himself. I understand the sentiment. But I will ask you a more basic question. Do you consider your beliefs to be that of a cult? Andrew seems quite ready for the conversation he is requesting. That would be that of an outsider trying to understand a group. He is not requesting to become a member of the group.
I note that you called him manipulative. I submit that you are being manipulative with "All you need for now is the knowledge of breaking God's Commandments and if you are judged by that standard then you will be guilty and deserve the punishment" and "The Bible says not to give the pearls to the swine (Matthew 7:6) You are just net ready for the conversation that you are requesting."
Ok Dan,
ReplyDeleteI will address your question; afterwards, however, some reciprocation would be nice. Again, you're essentially proving me right.
You said:
“Does it bother/concern you that if God judges you that you will spend eternity in hell forever burning in a lake of fire? Do you really/actually care?”
Here’s the problem Dan; I can’t answer your question because I’m not entirely sure I understand it. I gather you’re saying that if my behavior in life is consistent with what the bible calls sin, that I will be judged by God for it and go to hell. But I don’t know what “God” is, and I don’t know what “Hell” is. If I take this literally, that there is some being and there is some lake of fire; then certainly that’s something to worry about. However, many religions make the same such claims. What gives yours privilege?
As well (assuming I take what you say at face value), if you say to me that the way to salvation is seeking Jesus, I again don’t know what that means; along with questions 1 – 5 below. Also, since you brought it up in your question above, perhaps you can answer a 6th and 7th question which would be, 6.) What is God? 7.) What is hell? Along with that you could perhaps demonstrate why I should be worried about either of them.
1.) What does it mean (in your own words) to seek Jesus?
2.) What do you mean when you say, "God's word"?
- The Bible
3.) What does it mean to say that Jesus is the way and the truth?
4.) If way, truth and Jesus are synonymous, then what do they mean?
5.) Can I or anyone else say something which has the same meaning of something in the Bible without knowing anything of the Bible?
In other words; Can one reflect biblical meaning without biblical knowledge?
6.) What is God?
7.) What is hell?
8.) Why is your religion the privileged religion?
Regarding finger lengths and gender identification, this little gem (from Henwli's link) couldn't go unnoticed:
ReplyDeleteSixty-three male-to-female transsexuals (MFT)...
What I don't understand is why Mr. FreeThinker is specifically referenced in a study concerning male-to-female transsexualism...
:)
--
Stan
Dan,
ReplyDeleteI take the time to make two comments and of course, you pick out one thing to dispute and ignore all else.
Some times you get out of answering becquse you call Ad Hom, and sometimes because a word is spelled wrong.
That is disengenuous.
Now, to keep accounts square, my 3% statistic came from my brother in law who is a neuro surgeon, and he did cite a study, which I have looked for and cannot find. I will ask him as soon as I can.
So in the meantime I retrtact the statement.
And I can tell you I won't make that mystake again because you have far too many ways of wiggling out from under questions you don't like to answer.
Now, as of 1:45 PM today, there are nine men working in this office building and seven of us are gay, according to the study.
I will need to inform Mrs. Frog of this immediately.
I have found the study in question.
ReplyDeleteFirst, the study is directed toward women than men.
However:
"The 2D:4D ratio of homosexual men
was not significantly different from that of heterosexual men for either hand (P > 0.09)."
Then,
"However, segregating male subjects
based on birth order provided support for the role of fetal androgens in male sexual
orientation. The more older brothers a boy has, the more likely he is to develop a
homosexual orientation."
Just more evidence that sexual orientation is not a "choice."
Pvblivs,
ReplyDelete"Hmm... It would appear that Dan cannot answer Andrew's questions."
Actually it's a refusal to do so. My skin crawls when I speak to a Buddhist because they are the ultimate fence sitters. Even something believes are not allowed to do (Revelation 3:16). I have dealt with Buddhists in the past and it is very difficult to get the gospel across because of all the word games that they play. If one is not willing to read the Bible then my hands are tied. When someone claims that "words are meaningless" I have no choice but to let God handle that heart. Keep in mind he is asking me to describe things, even from my perspective, but he views that words are meaningless. Is that actually logical to you? Keep in mind that if words are actually worthless then why is he pressing to converse with me about God, with words? Are his words meaningless also? If so why are you pressing me to converse with him? I will entertain him a little just for you, you owe me one.
Andrew,
8.) "Why is your religion the privileged religion?"
I have answered that a couple of times in this same conversation, I will just link to it again to save time: HERE
7.) "What is hell?"
I answered that in this same conversation HERE
6.) "What is God?"
I really don't want to get into a discussion on what you call "devas" You may feel the God that we are talking about is created by the individual who talks about it, but it is the God of the Bible no matter how fallible I am in describing Him. He is the Creator of the Universe to communicated to us through His Word (the Holy Bible).
5.) "Can I or anyone else say something which has the same meaning of something in the Bible without knowing anything of the Bible?"
Lying for example? I am not sure what you mean though. Your words are meaningless, right? I will say this though, no matter what culture in any part of the world, It's a proven fact that with ALL people, across all genders and races, the consequences / telltales of when a person lies, are that;
They experience sweaty palms.
They experience induced swallowing.
Their heart rate increases.
Their faces turn red.
They avoid eye contact.
They speak more quickly, etc. etc. (The same old, same old with everyone human being on the planet. Except of course for sociopaths and those who have perfected evil deception.)
O.k., ... so these are physical reactions (that cross all humanity), that occur when people lie, keeping in mind that none of them are at all based upon comfort, self esteem, or integrity,
So, ... If man just evolved, apart from God, in a world where lying cannot be considered as something wrong, ... What on earth are these characteristics that are connected to lying, all about ? HUH ? ... Is evolution really your friend or what ? Did evolution curse you with characteristics that POINT to you as being a LIAR ? ? ?
(Here's a hint, Lying is a spiritual event. It's not merely a physical action. Lying is an offense against God. When His creations lie, He is ashamed of His creation and simply separates Himself. Therefore He has constructed us with built in sensors that perhaps we just might someday, in our blind little, self seeking minds, finally get the big picture.)
4.),3.), and 2.) are self explanatory. All can be found in God's Word (The Holy Bible)
My question to you now is, have you ever read it cover to cover Andrew?
1.) "What does it mean (in your own words) to seek Jesus?" Why do you want to find out something subjectively? For the Objective Truth about God/Jesus one must experience Him through His word like I pointed out earlier. (John 1:1, 1:14)
Jesus has done everything necessary for our salvation Andrew. People, like Buddhists, ask How do we seek God? (John 6:28) and Jesus answered: Not works, but only faith in me is required (John 6:29)
There is nothing you can do to earn salvation. He was paying our fines in His life’s blood so we can leave the courtroom on the Day of Judgment. He rose from the grave and defeated death. What we have to do is repent, which is turn away from sinning and trust in Jesus, that He died on that Cross for your sins and put your faith in him.
Most religions like Catholicism, Mormonism, Buddhism, Hinduism, or Muslims are all false religions. God says that there is nothing that we can do to earn our way to heaven and that is what all these religions are about, that if you follow that 5 pillars or confess your sins to a man or if you say hail to Mary, fast, meditate and do good works enough that it will get you to heaven. Nothing can be further from the truth.
The only thing we can do (not works) to be saved is described in Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized (act of obedience, or Trust) every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Certain religions believe they can do something to earn salvation, it is a gift from God, nothing you do will earn your way to heaven. Ephesians 2:8-9 “For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
Now Andrew, please answer my question.
Froggie,
ReplyDeleteThe more older brothers a boy has, the more likely he is to develop a
homosexual orientation."
Just more evidence that sexual orientation is not a "choice."
Mwahahahahahah
So you just proved it's environment that makes them that way? It's not genetics?
Well the end is near, because we agree on something.
priceless
"Actually it's a refusal to do so."
ReplyDeleteThe possibility of a refusal was covered by my next sentence. Now, you said that Andrew says that words have no meaning and my understanding is a little different. His position seems to be that words have no meaning except insofar as we humens give them meaning.
I think an analogy is in order. Hundred-dollar bills have no intrinsic value. They have a value within society because merchants accept them. Similarly, the meanings of words result from societal conventions.
The link you provided as answer to why your religion is privileged is best summarized as "because my religion says so." Unless one already considers christianity to be privileged, those claims found in the bible lack merit. Sure, the bible says that Jesus called himself the one true path. But, to someone who assigns no special privilege to the bible, that just means that some unidentified person said that Jesus said something a religious con-man might say.
I have a rather broad concept of what constitutes works. Repenting and being baptized qualify as works. Furthermore there is the incessant tying to convert outsiders (more works) to serve as evidence that you are "saved."
Thank you for your answers Dan; lets review your responses shall we. As you go down, I think the circularity will become apparent without me pointing it out:
ReplyDelete1.) What does it mean (in your own words) to seek Jesus?
You answered: For the Objective Truth about God/Jesus one must experience Him through His word like I pointed out earlier. The Bible.
2.) What do you mean when you say, "God's word"?
Your Answer: The Bible
3.) What does it mean to say that Jesus is the way and the truth?
Your Answer: The Bible
4.) If way, truth and Jesus are synonymous, then what do they mean?
Your Answer: The Bible
5.) Can I or anyone else say something which has the same meaning of something in the Bible without knowing anything of the Bible?
In other words; Can one reflect biblical meaning without biblical knowledge?
Your answer: You seem to not understand this question for some reason. So let me ask it in another way:
The sentiments and meaning that the bible reflects (yes, you understand this?) can someone reflect, think, speak, these same sentiments / meanings without Biblical knowledge?
6.) What is God?
Your Answer: Refusal to reply
7.) What is hell?
Your answer: A lake of fire? Refer to the Bible.
8.) Why is your religion the privileged religion?
Jesus Christ who said He alone was the way the truth and the life. This means that all other systems are wrong!
And for an answer of what that means, refer to 4, the Bible.
I’ll grant a non-answer to 6 (I don’t find it to really be a fair question), however I think you should be able to wrap your arms around 5 with my further explanation above.
Pvblivs,
ReplyDeleteAndrew admitted "Perhaps I'll move my questions up to the latest thread:"
So the rest of the conversation is lost in another post. I did address your point "His position seems to be that words have no meaning except insofar as we [humans] give them meaning." in that past post
"Similarly, the meanings of words result from societal conventions."
Fine, but as Ostensive definition points out defining "red" by pointing out red objects -- apples, stop signs, roses -- is giving ostensive definition, as is naming. It is thought that children may learn a great deal of their language ostensively.
Ostensive definition assumes the questioner has sufficient understanding to recognize the type of information being given. In this case, that might be giving Andrew too much credit.
"The link you provided as answer to why your religion is privileged is best summarized as "because my religion says so." I am not pushing some Circular Reasoning here. He is asking me what I believe.
There is no magic reason that anyone's belief system is right or wrong. It is, at best, a personal decision as to what criteria you use to find your spiritual path through life. Most importantly, there is no way that I can make a logical case that my belief system is "more right" than anybody else's. The problem is this. If he is wrong about his then he will perish forever, my frustrations is with that fact. I am pushing him and you towards the Bible, not to drink the kool-aid but to show truth better then I can relate it, subjectively. I cannot show proof because proof is the exact opposite of faith so I am just to have faith that God will reveal Himself to both of you.
"I have a rather broad concept of what constitutes works. Repenting and being baptized qualify as works."
I disagree "Repenting and being baptized" is acknowledgment of the works performed by Christ. Like if you asked me if I saw you run that marathon and all I did was nod yes. Now did I run that marathon for you? Don't get me wrong, works count after salvation to show gratefulness, but will not get you to heaven. that is the HUGE difference between Christianity (acknowledging God) and false religions (man made works)
Again, presuppositions will determine your approach on the evidence. One side is just wrong. There is always someone on the other side of truth.
Dan said: "It's a proven fact that with ALL people, across all genders and races, the consequences / telltales of when a person lies"... (then a list of physical reactions)
ReplyDeleteThat's not been proven.
Adam,
ReplyDelete"That's not been proven."
Can you possibly back this claim up?
I can back it up with many studies and research, can you? There is such a thing as dead giveaways. There is a true scientific validity of polygraph testing.
There is ample of evidence of mendacity. Just look it up.
" I am not pushing some Circular Reasoning here. He is asking me what I believe."
ReplyDeleteAnd I am not disputing that. All belief systems start with certain premises. But reasoning can only work on conclusions, not premises. If you admit directly that your belief that christianity is privileged is a premise of your worldview, you forsake any chance of convincing anyone who doesn't share the premise. On the other hand, if you try to present a premise as a conclusion, you get circular reasoning.
In that previous post, you and Andrew seem to be talking past one another. For example, if I say the bible is meaningless, it doesn't that it doesn't make any claims. But because I don't consider the bible to be reliable, it is a collection of words rather than evidence.
To my mind "works" signifies anything you to do for the purpose at hand. For christianity not to be works-based, admission into the heaven would have to be separate from all works. To use your example, if someone had offered you the trophy if you watched him win and you watched the marathon for that purpose, that would be works toward getting the trophy. Similary a claim that is not works-based means that there is nothing you do (not even repentence and baptism) for the purpose of gaining acceptance.
Andrew,
ReplyDeleteI understand your point but I am not attempting to give you circular reasoning.
Let me try again, Scriptures are reliable and trustworthy historical documents. True?
You could confirmed this by applying the ordinary test of historical criticism to the Scriptures.
If you agree then the Bible is a valid historical record then we can go to the next point, realizing that Jesus Christ claims to be the unique Son of God and that He bases this claim on His forthcoming resurrection from the dead.
Next, we examine the evidence for the resurrection contained in this historic document and find that the arguments overwhelmingly support the contention that Christ has risen from the dead. If this is true, then He is the unique Son of God as He claimed to be. If He is indeed God, then He speaks with authority on all matters.
Since Jesus considered the Old Testament to be the Word of God (Matthew 15:1-4, 5:17, 18) and promised His disciples, who either wrote or had control over the writing of the New Testament books, that the Holy Spirit would bring all things back to their remembrance (John 14:26), therefore we can insist, with sound and accurate logic, that the Bible is God's Word. This is not circular reasoning. It is establishing certain facts and basing conclusions on the sound, logical outcome of these facts. The case for Christianity can be established by ordinary means of historical investigation.
Can you better understand my points with this explanation? Can you understand the authority of the Bible now? Are your presuppositions not allowing you to understand logical truth and evidence?
You still haven't answered my question: Have you ever read the Bible cover to cover?
Dan's Claim:
ReplyDeleteno matter what culture in any part of the world, It's a proven fact that with ALL people, across all genders and races, the consequences / telltales of when a person lies, are that;
They experience sweaty palms.
They experience induced swallowing.
Their heart rate increases.
Their faces turn red.
They avoid eye contact.
I said: "That's not been proven"
Dan said:
Can you possibly back this claim up?
I can back it up with many studies and research, can you?
Okay, you said it was a "proven fact" that "all" people experience these things. Both your links say _some_ people. One link says the polygraph studies came up with a average success rate of 60% measuring these things. I doubt you even read the second link.
One last question Dan, #5 (then perhpas we can get back to the circularity issue. I don't want to get ahead of ourselves here):
ReplyDeleteThe sentiments and meaning that the bible reflects (yes, you understand this?) can someone reflect, think, speak, these same sentiments / meanings without Biblical knowledge?
Dan,
ReplyDeleteI said,
"The more older brothers a boy has, the more likely he is to develop a
homosexual orientation."
Just more evidence that sexual orientation is not a "choice."
You said,
"Mwahahahahahah
So you just proved it's environment that makes them that way? It's not genetics?
Well the end is near, because we agree on something."
The chemistry in the mother dictates the orientation, not a choice.
That was ignorant for you to revel in your seeming exultation in your point. But you point is totally invalid.
At least you are capitulating because you describe "environment" as the time in the womb.
You should read the stuff I sent you before you so ignorantly comment on it.
f
Adam Nardoli,
ReplyDeleteI did say "It's a proven fact that with ALL people" and then clarified it later with:
"(The same old, same old with everyone human being on the planet. Except of course for sociopaths and those who have perfected evil deception.)"
So my question is: Did you just quote mine me for your gain?
Now, as far as the study polygraphs. Is it fair to say that the study of polygraphs are different then the study of lying?
We are talking apples of lying (95%) compared to oranges of equipment to detect said lie(60%). True?
Can you possibly back your claim that all people do not indeed show these signs of lying?
Can you possibly back your claim that all people do not indeed show these signs of lying?
ReplyDeleteHe didn't claim that. He said "That's not been proven." when you said it was a "proven fact" that "all" people, etc...
Chris,
ReplyDeleteOK fine, does he have proof to the claim of "That's not been proven."
Where is that knowledge coming from?
Froggie,
ReplyDelete"The chemistry in the mother dictates the orientation, not a choice."
Since you have a history now of making up things (remember 3%) I will have to ask for your proof of your claim:
I have, for a long time, believed that a weak or absent father has a role in homosexual males. In fact there is a great list that I agree with I found while looking up in Google "weak or absent father" HERE. Please look at all three points for males and females.
According to "The Gay Report" No researcher has found provable biological or genitic differences between heterosexuals and homosexuals that weren't caused by their behavior.
It also appears that even Freud agrees with me and that PDF. To counter the past studies and since the subject recently has been brought up, especially for Prop 8, this California professor says differently. In Biernbaum's study I thought it was hilarious when he claimed:
"You can't make the link between psychological immaturity and homosexuality. It doesn't exist," Biernbaum says. "Yes, gay people do seem to be much more at risk for mental illness, but I think it must be due more to societal factors than psychological factors."
"Biernbaum's current research and a series of other studies have found that homosexual youth are at increased risk for a host of mental health problems - including suicidal thoughts, depression and anxiety."
I am sure we could devote an entire post about it.
"[T]here is no characteristic physiological response associated with lying..."
ReplyDeleteWilliam G. Iacono, PhD, Journal of Forensic Psychology Practice, Vol. 1 (2001), No. 1, pp. 75
Although security screening examinations have been utilized by the government for a number of years, there is no research to support the validity of the psychophysiological detection of deception... Sheila Reed
Department of Defense
and it goes on and on... and these people are quoted on the web-site YOU said to look at (fas.org)
Thanks for that Chris but did you notice the disclaimer at the top? I quote:
ReplyDelete"Due to serious methodological problems that characterize research on CQT validity, it is not possible to use the existing literature to provide a satisfactory error rate estimate. Scientists, including members of the Society for Psychophysiological Research and APA Fellows, hold negative views about the CQT."
This report was posted, in bias, by the Anti-Polygraph.org group so we shouldn't depend on everything we read. This violates the basic tenants of the scientific method:
"the scientific method attempts to minimize the influence of the scientist's bias on the outcome of an experiment. That is, when testing an hypothesis or a theory, the scientist may have a preference for one outcome or another, and it is important that this preference not bias the results or their interpretation."
You need to explore further then that. If you get to use that website as "evidence" then Debunking Atheists should be an adequate peer reviewed website to replace the evolution model with creation model.
Chris I did find that same report posted on fas.org/ so I owe you an apology. I will continue to help show you the proof. Keep in mind I am claiming that everyone shows these telltale signs, unconsciously but obviously if someone is coached (like Politicians) then the tests may be more difficult to observe/test.
ReplyDeleteThis doesn't mean they do not have these signs. Poker pro's are another group I could easily see that would have "control" over these tell signs. So would it suffice and be more accurate if I reduced the claim, instead of all, to most all?
Andrew
ReplyDeleteAs far as #5 is concerned. Are you asking could someone come up with that story without God? (Otherwise please be more specific)
If that is what you are asking then No. As I said in my past post:
"[A] wicked man wouldn't write such a book, a wicked man wouldn't think of themselves as wicked and wretched. Lofty self abasement thoughts, such as the ones in the Bible, wouldn't prevail in a wicked man."
Even if that is possible, please keep in mind that logical possibility of (x) is not the same as adequate justification for (x)
(Wow, I've spent a lot of time reading about the polygraph today! Interesting stuff!)
ReplyDeleteDan, that's probably a better claim but it's still just an assertion. (Until there is further research, I suppose. Maybe.)
Dan,
ReplyDeletewhat's not to understand?
Here's the question again:
"The sentiments and meaning that the bible reflects (yes, you understand this?) can someone reflect, think, speak, these same sentiments / meanings without Biblical knowledge?"
According to you, "thou shalt not kill", is the word of God. That sentence reflects a certain meaning, it's not right to kill people. Can somebody else reflect that same meaning without knowledge of the bible?
The same goes for anything else in the bible relative to meaning. Can one echo the sentiments of Christ without knowing anything about the bible?
Dan,
ReplyDeleteYou said,
"Since you have a history now of making up things (remember 3%) I will have to ask for your proof of your claim:"
Dan, read the study. P>0.09.
You try to slander me when I have already linked the study that shows I am right.
If I did that to you you would be screaming bloody murder,
I demnand an apology.
Dan
ReplyDeleteHow do you explain children born with both sex organs and how would you determine which sex to make them?
Froggie,
ReplyDelete"How do you explain children born with both sex organs and how would you determine which sex to make them?"
I I answered that, sort of.
WHat does this mean:
"Dan, read the study. P>0.09.
You try to slander me when I have already linked the study that shows I am right."
What is P>0.09? I am looking to no avail.
Andrew,
ReplyDelete"Can somebody else reflect that same meaning without knowledge of the bible?"
Can somebody else reflect that same meaning without [a conscience]?
Is that what you mean? The Bible declares that God burned them into your conscience
I have answered that if people are psychopaths, like Scot Peterson, then they cannot discern right from wrong. Otherwise yes all "normal" people know right from wrong because God declared that He designed us that way. OK?
like Scot Peterson
ReplyDeleteScot Peterson, the writer or Scott Peterson the American who was convicted of the murder of his wife?
I should have written:
ReplyDeleteDan,
That's "Scott" with two "T"'s, you student. :)
Dan,
ReplyDeleteSo then, you’re saying that people can naturally reflect biblical sentiments without knowledge of the bible. (of course if God burned them there, it would be just as natural to think in such ways as it would for my hair to be brown, or for me to blink and be a male.)
The obvious next question is then; being that normal sane people can reflect this, and naturally behave in accordance with what you would consider God’s word, then what do we need the bible for? For that matter, how do you know that what is reflected in the bible isn’t simply a “natural” inclination towards what is best for mankind (with God and its applied stories as nothing more then a cultural mythos)?
This is where you answer: “Because the bible says so.”
But of course we can both now see that that answer will simply not do. Perhaps the sane of society crafted a mythos such that the insane would be kept in line with the sane relative to a punishment in hell (just as an example). After all, sane people, (as you have nicely illustrated), don’t require biblical direction as they’re behavior is already consistent with what is generally considered sane.
Perhaps, Dan, your insistence in the bible as absolute truth is a result of your own insanity and fear over your own sin as it relates to it. Perhaps the sane have dogmatized you to a degree that your fear has gotten the better of you and this blog is merely a way of trying to pull the sane (good atheists, humanists, sane Christians, Buddhists, Muslims) down to your level.
Furthermore, if ones thoughts and behavior are consistent with biblical sentiments, what need is there to believe in the objective nature of a man who may or may not have lived and died 2000 years ago. In other words, what use is this objectivity to an individual whose actions are righteous as they are?
It seems to me, Dan, that those in need of the mythos, bed time stories and the like, are people like yourself who for some reason or another can’t seem to live with themselves. As a result you throw stones of disdain and rebuke at folks who are homosexual, who get abortions, who follow science as a means of making human life better, who don’t agree with you, so on. You call all of us (who don’t share your beliefs) sinners, and that we’re going to hell; but the only real hate and sin I’ve seen flung around has been typed from your hands.
It is generally a given that what one criticizes about people, and what one finds fault in with other people, are the vary things that one finds fault in themselves.
Judge not, lest ye be judged. Before you tell me or anyone that we’re going to hell, why not check your own salvation Danny boy. Now go quote us some more bible versus, it really seems like we’re all catching on; or perhaps, none of us need it because we’re the sane ones.
Cheers,
Andrew
Chris,
ReplyDelete"That's "Scott" with two "T"'s, you student"
Brilliant, see what I get for not fact checking. Keeping it honest can only be a good thing.
Oh yea BTW:
"I should have written:"
You did write it, you student.
Andrew,
ReplyDelete"it would be just as natural to think in such ways as it would for my hair to be brown, or for me to blink and be a male."
The Bible claims this? Is that rational to believe a mere assertion of a mere logical possibility? If we accept mere assertions of bare logical possibilities as grounds for truth we should believe all mere assertions.
Remember that mere logical possibility of (x) is not the same as adequate justification for (x).
Instead of a flip question I will treat the next question as an honest one.
"being that normal sane people can reflect this, and naturally behave in accordance with what you would consider God’s word, then what do we need the bible for? "
Simple...Salvation.
But let me break and use your logic for a moment; you don't see the benefit in such an ancient book? Same reason why you need any other books of antiquity, to know and understand our past. Do you think the monastery at Thotlakonda, who was meticulously writing down the history and teachings of Buddha, was wasteful to do so? How would you even have your religion with out it? Buddhism today, has those writings to reference, as the archaeology of early Buddhism. So are you claiming that it's not understandable that God used whitings to get His message out? By using men as pens could He get the message of Salvation out to the masses way into the future? So my question now again is, are you just being difficult or illogical?
"with God and its applied stories as nothing more then a cultural mythos"
You might want to cover that up, your presuppositions are showing.
"This is where you answer: “Because the bible says so.”"
This is where you answer: “Because Buddha (some dude) says so.”
First I will address this: "Perhaps, Dan, your insistence in the bible as absolute truth is a result of your own insanity and fear over your own sin as it relates to it."
Perhaps, Andrew, your insistence in Buddha (some dude with kool-aid) as absolute truth is a result of your own insanity and fear over your own sin as it relates to it.
Do we really need to play these tired games?
"down to your level."
You might want to cover that up, your presuppositions are showing.
"After all, sane people, (as you have nicely illustrated), don’t require biblical direction as they’re behavior is already consistent with what is generally considered sane."
What you have done is so transparent. Apples to oranges. You ask a question and try to insert it into your equations. Keep in mind you "pressed" for an answer as to can people know right from wrong without the Bible and then you have some nerve to insert it here?
Consider the Bible the 10 o'clock news then. You need the Bible for salvation, not counting the 1000 or so people that witnessed the event, mankind needed to hear the story on how to get SAVED! Without the Bible yes everyone knows right from wrong but not that God can save us. We would otherwise never know the reality that someone came to pay your fine so you wouldn't have to spend time in jail. God came as a man to take the punishment for your sins; sins are transgression or breaking God’s law. Jesus died on the cross so that he took the punishment for the sins of this world for your sins and my sins; he was being bruised for our iniquity, the Bible says. He was paying our fines in His life’s blood so we can leave the courtroom on the Day of Judgment. He rose from the grave and defeated death. What we have to do is repent, which is turn away from sinning and trust in Jesus, that He died on that Cross for your sins and put your faith in him. Let him lead your life, then you will be forgiven of all your sins and have eternal life. Isn’t that great news!
Now tell me without the Bible how would I understand or know that?
"what need is there to believe in the objective nature of a man who may or may not have lived and died 2000 years ago. In other words, what use is this objectivity to an individual whose actions are righteous as they are?"
Yawn, see above.
"but the only real hate and sin I’ve seen flung around has been typed from your hands."
Really? how many times have you lied? stolen? lusted after someone? desired something that didn't belong to you? Hated or cussed at anyone ever? Well then you, admittedly, have broken God's Laws. The Bible says that all liars have their part in the lake of fire and no thief or adulterer (person that lusts) will inherit the Kingdom of God. I am not accusing you these things, you are. You know if you have broken God's Laws. I am not your judge, God is.
The thing flung is all over your face. God does exist, and He came as a man here on earth to pay for your sins. By sins I mean breaking the Ten Commandments which are God’s law. The law was made as a mirror for us. In the same way, we don’t realize what a bad state we are in until we look into the "mirror" of the Ten Commandments. The penalty is death. But God doesn't want that to happen to you, nor do I. I don't want you to drink and drive, but if you do, then you will go to jail; and if you have lied, stolen or lusted after anyone then you will spend eternity in hell.
Ray spiel:
Think of it this way... Imagine you're in a courtroom; you're guilty of many serious crimes. The judge says, "It's a fine of $500,000, or prison." You don't have anywhere near that amount of money, so the bailiff begins to walk you out of the courtroom when someone you don't even know appears. He runs up to the judge with a check and says, "I've paid the fine for you." Now that the fine has been paid, the law no longer has any hold on you. You're free -- because of the gift you were given. Wouldn't you feel grateful for that kind of kindness?
If you will repent of your sins and put your trust in Jesus, God says he will forgive all your sins and grant you the gift of everlasting life. Just like the court case, if you repent (that means to confess and forsake your sins) and put your trust in Jesus, then you will not have to suffer God's justice in Hell because the payment for your crimes was made by Jesus on the cross.
Get it?
"Judge not, lest ye be judged."
Do you even understand that verse? Please, read my post about it and maybe it will help you.
"Before you tell me or anyone that we’re going to hell, why not check your own salvation Danny boy."
Exactly! In order for me to judge other, I must make absolutely sure I am saved and have judged myself first. Remember I am not telling you to go to hell, I am saying the Bible says if you die in your sins that you will. Use it as a public service warning/message.
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ReplyDeleteOh,
ReplyDeleteby the way Dan, "Pulp Fiction" is one of my favorite movies, I'd say I've seen at least 50 times. I actually thought your use of it sorta fit the occasion. Not that I agree, but it was good for a chuckle (in a good way mind you).
What was in the case?
In all intellectual debates, both sides tend to be correct in what they affirm, and wrong in what they deny.
ReplyDelete~John Stuart Mill~
Andrew,
ReplyDelete"by the way Dan, "Pulp Fiction" is one of my favorite movies, I'd say I've seen at least 50 times."
Thanks for your honesty with that, unfortunately it confirms my accusations that you manipulate and are a liar. You are a real horrible person. Repent and trust in Jesus today!
For proof of your manipulation before this revelation that you love Pulp Fiction you said and I quote FROM HERE:
"I believe I'm aware of the movie you're speaking of, however I'm not a big fan of vulgarity and violence."
I hope I showed that Buddha cannot help you when you face God on Judgment Day. When we die we die alone, and nothing Buddha does will help you. Please understand what I said and think about it, that is all I ask. Nothing in life is more important then your salvation.
How do you know I'm still not manipulating you, Dan?
ReplyDeleteAndrew,
ReplyDeleteI don't, that is why I conveied to you:
"unfortunately it confirms my accusations that you manipulate and are a liar. You are a real horrible person. Repent and trust in Jesus today!"
Dan, are the comment rules just for other people?
ReplyDeleteYou are a real horrible person.
and so on...
not attack them personally.
...
personal attacks is no way to do it.
...
Personal attacks is unnecessary and wastes our time.
Chris,
ReplyDelete"Dan, are the comment rules just for other people?"
Valid point, but can I explain?
I did not say that to attack him. I said that because of his denial that he is indeed a horrible person. (Romans 3:19,Romans 7:7-8)
His religion of Buddhism says if he does good then he can achieve nirvana. I was showing him that he is even failing that and that there is nothing we can do once we break God's Law. We are at the mercy of His court and we will be punished.
Until one realizes of his impending doom they will not have an understanding. To approach God we must have a broken and contrite heart (Psalm 34:18,Psalm 51:17) to fear Him (Proverbs 9:10) because it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Hebrews 10:31)
I was doing my job according to 2 Corinthians 5:11: "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences."
So I wasn't attacking him I was trying to save him from him and his pride.
So you see, it's out of love I am calling him a manipulating lying horrible person. (Poe's law may apply for this last part) :)
"out of love"?
ReplyDeleteAnd your god sounds like a monster.
Chris,
ReplyDeleteThink of it like a spanking to a child for insistently running out in the streets after repeated warnings. It's out of love you spank the child to save their life, they will "fear" the spanking but learn to respect and "honor" the parent. There is little difference between that good parent and our Heavenly Father.
It takes far more love to confront then to ignore the situation, perfect love is a constant confronter.
Think of it like a spanking to a child for insistently running out in the streets after repeated warnings. It's out of love you spank the child to save their life...
ReplyDeleteThis "spanking" is a lake of fire! Torture is not love.
Wrong Chris,
ReplyDelete"This "spanking" is a lake of fire! Torture is not love."
The loving corrections or spankings is: The Word (the Bible) explaining how wicked you are and you are in need of a Savior or the parent waning of the dangers of running into the streets (sin); The constant Barrage of people witnessing to you; Your conscience acknowledging the Gospels but your intellect not accepting it; The realization that life here is temporary and at the same time, with purpose.
Hell, the lake of fire, called the second death in Revelation 21:8, is getting hit by the car or truck after the repeated and ignored warnings. The result of your stubbornness and wickedness. (Acts 8:22)
BTW your are right Torture is not love. But who said God loves wickedness? (Psalm 45:7) You did hear what God did to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah (Admah, and Zeboim also) right? Was that out of love or justice? He is a just and righteous God.
The constant Barrage of people witnessing to you;[ at me, saying different things.]
ReplyDeleteYour conscience acknowledging the Gospels [Um, no.]
but your intellect not accepting it; [yes]
The realization that life here is temporary [and shouldn't be spent being afraid of unproven invisible monsters...]
So, who created this Hell that you believe in? Who threatens to throw you in? And how is infinite torture "love" or "justice"?
Chris,
ReplyDelete"So, who created this Hell that you believe in?" You don't know? God, who else?
"Who threatens to throw you in?" You don't know? God, who else?
"And how is infinite torture "love" or "justice"?"
Now that is one I will stumble on. In my subjective view, I don't know. I tried to explain about evil here.
Sadly, this also goes for my own children too. If they reject Jesus then they will have that same fate and I hate it and will do anything to prevent it.
When you lie to someone(sin by breaking the 9th Commandment) you are not lying to that person but to God Himself. Lying is a spiritual event. It's not merely a physical action. Lying is an offense against God. When His creations lie, He is ashamed of His creation and simply separates Himself.
"If I lie to a child, I'll get away with it.
If I lie to my wife, I'll be sleeping on the couch.
If I lie to a police officer, I'm obstructing justice and I'll go to jail.
If I lie to a judge, it's called perjury, and I'll go to prison.
If I lie to the government, it can be called treason, and the punishment might be death.
So how much more egregious is a lie to God?"
All I can do rationally is plead with you to do the right thing. Seek Jesus Repent and Trust in Him.
Ok, Dan,
ReplyDeleteI'm gonna start trusting in Jesus now. Now where did I put that Bible?.....
No matter, tonight I'll find myself a cheap hotel and steal the bible off the bedside table. Then it's Jesus time. Do you think God will forgive me for stealing the bible? I'm it's not like anyone at a cheap hotel is reading it anyway. And don't you find it sort of odd that people always go out of they're way to take the towels but no-one ever takes the bibles?
Dan, you want to worship the monster who will torture members of your family?
ReplyDeleteCould you imagine setting your own children on fire? How evil it is to call such a thing "love" or "justice". If your god existed, He would be evil.
If I lie to a police officer, I'm obstructing justice and I'll go to jail.
ReplyDeleteIf I lie to a judge, it's called perjury, and I'll go to prison.
-because someone else may go to jail wrongly. Or deprived of their property.
If I lie to the government, it can be called treason, and the punishment might be death.
-because treason hurts the country.
So how much more egregious is a lie to God?
-Gods can't be hurt, injured or deprived of their freedom or property so a lie to a god would be nothing.
And don't you find it sort of odd that people always go out of they're way to take the towels but no-one ever takes the bibles?
ReplyDeleteNot at all, Andrew. After all, nowadays you can just download a Bible for free. I don't know of any source for towels you can download. Not that I would ever steal anything (I'm an atheist, fer cryin' out loud), but I would take the towels too, given a choice.
Tonight is the night
ReplyDeleteDATE: Tuesday, November 18
TIME: 5pm PACIFIC /6 pm MOUNTAIN/7pm CENTRAL /8pm EASTERN
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