November 24, 2008

Paul Washer - Shocking Message

I beg every single one of you to listen to this message. This is one of the best and most powerful Biblical messages that I have ever, ever, heard. He is actually speaking the truth and that is exactly what we all need, and hopefully want, to hear. It is a hour long, but it will be the best hour you have ever spent in your life. At the time he was talking to a Southern Baptist Church youth group and needless to say he was never invited back again.

Many of the same points and questions atheists ask are reiterated and addressed in what Washer is talking about. Please stop for a moment, even if it is the one last time, ask God to show you the truth before you watch this. Open your mind and ask God to convict your heart, if He truly exists. Strap in folks we are going for a very bumpy ride!

Here is the link to the video, in case it gets choppy on you. Sometimes its best to go right to YouTube for it.



If that is not enough and you hunger for more then here is an 8 part sermon that angered many.

65 comments:

  1. I've already seen this, Dan. The problem is, what Washer says is meaningless if you don't already believe in the Bible.

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    1. You are correct. Please see my resonse Nov 17 2015, Steve

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    2. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  2. In watching this, am I going to be required to accept the validity of the Bible in order to find meaning in it?

    Dan, why do you keep doing this?

    BTW: I am going to watch it all, and will comment when I have time.

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  3. A few thoughts:

    First and foremost, I like the guy for being sincere, and for pointing out the ease which hypocrisy is mistaken for righteousness. He seems to make sense, and at least be trying to be consistent.

    Second, it's indeed true that, in order to find any of his speech convincing, I need to *first* accept the validity of the Bible. Really, no matter how many times I'm told what I should be doing, until that moment when I've conceded that the Bible is the book y'all are trying to tell me it is, it wont matter.

    Third, I really can't see why this speech is any different from any other. Preachers very consistently VARY which passages they emphasize - and this is one of the reasons I have a hard time accepting the Bible. Find me one preacher who points to scriptural evidence that God is wrathful and I'll show you one points to a different passage claiming that God is all loving.

    Y'all have been interpretting the same stuff for 1500+ years, and you're no closer to the truth. You like to think otherwise - in fact Washer himself begins the speech with a bit about false (carnal) Christians, but then goes on to assume his message contains truth/righteousness that the audience lacks.

    Sorry, I don't find this compelling. Admirable? Yes. But utterly unconvincing to someone who doesn't already hold the Bible to be the word of God. The latter is a book written by humans who were possibly trying to describe the divine (of what they thought was divine).

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  4. Can you sum it up in a few sentences. It goes for an hour.

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  5. Chris,

    "Can you sum it up in a few sentences. It goes for an hour."

    Invest in the hour, its worth it.

    Wem,

    The latter is a book written by humans who were possibly trying to describe the divine (of what they thought was divine).

    Do you have any compelling evidence to this belief you have?

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  6. Dan, you said to WEM;

    "Do you have any compelling evidence to this belief you have?"

    Interesting...

    Remember when I said that creationism wouldn't get a fair hearing in scientific circles because of the lack of evidence and you agreed but essentially said that you didn't care?

    Remember?

    Here, I'll jog your memory:

    I said, in reference to creationism; "Whatever floats your boat, but if there's no evidence then it won't be accepted by mainstream science. Sorry."

    And you said; "You are right. sigh"

    In the same thread, you said; "I rephrased that statement to: Faith in Christ, is for everyone's salvation and a creation explanation. Explanations of creation are in the Bible and the purpose is to glorify Him. Forced into science? Who cares, get saved!"

    So my question is; why are you asking WEM for evidence when a) you don't really think evidence matters and b) you won't consider evidence that contradicts your current worldview anyway?

    Thanks,

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  7. Wem quoth thus-Find me one preacher who points to scriptural evidence that God is wrathful and I'll show you one points to a different passage claiming that God is all loving.

    D- He is both.
    Let's say you have some kids you adopted. You raise them up, teach them your ways. Love them as your own.
    But the neighbors who hate you, hate them too and attack, persecute and even kill them.

    You would be loving and just at the same time when you love your kids enough to give them justice.

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  8. ExPatMatt: what you said. Dan is indeed very fickle about what he demands evidence for. I'd just like to add my €0.02 worth to your answer.

    I'll recap: Wem said

    The latter is a book written by humans who were possibly trying to describe the divine (of what they thought was divine).

    Dan asked:

    Do you have any compelling evidence to this belief you have?

    Dan: I would say that the default position for books is that they are written by humans, wouldn't you? This also applies to books that try to describe the divine, such as the Bible, the Bhagavad-Gita, Magic Inc., and Jitterbug Perfume. Or do you start from the standpoint, that without "compelling evidence" that they were written by humans, that they should all be considered as being divinely inspired?

    If you single out the Bible for requiring "compelling evidence" that it is not written by humans, then the burden of proof is on you to show "compelling evidence" that it is divinely inspired. Not only do you have to show us evidence for the existence of God, but you have to show why Jehovah is the real one, and not, say, Krishna, Heinlein, or Robbins.

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  9. Dani'el- you say:

    ou would be loving and just at the same time when you love your kids enough to give them justice.

    Just like God gave those Amalekite kids, right? That was loving and just at the same time. I guess you could call it "tough love".

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  10. Zilch,

    "If you single out the Bible for requiring "compelling evidence" that it is..."

    I thought we have been down this path before?

    ExPatMatt,

    "So my question is; why are you asking WEM for evidence when a) you don't really think evidence matters and b) you won't consider evidence that contradicts your current worldview anyway?"

    I do remember saying that in a frustrated state that I was in at the time. I do care for truth but not what people claim is true. Objective vs Subjective, fair?

    The point here isn't that I care or not the point is WEM is claiming something as fact. I am now interested in how he concluded to this assumed fact.

    Point a), Evidence does matter and you are confusing me. At what point did you think I believed evidence doesn't matter? Was it when I said "Forced into science? Who cares?"

    This was more of a I give up moment in frustration. I perfectly understand that science would require evidence and has plenty to chose from and God wants us to have faith with the current and existing plethora of evidence out there. It just isn't "enough" for secular scientists and atheists.

    As to point b), you might be entirely right here because I have some overwhelming experiential evidence. For me to discount God altogether you would have to really bring your "A" game. Its possible to change my mind but highly improbable. From my point of view it would be like convincing me that the moon is made of goat cheese. In other words, the evidence better be overwhelming for me to even entertain those ridiculous thoughts.

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  11. Dani'el wrote You would be loving and just at the same time when you love your kids enough to give them justice.

    Of course.

    But preachers really don't fill pews or seats by talking about sensible stuff. This is why Washer tells his audience to reject the all loving God, and instead ponder a being very restrictive (when it comes to "becoming a club member in good standing").

    Really, God is portrayed as one or the other, but not both. The sermon is tailored to support some basic theme, and such themes are rarely "God makes sense".

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  12. Dan said The point here isn't that I care or not the point is WEM is claiming something as fact. I am now interested in how he concluded to this assumed fact

    All books on this earth were written by humans.

    Yes, this is fact.

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  13. Zilch,
    When God brought Israel out of Egypt, all the peoples in Canaan and ed om heard about the destruction of Pharaoh's armies and the plagues that God sent in Egypt and they left Israel alone.
    All but one. The Amalekites.

    Don't think the Amalekites were being brave, they attacked the stragglers, the old, sick, and young as Israel traveled through the desert.

    God then determined judgment on the Amalekites. The Amalekites who would burn their children alive on a flaming idol. Who raided and enslaved their neighbors. They were a vicious and cruel people and God decided to break that chain so no more would be born and be sent to hell. In that sense it was also merciful.

    But King Saul disobeyed and spared the life of Agag. According to the traditions (extra-biblical) Agag slept with his handmaid the night before Elijah executed him and she had a son.
    One of whose descendants was Haman, a precursor to Hitler, who tried to exterminate the exiled Jews of Persia hundreds of years later.

    Est 3:1 After these things did king Ahasuerus promote Haman the son of Hammedatha the Agagite, and advanced him, and set his seat above all the princes that were with him.

    So Saul's disobedience nearly cost the lives of thousands of Jews. Saul had no idea of the cost of his disobedience but God did.

    God delivered Israel by putting Esther, a Jewess, in the king of Persia's harem and this deliverance is celebrated every year in the Purim holiday.

    Many of the so called palestinian people in Israel today are Amalekites and they viciously attack old men and women, children, to this day with terror attacks.

    The Amalekites are one of the peoples listed in the upcoming attack by a league of arab peoples against Israel.

    Psa 83:4 They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.
    Psa 83:5 For they have consulted together with one consent: they are confederate against thee:
    Psa 83:6 The tabernacles of Edom, and the Ishmaelites; of Moab, and the Hagarenes;
    Psa 83:7 Gebal, and Ammon, and [Amalek]; the Philistines with the inhabitants of Tyre;

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  14. Ya know what, Dan? From now on, you're getting a new Whateverman.

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  15. wem-But preachers really don't fill pews or seats by talking about sensible stuff.

    D- And that is exactly what Washer is denouncing. The ear tickling pastors and the heresy of decisional regeneration (sinner's prayer, altar calls etc).

    If you realize that the great apostasy of the last days is fulfilled, a "falling away" that is loudly warned about in the NT then you would know not to judge christianity by the preachers on tv.

    2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

    2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
    2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

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  16. Dan- you're doing it again: instead of answering me, you just link to a post where we discussed a similar but not identical issue. Well, I reread that post, and with all due respect, you got pwned. So I repeat: Washer's message is meaningless unless you already believe in the Bible, and I don't, and I haven't seen any reason to.

    Dani'el: yes, as I've already said, I too have read the Bible. I know the story of the Amalekites. And I say: anyone who orders the killing of children is a monster. You say:

    They were a vicious and cruel people and God decided to break that chain so no more would be born and be sent to hell. In that sense it was also merciful.

    Hitler could have said the same thing: that God told him to kill all the vicious and cruel Jews as an act of mercy. This is why fundamentalist belief can be dangerous: it can justify any atrocity by saying that God ordered it, and that any innocents who are killed will go to Heaven.

    Many of the so called palestinian people in Israel today are Amalekites and they viciously attack old men and women, children, to this day with terror attacks.

    Evidence? None. But I guess you don't need any. I just hope you are never in a position to kill anyone.

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  17. z- And I say: anyone who orders the killing of children is a monster.

    D- Do you support abortion "rights?"

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  18. Dani'el: if you don't support abortion rights, how can you condone God's killing of children?

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  19. If you condemn God for killing children, how can you not condemn yourself for supporting abortion?

    You are not God who knows all things. If God chooses to take a child home to himself? Or you commit mass murder in your heart?

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  20. Dani'el: fetuses are not children. I know that Christians are fanatic about preserving lumps of cells, but after they are born and grow up, they send them off to kill and be killed with nary a thought. Sorry, doesn't wash with me.

    And since God does not exist, the atrocities that are committed in his name are just that: atrocities. Any fanatic can say that God spoke to him and told him to kill, and that God will take the innocents home: it is the ultimate excuse for committing genocide. And there is no way of telling if God spoke to these fanatics or not.

    If you believe that God speaks to you, and you would obey him if he ordered you to kill children, then all I can say is: stay away from my kids. I would defend them with my life against anyone.

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  21. Dani'el wrote D- And that is exactly what Washer is denouncing. The ear tickling pastors and the heresy of decisional regeneration (sinner's prayer, altar calls etc).

    Although I understand what you're saying, it seems you missed the point I was trying to make.

    Washer's message is different from other preachers. Who's message is "correct"? Since Bible appears to back them all up, depending on how it's interpretted, by what standard can you agree with one and not the other?

    Are you simply agreeing with Washer because he appears to subscribe to the "tough love" idea? If so, that's your standard - not God's.

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  22. Zilch.

    "I know that Christians are fanatic about preserving lumps of cells, but after they are born and grow up, they send them off to kill and be killed with nary a thought. Sorry, doesn't wash with me."

    So you see no difference between murdering a baby and serving in the military? You are kidding right? Sick joke if you are.

    You have a daughter right? Did you see her little arms and legs and head half way through the birth? Did you hear her heart beat?

    With todays technology we see very clearly when life begins and that is at conception.

    Watch this entire show please and hopefully you will get some understanding of what you said. Its called "In the Womb"

    After watching it can you honestly still say that it is merely lumps of cells?

    I thought you were better and even kinder then this Zilch. You have really disappointed me. Thanks for proving God's view, you are wicked indeed.

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  23. Zilch,

    At least look at the 6/10 video talking about 18 weeks in the womb. Can you honestly say that the baby isn't a human?

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  24. Dan: Is is human when it looks nothing like a human? When it has a tail? When it has gill slits? If a fetus at that stage was brought out of the womb and kept alive, would the parents consider it their child?when it wiggled its tail, would everyone say oh how cute?

    As for the other stuff, you Christians can keep arguing about who is the true Christian. At least you're not killing one another over anymore.

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  25. @ Wem,
    All preachers should be teaching the full council of God.
    By God's grace Washer and a handful of others are doing so and it is working to light a fire under many lukewarm christians.

    I understand your point, but like I said, we are witnessing the great apostasy of the last days.
    An apostate preacher will work bits of truth into his deception to keep his cover up.
    Satan teaches this deception.

    2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
    2Co 11:14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
    2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

    Wem- Are you simply agreeing with Washer because he appears to subscribe to the "tough love" idea? If so, that's your standard - not God's.

    D- I've heard many of Washer's sermons and he teaches the full council of God.
    If that's what you call tough love then yes, that is God's standard.
    God chastens and corrects all that He receives as children.

    Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
    Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

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  26. Dan
    Watch this entire show please and hopefully you will get some understanding of what you said. Its called "In the Womb"

    After watching it can you honestly still say that it is merely lumps of cells?

    I thought you were better and even kinder then this Zilch. You have really disappointed me. Thanks for proving God's view, you are wicked indeed.

    Dan, you hypocrite! Isn't it your god who himself ordered the deaths of: pregnant women and babies who's already been born?

    No one who loves and worships such a being (assuming for the sake of argument he even exists) has any right to call anyone else "wicked" because they are "pro-choice". At least with pro-choicers, the mother has a choice, and she's not also killed unlike when your god wanted it that way.

    Besides, most abortions, as I understand it, take place before a nervous system is even developed, so there's no pain, and no brain to even put a "soul" into.

    I'll let someone who knows more correct me on that if I'm wrong.

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  27. If you condemn God for killing children, how can you not condemn yourself for supporting abortion?

    You are not God who knows all things. If God chooses to take a child home to himself? Or you commit mass murder in your heart?


    As I've mentioned before, abortion doctors are god's greatest gift to the world -- they send more souls to heaven than any preacher ever could...

    ...if you believe that's what happens, of course...

    In reality, the question of abortion is two-fold, and I'll focus first on the chicken versus the egg aspect. What do I mean? It's simple, really, and it struck me as I contemplated my wife's food allergy versus my son's food allergy.

    My wife is allergic to chicken, but not to eggs.

    My son is allergic to eggs, but not to chicken.

    So if biology can accurately predict the point at which my son ceases to be allergic to a developing egg (read: chicken fetus), or the point at which my wife becomes allergic to a developing egg, and if the predicting theory can be likewise be applied to developing human fetuses (sans cannibalism, of course), we can at that point answer the question of when is a fetus a human being.

    Notice that there are as many as two points in the development of the chicken egg that could "count" -- the point at which my son ceases to be allergic needn't be the same point as the one at which my wife becomes allergic, and there may be a period during which they are both allergic. To appease you, I'll take the earlier point.

    This exercise should produce an acceptable point in a fetus' development before which an abortion is allowed, and after which it is not (except in emergency cases).

    Are you willing to meet me in the middle, per se? (I'm guessing, "no" -- if this is the case, it's too bad only one of us is honestly respecting the other's position)

    The second issue with respect to abortion is the fact that it is a symptom of a larger problem -- unwanted pregnancy.

    Rather than worry about abortion, if we eliminated unwanted pregnancy, abortion itself would naturally vanish. It's sickening that post-pubescent humans seem to believe it's somehow their right to bear children, and it's equally sickening that certain groups of post-pubescent humans seek to prevent most prophylactic methods, or at least the education of [potentially] sexually active persons regarding the proper use of said prophylactics.

    Parenting is not a right. It is a privilege, and it is a tremendous responsibility. People should be required to demonstrate reasonably consistent earning potential, knowledge of childcare techniques, and an ability to handle the responsibility prior to being allowed to have children.

    It should be legislated.

    Sure, it's a fascist quagmire if done improperly, but it's also a pretty undeniable fact that certain people should not be allowed to have children of their own, and I daresay that some reasonably clear guidelines could be determined with relative ease, if a given electorate were determined to do so.

    I would say that the first thing to do is provide all post-pubescent humans with sterility drugs -- both male and female -- which have only a temporary effect. To legally have a child, both parties would be required to demonstrate the knowledge I've outlined above, at which point they would be cleared to cease taking the sterility drugs, giving them as little as a month, or as many as six, before their bodies are prepared to conceive (obviously, this limit depends on the woman).

    If such drugs were available, they could be mass-produced and provided free to all post-pubescent persons, and the "abortion problem" due to "unwanted pregnancy" would disappear. Two problems are solved simultaneously: unwanted pregnancy, and unqualified parents.

    Whatever.

    Feel free to ignore the last bit, but the chicken versus egg test is a shorter-term and reasonably ethically clean solution.

    --
    Stan

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  28. Dani'el wrote I understand your point, but like I said, we are witnessing the great apostasy of the last days.
    An apostate preacher will work bits of truth into his deception to keep his cover up.


    Ok, but this "inconsistency of message" (for lack of a better phrase) has been around for 100+ years. It's one thing to suggest the end times lead preachers to teaching "false" messages - it's quite another to ignore the fact that the same thing has been happening for a long time.

    100 years ago, how could you distinguish between a Good preacher and a Bad preacher? Everyone seems to be able to say their opinion is based in the Bible - so how is it possible to agree with one and not the other?

    By what standards do you juudge such a preacher? It can't have anything to do with the last days, because judgements have been proliferate for a long time now...

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  29. Wem,
    The standard is the bible.

    And from the beginning of the church and even in the OT, Satan attacked the truth with false teachers.

    It does take a God given discernment to know who is who, but there have been clever deceptions that have temporarily fooled "even the elect" over the ages.

    But in a general sense, one cannot judge a preacher on one sermon alone, and no preacher is perfect so it takes spiritual discernment, and a good look at the man's personal life and habits as well. (important!)
    All the requirements are found in scripture.

    But if one sees only contradictions or offense in the bible, a good preacher will do the same.

    There are some doctrinal disputes that have caused conflicts in denominations over time, but there are foundational doctrines that must be held to be considered orthodox.
    Like the triune God, Deity of Jesus, Virgin birth, Atonement on the cross, Salvation by grace, a literal resurrection and return of Christ etc.
    If the basics are not sound, they are deceived and/or deceiving.

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  30. And from the beginning of the church and even in the OT, Satan attacked the truth with false teachers. With a notable increase in the last days.

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  31. Dani'El
    If the basics are not sound, they are deceived and/or deceiving.

    And from the beginning of the church and even in the OT, Satan attacked the truth with false teachers. With a notable increase in the last days.

    We'll remind you of those kinds of statements, Dani'El, after your "prediction" of the destruction of LA by fire and brimstone has failed.

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  32. @ Rey Noldfort, ;)

    And when it is fulfilled?
    What will you say then?

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  33. Reynold,

    "Dan, you hypocrite! Isn't it your god who himself ordered the deaths of: pregnant women and babies who's already been born?"

    Before Christ they had to be perfect and there was no other way but to do the things to make them perfect. IF a man murders he must be put to death. If a man sins he must pay for it harshly. They lived the life to show us that we must remain and to live a perfect life to be with God. They failed and God gave us the greatest Gift of Christ. We have no choice but to relinquish our souls to Christ. We must let Jesus run every part of our lives because in order to be saved we must become a part of Him. We must become Christians. Otherwise you too will be punished for your sins.

    Stan,

    "Parenting is not a right. It is a privilege, and it is a tremendous responsibility. People should be required to demonstrate reasonably consistent earning potential, knowledge of childcare techniques, and an ability to handle the responsibility prior to being allowed to have children."

    Is this the same dude that stood up for free speech? The man that stood on the first amendment? The one that wants to preserve the right to preserve life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?

    You want a secular but free society but then want to restrict people from having babies just like China?

    hypocrite?

    Speaking of hypocrisy! Preserve Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of happiness? This murderous secular nation will pay for the wrong decisions that it has made, very severely! Go to the back with that one!

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  34. Dan wrote This murderous secular nation will pay for the wrong decisions that it has made, very severely!

    No, it wont.

    You're deluded. Unfortunately for me, I wont ever live to see this confirmed. I do, however, sleep better at night knowing that one day you're going to suddenly realize you've rejected the nature of reality and your God given brain - and have thus rejected the very thing you believe you're championing.

    If that was me, I'd had a very difficult time reconciling that. it's not, though, so I sleep well.

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  35. You want a secular but free society but then want to restrict people from having babies just like China?

    No. I want a free society (secular is a superfluous adjective in this case), with reasonable restrictions on who can have children and when. Indeed, I'd prefer to see the notion of a pair of biological parents "owning" children dismissed -- I'd prefer divorcing the biological parents from the children, and instead allowing for communally raised children. How's that for radical?

    Fortunately for you, and quite likely for me, this will never happen. It could only work if the society in question were open and free, and despite our efforts, we're far from it anywhere on this planet (small pockets of relatively isolated societies excluded).

    It's a pipe dream.

    [R]estrict people from having babies just like China?

    No, not just like China, but insofar as their methods are draconian, they at least recognize the sad reality that Christians so blissfully ignore: allowing unfettered population increase is unsustainable.

    At some point, we, as a species, must recognize -- collectively -- that limits must be imposed on who can reproduce and when, and while China's measures are far from ideal, they are at the very least a recognition of this uncomfortable fact.

    ...or you can invent some crazy way of powering this planet and providing food for its inhabitants given an exponential increase in population...

    --
    Stan

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  36. Stan wrote-
    I'd prefer divorcing the biological parents from the children, and instead allowing for communally raised children. How's that for radical?

    Fortunately for you, and quite likely for me, this will never happen."


    D- Well, this explains a lot.
    Actually your totalitarian fascist world order will be fulfilled, but as it has in the past, it will be a horror and nothing like the Utopia that you think it could be.

    Prophecy touches on this here-

    Mar 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
    Mar 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
    Mar 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
    Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    The time of the Hitler youth or Stalinist purges were children informed on their parents were just foreshadowings of a greater fulfillment to come in the New World Order of the Antichrist.

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  37. Dan +†+ said...

    Reynold,

    "Dan, you hypocrite! Isn't it your god who himself ordered the deaths of: pregnant women and babies who's already been born?"

    Before Christ they had to be perfect and there was no other way but to do the things to make them perfect. IF a man murders he must be put to death. If a man sins he must pay for it harshly.
    Yeah, those babies back then, they must have really had it comeing. All you've done is explain why, in your mythology, that the adults had to be killed. That's not the point I'm arguing here.

    Remember, virgin Midianite women were taken in, but the babies and pregnant women (from a different campaign) were killed. Why? Didn't those adult women deserve more punishment than some kids??

    They lived the life to show us that we must remain and to live a perfect life to be with God. They failed and God gave us the greatest Gift of Christ.
    Why couldn't those people who "failed" have been spared? Couldn't they have been spared like the midianite women and still be used as an example to show how life has to be lived? Why go after the offspring?

    We know that virgin women were spared...(atheists know that they were just "war booty" in barbaric times. You people are the ones who have to justify such things since it's your "god" who ordered those actions done.

    It's funny how in the same post you're defending the killing of babies, yet at the end of the same post you're saying this:
    This murderous secular nation will pay for the wrong decisions that it has made, very severely!

    Only with religion could people be so double-minded.



    We have no choice but to relinquish our souls to Christ. We must let Jesus run every part of our lives because in order to be saved we must become a part of Him. We must become Christians. Otherwise you too will be punished for your sins.
    Great, now you sound like the borg...

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  38. Dani' El said...

    @ Rey Noldfort, ;)

    And when it is fulfilled?
    What will you say then?

    IF it's fulfilled then I'd say that you'd be on to something; that you may even be right. Know this, though. I've saved copies of your prediction so that you can't deny them later when your predictions fail.

    Answer the question please, future false prophet.

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  39. Reynold,
    You don't need to bother copying anything.
    It's all on my blog for all to see.

    Many others have asked that question on my blog and I always answer the same way.
    I will not consider that God lied to me.
    I will not deny the overwhelming mountain of evidence that it will be fulfilled soon.
    And this is not an extra-biblical prophecy as it is found in Luke 17.
    I am only the messenger here.

    But anyway. Not long to wait for the fulfillment.
    So don't bother to make demands of me to answer such a question.
    I am obedient to God, not man.

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  40. I'd like to know how any Christian knows that any particular abortion is not God calling another soul home.

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  41. Dave,
    You could go out right now and kill one hundred christians, sending them all home to God. But you would still be guilty of 100 murders.

    Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

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  42. Dani' El, you didn't answer my question. The state of sin of the abortionist isn't the objection raised to the practice, it's the millions of "innocent souls" slaughtered that has Christians trying to change the laws here.

    But you won't say whether God intended for the soul of any aborted "baby" to be collected at the time of the abortion. And Ecclesiates suggests that you cannot say.

    Furthermore, there isn't much of a press by Christians to criminalize any of the other behaviors deemed sinful under the Ten Commandments. Theft is already illegal, of course, and so is perjury (but not all false witness).

    And if the Christians are correct, then all an abortionist needs to do after performing one, or a hundred, or a thousand abortions is to repent and accept Christ, and all of their sins will be forgiven. Why criminalize abortion any more than dishonoring one's parents is?

    Besides, God's punishment is the same no matter what the sin or the amount of sinning, and only God is capable of proper judgment. So why is abortion such a huge issue for Christians, when coveting is not?

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  43. Dave,
    We want both the child to live, and the mother/father/abortionist/nation to be free of the condemnation of murder, correction, mass murder.

    If you understand how God judges even to the intentions of our hearts, so that hatred without cause is murder, lust is adultery of the heart, so is even supporting abortion "rights" mass murder and all who even vote for/argue for the murder of the unborn will be found guilty of mass murder of over 45 MILLION unborn children in america alone.

    Did Hitler actually murder 6 million Jews in the camps? or just sign the orders? God judged Hitler guilty of every one of those murders and He will judge all who sign the death warrants of the unborn the same way.
    Doesn't an eternity in hell seem more just when you consider this?

    And no. The punishment in hell is not the same for everybody. The wicked have "their part" in the lake of fire according to their works.

    The reason that abortion is on the front burner for most christians is that child sacrifice was the last straw for God with many nations in the OT. God judged those who practiced it severely and He will do just that to the USA (and the rest of the world) soon enough. Indeed it is already upon us. 9/11, Katrina, and coming soon, the destruction of San Francisco and LA per luke 17. (see my blog)

    In legalizing abortion they legalized murder, do you want legalized murder?
    Feuding? Maybe it would cut down on back alley murders and drive by shootings if we legalized feuding in certain approved feuding halls, where people could safely murder each other without injuring bystanders. Sound good to you?
    I doubt it.

    We know these are the days of Lot and Noah so iniquity abounds and it's going to get worse. God's law will not be enforced on the earth until the millennial kingdom of Messiah to come. Which doesn't mean we should just accept evil and not oppose it.

    The notion that one can sin away and just repent at the last minute doesn't fly, since 1. It must be sincere repentance. 2. One can die before they get the chance. 3. It is repentance AND sincere faith in Messiah that saves and that too is by God's grace, not the will of man.

    It's VERY dangerous to think that way as you can only succeed in heaping great wrath on yourself.

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  44.      A true prophet would have given an answer. Indeed, if he believed that much, he could agree to anything on the condition that his prophecy failed. The assertion of "I will not consider the possibility that god lied to me" necessarily means "I am a false prophet."

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  45. Still no answer to the important question, Dani' El? That's only to be expected, since to answer it is to claim knowledge that God Himself says you cannot have.

    On another note, whether I unrepentantly steal a single doughnut or slaughter a billion innocents, my punishment will be the same: an eternity in Hell. The idea that there are different qualities to an infinite punishment is ludicrous, because the common factor among all of them (and the only part of the punishment that actually matters, given Biblical premises) is the permanent separation of a soul from God.

    And good work on ignoring Ecclesiastes. You have to in order to oppose evil, since the Bible makes it clear that there is a time to every purpose under Heaven.

    I checked out your blog. Good luck with being the modern-day Lot. You'll need a couple of daughters to get you drunk and have their way with you before your story will be over.

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  46. Dave W,

    Taking a break from this craziness to enjoy time with the family but I will break silence to answer one question:

    "I'd like to know how any Christian knows that any particular abortion is not God calling another soul home."

    This is a very ludicrous question but just to appease you I will answer.

    What you are claiming, or that is like saying, that parents are having children, for the express and only purpose, to get grandchildren.

    God doesn't want murdering because it's wrong. Yes innocent young lives go to heaven. If God wants innocent life to go to heaven then he wouldn't make the sixth Commandment of murdering is wrong. So do parents have children only to have grandchildren? Of course not! Keep in mind that we are all His children so for one to murder their baby is like murdering a grandchild for the parent. Yes the parent (God) gets to receive the (grand)child sooner but then his original child goes to hell for murdering their child. Does that even make logical sense to do so? I am sure God wants us all repentant and to end up in heaven.

    HERE are some verses on abortion that I collected some time ago. I put the last verse there as hope for woman that do commit murder of their child. We are all sinners and can be redeemed. There is still hope after the abortion and what a great thing, to be reunited in heaven with that lost child aborted to have eternity to get to know that great and wonderful soul that was rejected.

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  47. Dan, you're making no sense. My question had nothing to do with the purpose of bearing children, whether it's "only" for having grandchildren or not.

    I'm told, over and over, that it's solely the province of God if a life should end or continue. Christians seem to have no problem at all with God calling souls home using ordinary people as His method. The Old Testament is full of such tales, with God commanding the slaughter of thousands, or even just commanding people to stone sinners. Such killing is forgiven, if not celebrated, so obviously killing when it is God's intent for people to die is okay.

    Now, who here can say that it is not God's intent for doctors to abort "babies?" Is it impossible that God sees some fetus would grow to be outside His plan, and so nips that life off early (as with the Amalekites)?

    Killing is generally wrong (not just murder). But if God sees fit to kill, how could it be wrong? More importantly, because God isn't writing any of His current orders into the Bible any longer, how is it that anyone knows that some percentage of abortions are not in accord with God's Divine Will?

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  48. Dave W.,

    "Dan, you're making no sense."

    Well, that wouldn't be the first time. I fully understand what you are saying but I was just trying to compare God to a parent wanting children to come home. Clumsy as it was, it wasn't logical that God would call children home by having people kill fetuses.

    "how is it that anyone knows that some percentage of abortions are not in accord with God's Divine Will?"

    First, I believe the Bible is clear that God doesn't. (James 1:13-14)

    Second, why only "some percentage of abortions?" If your theory is correct then every last one is His will, right?

    I just don't believe what you are saying is true based on the thrust of the Bible. Any sin is of the devil and not of God. (1 John 3:8)

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  49. Dan wrote:
    "Clumsy as it was, it wasn't logical that God would call children home by having people kill fetuses."

    Well, no, what isn't logical is to ignore the precedent set by God in the Old Testament of calling souls home by ordering His Chosen People to rip children from their mothers' wombs.

    I wrote:
    "how is it that anyone knows that some percentage of abortions are not in accord with God's Divine Will?"

    Dan replied:
    "First, I believe the Bible is clear that God doesn't. (James 1:13-14)"

    Abortions might be evil in your eyes, but you don't know God's mind, Dan. Again, Ecclesiastes says that there is a time for every purpose under Heaven. Ignore that book at your peril.

    "Second, why only "some percentage of abortions?" If your theory is correct then every last one is His will, right?"

    If that were my theory, I would be a staunch Calvanist who believes not only that there's no such thing as free will, but that sin is impossible. If everything is God's Divine Will, then nothing I can do could be considered wrong.

    "I just don't believe what you are saying is true based on the thrust of the Bible. Any sin is of the devil and not of God. (1 John 3:8)"

    Well, Dan, you should know me well enough to know my response: God created Satan. God created evil. God created sin. God, having created everything, is responsible for everything. There is sin in the world only because God created a universe in which sin is possible. He didn't have to do so, He chose to do so.

    So the source of sin is irrelevant. The question, as pertains to abortion, is whether humans are capable of correctly identifying sin. To do so requires God's judgment.

    A secondary question is whether humans should punish sin, since God will have final judgment anyway. And didn't the New Covenant do away with all those nasty stonings? There are secular reasons for criminalizing theft and some killings. If we criminalize sin, for biblical reasons, isn't it just redundant (and perhaps contraindicated by John 8:7)?

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  50. You see, this is why I hate arguing with Christian fundies. Pointing out how vicious and murderous their god is only opens the window for them to spew their abortion talking-points. This is the mind of a Christian fundy:

    God drows all life on earth except a boat of 8 people and some animals: Good

    God orders the Isrealites to burn a man, his wife, and his mother in-law at stake because the man had sex with his mother in-law: Good.

    God orders the Isrealites to burn a pregnant prostitute to death: Good.

    God orders the Isrealites to stone children for backtalking their parents: Good

    God orders the Isrealites to slay unborn babies during war: Good.

    God strikes down Uzza for trying to save the ark of the Covenant: Good.

    God sending two she-bears to rip 42 youths apart for making fun of Elisha's bald head: Good.

    God creates Satan to test man, creates man imperfect so that he will fail, then burns most of them forever for not living up to his impossible high standards: Good.

    Scientists do stuff with zygotes to try to cure diseases and save lives: EVIL! AN ABOMINATION EQUIVILANT TO THE HOLOCAUST!


    You see, God can do all these ultra-Hitleresque things in the Bible because he's God, so ignore your own natural moral instincts. However, the Religious Right can pull something out of their butt and suddenly it becomes God's command.

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  51. Dave,

    "Again, Ecclesiastes says that there is a time for every purpose under Heaven. Ignore that book at your peril."

    It also says in Ecclesiastes:

    Ecclesiastes 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

    Ecclesiastes 8:6 Because to every purpose there is time and judgment, therefore the misery of man is great upon him.

    I agree with you though, in the philosophical sense, all things are for the glorification of God. Even if it is to help people understand that evil wicked acts like abortions are indeed wrong and that is why we need Christ to save all of us. Without Him such acts will continue.

    Kipthedip,

    Nice salesmanship in a very biased way. Well done.

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  52. Dan,

    I sincerely apologize for my rudeness. I'm just venting my frustrations. You know why Pro-Life protestors hold up photos of mutilated fetusus? Because it's gruesome, and it gets the point across. However, if I showed you a photo of a baby ripped out of the womb by a sword, or 42 children ripped apart by a bear, you might vomit at the site. However, because it's in the Bible and God did it, you don't think twice. You're blinded by your faith, and the fact that you're wearing your "Jesus googles". God through your eyes is always a loving and caring father.

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  53. Kip,

    "I sincerely apologize for my rudeness. I'm just venting my frustrations."

    Meh

    "You know why Pro-Life [protesters] hold up photos of mutilated [fetuses]? Because it's gruesome, and it gets the point across. "

    Do you know why the Bible gives you vivid stories about Hell and Judgement and Damnation? Because it's gruesome, and it gets the point across.

    They do learn from the best. Everyone wants to look away at something like a mutilated fetus. The same reasons for anyone to see piles of people being bulldozed into mass graves during the Holocaust. The reason is because God put in us compassion and empathy, its horribly barbaric to ones soul to witness that. BTW Do you understand what people are doing when they have abortions right? They are mutilating fetuses! Why not expose that type of treatment of innocence?

    If we were showing "42 children ripped apart by a bear" people would outrage against that bear that is for sure! We would gather search parties to eradicate that horrible bear to keep him from doing again. Most would want to mutilate that bear as a get even mentality. So I ask you, were those picture effective? All seems fine in a hush, hush sterile 'don't look' environment, but the brutality that goes on is unacceptable!

    You're blinded by your faith, and the fact that you're wearing your "scientist goggles." God is always a loving and caring father.

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  54. Except when he advocates murder, torture and slavery.

    The same instinct you claim makes us feel ill over pictures of abortions compels me to reject your notion of a loving god (in regards to a literal biblical interpretation)

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  55. So you believe that the targeted killing of children and babies is, sometimes, under some circumstances, justifiable??

    Even in war, the targeted killing of children is considered a war crime. Killing children as “collateral damage” in the act of war is not a war crime, but deliberately targeting children for killing; hunting them down; looking for their hiding places and then running them down as they scream in terror as they see you raise your sword or knife, IS a war crime.

    Your god would be arrested, tried, and convicted of the most heinous war crimes if he were put on trial today. He is a monster. How can you teach your children this barbaric nonsense? How can you call yourself a “moral” person and believe this?

    There is NEVER any justifiable reason to target children for killing. Never.

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  56. This sermon by Washer is for those who already profess to believe. If you do not belive then this sermon will only matter to you at your point of death, at which stage it will be too late anyway. At the throne room of the creator, after he has given you your existence and everything you know and see, and his words in a book, and his prophets, and his Son, and the free gift offer of eternal life in his kingdom, do you honestly think that claiming not to have believed in him, or that you are angry with him with cut it as an excuse? If you are determined to hang onto your pride and deny Christ as Lord then you need to eat, drink and be merry, as you are destined for a very long time in torment seperated from God. What you believe doesn't change reality, just as an armed robber standing before the courts is a fool to say, "I'm ok, I don't even believe in the judge". Turn from your sin and follow Jesus in thought and deed, otherwise all is lost. May God change your heart. In love, Steve

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    1. Yes, if he exists and if he has the powers your ancient middle-eastern holy book claims he does, he will toss me into the flames of Hell to writhe in agony for all eternity, regardless of what I think of him.

      But that doesn't change the fact that by every standard of decency and morality your god is a self-absorbed, sadistic, psychopathic, blood-thirsty, genocidal, Monster. Believe in him if you want, but cut the crap about him being just and good. If everything you say about him is true, he is the epitome of Evil.

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  57. Gary is this the argument that you intend to put before God? Read the closing chapters of Job. "Where were you when..................". Please share your credentials, because if you are greater than God we should be following your advice. I say this not to anger you but to try and save you.
    Could I suggest: Turn from your sin and follow Jesus in thought and deed, otherwise all is lost. May God change your heart. In love, Steve

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    1. Here is the problem, Steve. If there were only two options, 1.) Jesus is dead/Christianity is wrong, or, 2.) Christianity is true and I am going to suffer eternal torment in Hell for not believing, then anyone with a brain would hedge his bet and become a Christian.

      But those are not the only two options. Islam is also an exclusivist religion. If Islam is true, then I and YOU will both burn in the Muslim Hell for all eternity. And there are hundreds of other exclusivist belief systems on the planet, including nativist religions. There are witchdoctors in villages in the jungle who tell their people that anyone (that includes YOU) who does not worship the great gum tree or some other physical object in the center of the village will be tormented in the afterlife forever.

      Why aren't you worried about the Muslim Hell? Why aren't you worried about the many other terrible fates that await you, Steve, if some other exclusivist religion is right and you are wrong??

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  58. Thanks Gary. You are a very reasonable person and I appreciate your argument.

    Generally speaking, I agree with you.

    There is one truth when it comes to the matter of crediting our existence to something or someone. Unfortunately todays post-modernism finds it very hard to swallow absolutes. "Everyone is right" is their cry!

    If the muslims have got it right then I am in big trouble. Same as if Jesus is right then there will be a lot of others in big trouble.

    After reading the words of the God of the bible I believed. I believe beyond the shadow of a doubt for many reasons including personal revelations, the consistency of His word, His claims, the countless specific prophecies fulfilled, and the list goes on.

    Best thing I could ever say to you Gary is to pray. Ask Him to reveal Himself to you in a personal way that you will understand and will satisfy your doubt. If you do this in all humility and seriousness and are genuinlely willing to follow Him if He responds, then He will. And if He does not (but He will), then when you die you can ask Him why He never revealed Himself to you. Remember, you cannot lie to God. Be sincere or don't bother.

    Either way Gary, choose your god very carefully.

    Bless you,

    Steve

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    1. You believe that the Christian god is the one true god based on:

      -personal revelations
      -the consistency of the Bible
      -fulfilled prophecies
      -and other reasons

      Again the problem is that millions of Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and Mormons can make the very same claim. And each group will tell me to pray to THEIR god and ask him to reveal himself to me.

      There has to be a better way, Steve. If there truly is an all-knowing, all-powerful God who is good and just, don't you think he would have provided a much better way to figure out who he is? If your belief system is correct, it is as if God is playing a deadly game of Hide and Seek. It seems to me that it is much more likely that your belief system was not created by a god, but by superstitious, fallible human beings.

      I suggest that we use our brains, reason, and common sense to see that your belief system is false. A good and just god would not play games with us. He would reveal the truth to each one of us in such an unmistakable way that no one would have any doubt who the true God is.

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  59. Gary, He has. First He created all things and all things testify of Him. Then He gave us His words. He has given us a conscience. Then He prophesied everything that would happen regarding His people, His Son and His creation. Then He came to earth in line with all of His prophecies and lived among us. Now His Holy Spirit lives in those who follow Him and regenerates their lives in real and meaningful ways.

    Man has created all other gods as part of their rebellion against him. I am guessing that your god is Helium and Hydrogen combined with large amounts of time.

    The God of the bible claims to be the only true God. And therefore He either is or He isn't. End of argument really. He either is or He isn't. Choose Gary.

    Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

    Hebrews 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts

    If you continue in your way Gary, then you will continue to say that your logic, your intelligence, your "fill in the blank", is better than Gods. You must have a high opinion of yourself.

    We are starting to talk around in circles and so I think this discussion is at a end. The Lord Jesus Christ is the (only) way, the truth and the life. We can believe this or not. I do.

    I will let you have the last word, and I will check in to read your comment out of respect for you. You are blessed in the fact that you even care about this topic, there are many who care more about their materialistic world and give little if any thought to their existence.

    God bless you Gary, and I pray that God will open your eyes to His truth.

    Steve

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    1. That was very polite and kind of you Steve, so although I still disagree with you, I will let you have the last word.

      Peace.

      Delete

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