They have no where else to go. There entire industry, careers, and grants are geared to the paradigm of evolution. If wrong, then there is a Creator. These points were discussed in the article named "What Do Scientists Really Think?" that reviews a new book called,
Science vs Religion: What Scientists Really Think.
We get some of the insight and opinions of secular scientists for example, that was quoting the book, "None of the religious scientists I talked with supported the theory of intelligent design. (94% of religious scientists think that evolution is the best explanation for the development of life on earth)." (pp. 29-30).
Why would they? As Expelled, the Movie points out they would be laughed out, or fired, for such blasphemy towards science. Little do they know science was encouraged in the original Christian universities that searches for the 'Fingerprints Of God'.
Harvard and Yale (originally Puritan) and Princeton (originally Presbyterian) once had rich Christian histories.
Harvard was named after a Christian minister. Yale was started by clergymen, and Princeton’s first year of class was taught by Reverend Jonathan Dickinson. Princeton’s crest still says “Dei sub numine viget,” which is Latin for “Under God she flourishes.”(AIG)
Yea, 'under God she flourishes' and not under God, they will fail. Evidenced by the current Evolutionary Paradigm. Evolution is the biggest lie ever perpetuated on mankind, besides man causing global warming that is.
Someone that reviewed the book said "Perhaps its most surprising finding is that nearly a quarter of the atheists and agnostics describe themselves as 'spiritual.'"
O'rly? Closet Christians? No such animal.
The author, Elaine Ecklund, attempts to show that "Only a small minority are actively hostile to religion. Ecklund reveals how scientists-believers and skeptics alike-are struggling to engage the increasing number of religious students in their classrooms and argues that many scientists are searching for "boundary pioneers" to cross the picket lines separating science and religion."
LOL only in America would over 60% of the general public believe in a God/s
ReplyDeleteIf everything was created 6000 or so years ago (where does the figure 6000 come from anyway?) woundn't most of the fossils found be of animals that still exsist? Like fossils of the animals that were saved from the flood?
freedom of thought and questioning questioning leads to atheism.
Atheism comes from lack of morals, not "freedom of thought". After all, some of the greatest geniuses of all time have been Christians or theists.
ReplyDeleteIf there's no Creator, do what you will shall be the whole of the law. But if there IS a Creator, he makes the rules and you'd better find out what he has to say. http://tinyurl.com/2g4fgz9
These intellectual games are tiring, because I don't know intellectually honest atheists who actually want answers. They'd rather fling poo like the false ancestors of humanity.
No Stormbringer,you are tiring.
ReplyDeleteYou believe in a book of cobbled together myths taken from a dozen or so pagan religions to form a glop of concentrated woo,fling out a couple of broad statements that any child that hasn't been degraded abused and brainwashed by fundi cults would know is utter B.S. and pronounce "and you'd better find out what he has to say".
Another idle thought that has sprang to mind now and then:
ReplyDeleteSuppose there is a capital-C Creator, but that Creator is the sort who thinks that the idea of eternal torment is really a fair concept.
I'd choose my supposedly amoral, humanist system over that.
Fear of hell is a terrible reason to subscribe to a system of belief. And yes, I know, that isn't your only reason &c. I've heard it.
But really: How is the system of morality set forth in the Bible more reasonable, fair, and compassionate than the modern liberal consensus, or any human-derived set of principles that don't involve killing people? There are a rather startling number of things for which you should be put to death, by the Torah. I'm rather opposed to killing people for any reason other than immediate, no-choice defense of the lives of yourself and others. And even that would make me feel terrible.
Mr. Bringer, you've brought up the idea of intellectual honesty in your comments several times now. Please stop lying to yourself about us. There are atheist jerks, it's true. But not personally knowing any who "actually want answers" is hardly a justification for catch-all definition of atheists as people who stick there fingers in their ears and made rude noises while you try to speak to them.
I do want, and have wanted, answers for a while.
Let's start with something small: I would dearly like to know how the concept of hell and moral rightness go hand in hand. What mortal, temporal crimes merit eternal torture?
I shall admit: I do not believe in any gods. But I shall also say that, if I did, I would find worshipping a god as infinitely cruel as your YHWH morally repugnant. Call it civil disobedience.
And please don't give me anything about a choice between infinite mercy and infinite suffering. True mercy doesn't depend upon a person's ability to pick the right and proper laws of behavior from among thousands of systems.
I will also take questions at this time. I am the man in the back with a red t-shirt and no hat.
ReplyDeleteI should probably respond to Dan, too.
ReplyDelete"Someone that reviewed the book said "Perhaps its most surprising finding is that nearly a quarter of the atheists and agnostics describe themselves as 'spiritual.'"
O'rly? Closet Christians? No such animal.
I know dozens of "spiritual, but not religious" people. They believe variously in such things as the healing power of crystals, love, magnet therapy, homeopathy, basic decency, one world-spirit, feng shui, and lending a hand at bake sales.
Most of them have never been christians. Some regard Mr. Yeshua as a pretty cool guy, but not as a savior or aspect of God.
There are places where being a Christian requires closeting (i.e., Iran), but the US is hardly such a place.
...or maybe I missed your point.
Too bad about that idea of atheism leading to atheism, Dan. It looks like even despite the oaths they take, even some creationists are having trouble dealing with the physical evidence for evolution (when they don't ignore it like you do).
ReplyDeleteThough he hasn't chucked creation theory so I guess he's still ok in their circles, for now...
The Chimpanzee Genome and the Problem of Biological Similarity:
The level of similarity observed between the human and chimpanzee genomes cannot be adequately explained simply by the will of the Creator, unless a theory can be developed to explain why the Creator would will such similarity.
Attaboy, Dax, you sure put me into my place! Wow, I'm afraid to comment here anymore. Oh, wait...
ReplyDelete"Atheism comes from lack of morals"
ReplyDeleteReally? I thought atheism comes from growing up. You know, the process of throwing out childish ideas like Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, and the Supernatural Magic Man Who Hides Behind The Clouds.
I noticed that some cowardly people refuse to grow up. They would rather throw out all of science than give up their magic god fairy.
Are these cowards gullible, stupid, insane, or all of the above? It's all of the above plus dishonesty and a few other problems like incurable mental retardation.
Theism comes from a lack of intelligence and from a lack of morals. It's the theists, not the atheists, who brainwash children with the-magical-god-did-it propaganda. Making children as stupid as possible is extremely immoral but Christians and Muslim terrorists do this every day.
Now we're getting to the typical atheist methodology: "Yeah, but so are you", plus deflect, project and attack.
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile, I have yet to meet an intellectually honest atheist that will do anything more than hiss, spit, spew and rail.
We could all prove beyond the shadow of a doubt with all of the evidence available, but you would still refuse to abandon the blind faith of atheism and evolutionism. If you had intelligence and courage, you could see the moral bankruptcy of atheism.
Ape,
ReplyDelete>>I thought atheism comes from growing up. You know, the process of throwing out childish ideas like Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, and the Supernatural Magic Man Who Hides Behind The Clouds.
Now you are entering into Ray's point, he said, "People don't fight against something that doesn't exist, or something they don't believe exists."
That's why you don't see groups rising up to fight against belief in werewolves. You don't see professors in universities ridiculing the existence of Santa Claus. You don't see organizations mobilizing troops to denounce bunyips, centaurs, or leprechauns.
What's different with atheists?
So what's different in the atheist's brain? If God doesn't exist, why do atheists such as Richard Dawkins care so passionately that some people believe in Him? Why do they bother writing books against the existence of God? Or waste time preparing videos for YouTube that ridicule God? Or fund ads on the side of London buses?
In fact, why do atheists bother acknowledging that people believe in God at all? People believe all sorts of ridiculous things that atheists don't care about, so why does it matter to them if one of those things is God?
Atheists may be brilliant scholars or academics. They may be wonderful inventors, surgeons, or scientists. But if they say there is no God they are declaring themselves fools in spiritual matters. This is why atheism is sometimes called the fool's philosophy."
"blind faith of atheism and evolutionism"
ReplyDeleteNot believing in your invisible friend requires faith?
Accepting the established truth of evolution, a basic scientific fact supported by 150 years of scientific discoveries and massive powerful evidence from several branches of science, evidence that is still rapidly growing, all this requires faith?
Mister, your problem is you are just plain stupid.
The reason atheists ridicule you (and you're so insane and uneducated I would bet there's quite a few theists who ridicule you) is because you're too lazy to study science, too dumb to be able to understand it, and too cowardly to grow up and face facts. Stop being a moron and the ridicule will stop. Until then expect to be laughed at for the rest of your pathetic worthless life.
By the way, a sure sign of hopeless stupidity is calling evolutionary biology "evolutionism".
"why do atheists such as Richard Dawkins care so passionately that some people believe in Him?"
ReplyDeleteTerrorism.
Evolution-deniers who are equal to flat-earthers but they're even worse because they are constantly trying to destroy science education.
Brainwashing of innocent children.
Out-of-control religious insanity.
I could continue, but I think I answered your question.
By the way, "Him" and not "him" is a sure sign of out-of-control stupidity. Are you afraid of the Magic Man? Is that your problem?
Grow up mister. This is not the Dark Ages.
Monkey Boy here is proving my point. Thanks for playing, we have some lovely parting gifts.
ReplyDeleteRidicule, dodging the questions, yadda yadda yadda. One of the biggest problems I have with atheists is that you people are BORING! Boring because you're predictable.
"Your invisible friend requires faith". In logic, that is technically, "Yeah, but so are YOU :-p: ". Agonizing.
Having had decades to study the intellectual and moral bankruptcy of atheism, studying the validity of evidence for the Bible (a subject that anti-theists are terrified of honestly examining), I have no choice but to conclude that atheism is vapid.
Fuck off Stormbringer. You're equal to a terrorist and you're an asshole.
ReplyDeleteTruth hurts?
ReplyDeleteHave I been hissing, spitting, spewing and railing..? Pardon me for not seeing it.
ReplyDeleteNo one ever wants to answer my questions about hell. Or any other questions.
Human Ape beat me to the riposte, but I'd like to echo his comments. People don't blow themselves up in the name of werewolves. No one treats homosexuals as second-class citizens because of a strong inner conviction that gibbering ghasts are real. There are no organizations built around the concept of leprechauns that declare the use of condoms in overpopulated, AIDS-stricken regions to be a sin.
These and more all spring from theism of one sort or another. We make a point of opposing it for the same reason that people oppose drunk driving and not driving under the influence of water.
This isn't mere rheum-voiding. We care because of the terrible things that are done in the name of religion.
I'll not deny that it gives some people comfort. The belief in love and, again, duckies, gives me comfort. But there are no duck-loving extremists who make a life mission of killing people who don't like ducks.
Goodness, Mr. Bringer, I minor in philosophy and religion at a largely conservative, christian liberal arts school. I'm hardly terrified of examining the bible. I've done so extensively as a part of my studies, under wonderful professors.
ReplyDeleteAs for the "intelligence and courage" question, can we please all just stop with the calls of "idiot, idiot?" It's counter-productive.
I don't post anonymously, I'm open in that way, so if you'd like to swap SATs or ACTs or GPAs or IQs, I'd be glad to. Or maybe those have nothing to do with intelligence. Numbers, numbers.
...and if we're so predictable, why don't you already have answers to my questions..?
So, James, the one with the highest IQ wins?
ReplyDeleteShucks, I keep fergettin' that y'all atheists win 'cuz yer all smarter'n us believers. That's all cuz yer atheists, an' believers are automatically STOO-pid.
I don't care what schools you've been to, what your numbers are or anything. You can still be dead wrong. And if you're dead when you're wrong, you'll have forever to ponder it.
@Stormbringer-
ReplyDeleteIt's a good thing that you have the courage to speak against the hypocrisies of atheism.
By the way, just notice how Human Ape keeps posting a lot of bad words in his blog.
By the way give an advice to those who don't believe in God and still refuse to- why not stop breathing since you don't see air?
Check this blog out:
ReplyDeleteThe Foolishness of Darwinism
Thanks Franklin. So many people think Christians have to be hand-wringing wimps. This bad dog bites back.
ReplyDeleteI should have posted my link a while ago, where I took an idiotic atheist to task for bad thinking (of course) as well as questionable morals: http://preview.tinyurl.com/38brlxa
Ape,
ReplyDelete>>Terrorism.
Like taking Mojave Desert cross or murdering a school full of kids? The dude that performed the Finland school shooting said "I am prepared to fight and die for my cause, . . . I, as a natural selector, will eliminate all who I see unfit, disgraces of human race and failures of natural selection. No, the truth is that I am just an animal, a human, an individual, a dissident . . . . It’s time to put NATURAL SELECTION & SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST back on tracks!"
>>Brainwashing of innocent children.
Are you claiming that atheists don't? We all know that is exactly what Atheists do. I should also mention that Dawkins is writing children's books now. Intellectually dishonest much?
>>Out-of-control religious insanity.
O'rly? Dawkins has "religious insanity" more then anyone out there. Carl Packman said "Dawkins, in choosing a form of firebrand fundamentalist atheism over the discipline science, is no longer the champion of reason but rather a kind of evangelical against religion"
I could continue, but I think I countered your claims.
Welcome to the fray Franklin Li!
ReplyDeleteThe moment one of these creation scientists comes up with a testale/ falsifiable experiment to show the existence of a supernatural being, they will be picking up their Nobel.
ReplyDeleteYou ass-wpies are always whining about evolution, yet you have never, ever proposed any cometing emirical theory. In fact no theory whatsoever, only religious philosophy.
All creation/ ID scientits have ever done is take pieces of valid science and holler,"this is wrong!!!," while never showing why.
There is no evidence for supernatural stuff. There can be no evidence for supernatural stuff. However, when you find some, let me know.
Dan,
Where the hell did you dig up these asshats?
Morey,
ReplyDeleteWe are having fun at the banter but you asked a serious question that warrants a serious answer.
>>I would dearly like to know how the concept of hell and moral rightness go hand in hand. What mortal, temporal crimes merit eternal torture?
How could it not go hand in hand? God forbid, if someone raped and murdered your kid would that be justification for capitol punishment or, at minimum, imprisonment for their entire life? Would it be just to let them get away with it? No? Why? Should there be justice in the world? Why? Does our justice system fail to do "what is right" sometimes?
Moralists from Dante to Kierkegaard in discussing the myth of moral justice have warned us that the law cannot be the final arbiter of the good in society. There is a level deeper than the law from which we draw our values. It is the level of the spiritual, religious, or transcendent. It is where in our innermost quite times, we listen to what the good truly can be. It goes far beyond procedures and precedents."
Morals are merely subjective in the atheistic worldview. Why are you imposing your morality on others? What makes your morals better then another? Are these just imaginary rights? Do we have a right to cupcakes? Free speech? Where is the "origin" of our rights? Constitution or the Declaration of Independence? Nope!
Atheists cannot explain what is right and wrong without borrowing from a Christians worldview. No Creator= No rights. "We the people hold these truths to be self-evident"
Self evident: evident without proof or argument; "an axiomatic truth" Atheists want proof of God but God's existence is self evident.
Hell is there for the ones denying that they are evil. Possibly the Ted Bundys of the world. They own and cherish their evil and welcome and recruit others to join them. Hell is for the unrepentant. Even Adam was repentant and felt remorse for what he did and hid himself from God because he was afraid. He felt guilty and ashamed.
Atheists are like children that unafraid of their parents and cuss, disobey, and disrespect them. They need a spanking.
But since they are not children and free thinking adults then for their disobedience they deserve Justice.
So, when you find out there is a God, will you bow to His authority and obey Him as our Father? Yes? Maybe there is a chance of saving you then. No? Defiance for the law will get you deserved jail. You sir, will deserve justice if you remain defiant to God. What else is He to do with you? Let you go free? That would be an unjust Judge now wouldn't it?
BTW I am so grateful for Jesus for pulling me out of that much deserved lake of fire that I will worship Him for all eternity for what He has done for little old me. I definitely deserve hell for being a wicked and wretched man. I cannot begin to tell you how grateful I am for the life I have, now that I am saved.
Are Atheists ever grateful?
Stormbringer said:
ReplyDelete"Now we're getting to the typical atheist methodology: "Yeah, but so are you", plus deflect, project and attack.
Meanwhile, I have yet to meet an intellectually honest atheist that will do anything more than hiss, spit, spew and rail."
The irony. It burns.
Dan said:
"So what's different in the atheist's brain? If God doesn't exist, why do atheists such as Richard Dawkins care so passionately that some people believe in Him? Why do they bother writing books against the existence of God?"
Because God and religion is constantly shoved in our face. If you all just shut up and practiced your religion without trying to impose it on everyone else's lives and education systems, I expect you would notice a lot less attention from atheists.
Ah Yes
ReplyDeleteStormbringer
Only you are allowed to make broad sweeping statements of profounf thuth without the faintest clue of what you're talking about.
And Dax claims omniscience, at least regarding MY knowledge. Giving yourself GOD-like powers?
ReplyDelete"The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on nothing; it proceeds by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing and admits of no conclusion."
ReplyDelete-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason
I'm going to leave three comments, for Clarity.
ReplyDeleteFirst, to the esteemed Mr. Bringer:
So, James, the one with the highest IQ wins?
Shucks, I keep fergettin' that y'all atheists win 'cuz yer all smarter'n us believers. That's all cuz yer atheists, an' believers are automatically STOO-pid.
I don't care what schools you've been to, what your numbers are or anything. You can still be dead wrong. And if you're dead when you're wrong, you'll have forever to ponder it.
Did you read what I wrote..? First, you claimed that intelligence and courage lead to seeing "the moral bankruptcy of atheism." Then you said that atheists are scared to study the bible.
So, answering the second point, I noted that I seek to learn from conservative, christian professors about the bible. That's why I brought up schooling. I'm hardly afraid to study the bible from people who believe in it very strongly.
Answering the first, I offered, facetiously, to compare metrics, hoping to point out that intelligence doesn't necessarily lead to one thing or another. You may wish to note that I then said "or maybe those don't mean anything."
I then called on everyone to stop calling each other idiots.
Where in any of that did I suggest that I think you're a bad southern-dialect speaking moron..? Nowhere, you may be pleased to note, and thus save yourself the cost of a liniment for your sprained dignity.
You have proven yourself adept at building strawmen and then tearing them down. None of that aids your point.
...and, by the way, cartoons about hell? Does that strike you as funny? Even if you think it's just, the idea of mocking people going through eternal torment should be morally repugnant. Have some pity, if that's what you believe.
"I would give worlds if I had them, that The Age of Reason had never been published. O Lord, help me! Christ, help me! . . No, don't leave; stay with me! Send even a child to stay with me; for I am on the edge of Hell here alone. If ever the Devil had an agent, I have been that one."
ReplyDelete— Thomas Paine's dying words
No, Jimmy boy, I'm going to laugh at you and your posturing. And yes, that cartoon IS funny.
ReplyDeleteSecond: Dan, citing examples of nonreligious (or possibly religious, in the Mojave case—we don't know) examples of stupidity and violence doesn't "counter" points about religiously motivated stupidity and violence.
ReplyDeleteOne is far more prevalent than the other. You have a nifty little counter on your page about attacks carried out in the name of Islam. It may not be your religion, but it certainly is a brand of theism.
There are also a number of instances of stupidity and violence that have little or nothing to do with religion. Drunk driving. Crimes of passion. &c.
Our concern is that the stupidity and violence caused by belief in eternal rewards or an infinite moral superiority could be avoided. As has been mentioned, those views come from religion, not unicorn-belief, and so we argue the evils of religion (I don't deny the existence of goods, but I do think that religion is an unnecessary part of the equation) merit critical thinking about its nature. So on and so forth.
{break}
ReplyDeleteMr. Bringer, citation needed.
Also, posturing: To assume an exaggerated or unnatural pose or mental attitude; attitudinize.
I'm not making any exaggerations. And you are demonstrating profound sociopathic tendencies by finding torture funny.
Jimmy boy, you're playing a "gotcha" game. Calling me sociopathic because I find torture funny is supposed to neutralize what I have to say. Why don't you do like the other atheists and simply ignore the valid points I made that you people could not deal with?
ReplyDeleteYou're not fooling anybody. It's a CARTOON. Deal with it. Just like we're supposed to ignore, accept and deal with the way atheists malign, attack, impune, berate and act like greased pigs while you're *supposed* to be worshipers of logic.
Because of my experiences in the past as well as here, I'm not trying very hard. If I thought I could be getting a rational discussion out of your gang instead of slimy "logic", I might be willing to give you a run for your money.
Do you really think that Stormbringer is alone in his thoughts about atheists here? Really?
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of Cartoons...
Dan, Mind if I swipe that one for my article, tomorrow?
ReplyDeleteOK, on to the big one.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was in London, I was given the exact same argument from a muslim student who was trying to convert me. I still have Informational Packets about it.
Since I've heard this before, I'm going to call it the "argument from justice." Which can be profoundly affecting. I very deeply understand the need to feel that there should be justice in the world, and I feel just as deeply that there isn't any but what we make.
[to skip ahead to your last sentence: I am grateful that I live in one of the countries on Earth where I can say all of this without worrying about being attacked, killed or charged under blasphemy laws]
There is a level deeper than the law from which we draw our values. It is the level of the spiritual, religious, or transcendent.
I quite agree, but I'd call it empathy. Which not all people share equally, just as not all people share your religious views. Which leads me to a point: Regardless of whether morality comes from an external source or not, it is by the consent of humanity that it is applied. That, to me, is huge. Ultimately, it is our choices that determine what is punished and what is not. Temporally. You argue that there are eternal consequences, too, which I would say are separate. I'll get to that shortly.
What's wrong with Earthly morals being "merely subjective," then..? Hindus and Jains advocate profoundly peaceful ideas. Their view is subjective to their religion. Yours is subjective to your religion. On any side, there come arguments that the true morality belongs to one religion or another. Submission to one religion or another is a subjective choice. You yourself say that you came to Christianity after examining evidence. There are many who have examined the evidence and converted to Islam, or Buddhism, or atheism. Subjective choice.
Atheists cannot explain what is right and wrong without borrowing from a Christians worldview. No Creator= No rights.
I borrow from a Buddhist/Taoist worldview, actually. But that's just me. I am, in practice, essentially a secular, nontheist blend of the two. You may wish to note that there is no creator in either, yet both offer some manner of ethical system, even though Taoism denies the existence of objective good and evil (I agree).
Self evident: evident without proof or argument; "an axiomatic truth" Atheists want proof of God but God's existence is self evident.
Under certain definitions, perhaps. Axiomatic = perfect, by the way. I would say that existence is self-evident, and not much else. I see (and this is a bigger issue than we can wrangle with in discussions of hell [which I'll get to eventually]) no perfect, self-evident of a creator, much less a specific, Christian one.
You look at the sky, birds, leaves, and think "design." I look at the same and see "beautiful accident, emergent behavior." I didn't use to—I was raised very, very Christian; and here I invite a No True Scotsman. Neither view implies God as you envision him/her/it, just existence—and, in your case, some manner of creator.
Hell is there for the ones denying that they are evil.
ReplyDeleteYou later include atheists, regardless of actions. Here's where we start to get into the justice issue, and where we really start to diverge.
What would happen if someone raped and murdered my child..? I would feel pain, fury, loss, despair. I would feel that the perpetrator deserved a life in prison, to protect other children.
Now, by your system, this rapist/murderer has two options: He can deny that he has done anything wrong, or acknowledge wrongdoing but not your God, in which case he shall, upon death, be tormented eternally. Or, he can repent and choose to believe in your god, whereupon he will be capital-S Saved.
Suppose, however, that this sick person was born in a country where Christianity is hardly a footnote in the CIA profile. He only really has one option.
Suppose that he meets a man in jail for stealing bread to feed his family, and decides that Jesus is the way to go, while the bread thief doesn't. One gets torture, the other, heaven. Is this just..?
Suppose that a man commits no crimes (or sins, if you will) at all, but, again, is raised sans exposure to your gospels. He has only one option. Is this just..?
Suppose, as you seem to, that you find out upon death what manner of god there is and what he/she/it expects from you. That sounds fair—but why, then, does life matter if you get a choice upon dying? The upright man is treated the same as the murderer in this case. Is that just..?
In that case, life matters not at all, so why worry? Let us be, one way or another.
It's often asked what would be required to change an atheist's mind about the existence of a god. For me, it would be universal revelation. Every one on Earth receiving the same message at the same point in their life, with the rules laid out clearly.
Even then, this god may not be worthy of worship. I would argue that any entity who condones torture is not worthy of my respect.
I'm of the opinion that any just afterlife would be based on works and treatment of others, with isolation/rehabilitation and chances for growth instead of torment.
...but that's just little old morally bankrupt me. ;)
---
For what it's worth, I don't think you're either wicked or wretched, unless there are Things you haven't old us about. You seem to hold wicked- and wretchedness as defaults of the human condition, which, again, I disagree with.
To wrap things up, I'm grateful for my parents. For my friends. For my brothers. For having been born in a place where I needn't worry about starvation or early death from preventable disease. For stars. For fireflies. For life.
I don't think I deserve it, either.
...but I do think that, since I'm extraordinarily lucky enough to be alive, I had better treat everyone else as well or better than I'd like to be treated. No god required.
...and, to 'bringer:
ReplyDeleteI've answered every "point" you've made, while you've consistently refused to answer mine.
The jibe about having sociopathic tendencies was intended to be a jibe about you having sociopathic tendencies, not a rhetorical trick designed to fool you into thinking that I somehow haven't answered you.
Rubbish. My points have been unanswered. As I expected. Know what you're doing? http://xrl.in/5cb5
ReplyDeleteTo make matters worse, the cornerstone of the atheist religion is constantly being chipped away...
ReplyDeleteA SCIENTIFIC DISSENT FROM DARWINISM
“We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged.”
This list was posted January 2010. Scientists listed by doctoral degree or current position.
http://preview.tinyurl.com/g45kj
Morey,
ReplyDeleteTrying to shorten it to get to the crust of matters but please let me know if you wish it to be explained more thoroughly.
>>Suppose that he meets a man in jail for stealing bread to feed his family, and decides that Jesus is the way to go, while the bread thief doesn't. One gets torture, the other, heaven. Is this just..?
Yes. We ALL sin and fall short as you know. The person that tells one lie is just as guilty of sin as the axe murderer. We are all sinners. The penalty for sin death.
>>Suppose that a man commits no crimes (or sins, if you will) at all, but, again, is raised sans exposure to your gospels. He has only one option. Is this just..?
First, there is no such animal as perfect humans. Second, I really don't know what you are getting at here but I will say that I know of many people in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and China who are Christians. Just because you live in a certain area does not mean you have to follow the school of popularity. God can find His sheep no matter where they are or come from. My parents raised me as an Atheist, does that mean I am one or have to be one? Glory to God for our freedoms, huh?
>>Suppose, as you seem to, that you find out upon death what manner of god there is and what he/she/it expects from you. That sounds fair—but why, then, does life matter if you get a choice upon dying?
Exactly, what is the purpose of life then? 9 months in the womb to grow to prepare for life on earth, 90 years on earth's womb to prepare for life eternal. We all go through the lessons and we all understand in the end. We are in a sense prepared for Judgment. Are you ready? Do me a favor, just don't die before you are.
>>The upright man is treated the same as the murderer in this case. Is that just..?
Yes again. Maybe you should read one of my last posts about lying. We cannot save ourselves. If we sin we are headed for hell. We deserve it. The only Salvation we have is through Christ period. Don't want it? Fine. live with that choice for eternity. If you cannot see Christ's love by now, how will showing up to Judge you do anything to help that?
>>It's often asked what would be required to change an atheist's mind about the existence of a god. For me, it would be universal revelation. Every one on Earth receiving the same message at the same point in their life, with the rules laid out clearly.
Like through God's natural and special revelations? Check! Done. You are going to be a Christian then?
>>Even then, this god may not be worthy of worship. I would argue that any entity who condones torture is not worthy of my respect.
You don't "have to" trust Him, but you will live by that choice. You see I trust God that He has and will do the right things for us. Just because I do not have the whole story doesn't mean the trust stops like it has for you. I trust our Father to do the right thing.
>>I'm of the opinion that any just afterlife would be based on works and treatment of others, with isolation/rehabilitation and chances for growth instead of torment.
Now we are back to the rapist that hurt your child. What on earth could they possibly do as far "as works to earn" release from jail? Would you give that man "chances for growth" instead of jail? You might want to refer to the lie post again. You think you can earn your way to Heaven? I know nothing I do can take back or make right the wickedness and wretchedness that was my life before Christ. All I can do is throw myself to the mercy of the "court". At His feet in worship. My Savior. He gets my loyalty. He saved me.
---tbc
Morey cont'd,
ReplyDelete>>You seem to hold wicked- and wretchedness as defaults of the human condition, which, again, I disagree with.
You might want to refer to the lie post again.
>>I'm grateful for my parents. For my friends. For my brothers. For having been born in a place where I needn't worry about starvation or early death from preventable disease. For stars. For fireflies. For life.
Fantastic, I absolutely agree. Now, ask yourself, who are you grateful to for all those things? :7)
Stormbringer,
ReplyDelete>>Dan, Mind if I swipe that one for my article, tomorrow?
Mi casa es su casa
Danplusplusplus wrote: "If [the scientists are] wrong, then there is a Creator."
ReplyDeleteWait... how did you arrive at that?
Dan,
ReplyDeleteYou would be glad to know that I accept that some people really need to believe in a God.
Stormbringer is a classic example, by his worldview "If there's no Creator, do what you will shall be the whole of the law."
Emagine the damage a fragile mind like that would do without being afraid of God/devil?
>>>These intellectual games are tiring, because I don't know intellectually honest atheists who actually want answers.<<<
LOL please the anwser is "god did it" doesn't cut it as an anwser for everything/anything anymore.
Guess I have to re-explain in simple terms for simple minds (without the reference to Mr. Crowley this time, since that escapes you). If there is a Creator, then he makes the rules and we'd better find out what he has to say.
ReplyDeleteIf there is not a Creator, there is no moral standard and it's a free-for-all in morality.
Dan,
ReplyDeleteI don't feel a pressing need to be grateful to anyone other than the people in my life. I'm grateful for the simple fact of existence.
...and, as for the special revelation: Really? I wasn't aware that all of life points to Jesus as opposed to the eternal dancing and meditation of Shiva, or the breaking off of matter from the universal whole into things we regard as distinct entities.
As I said, I'm effectively a Buddhist/Taoist. Why? Call it a strong inner conviction. ;D
I'm glad that you respect, at least in part, my disinterest in submission to authority. There's an interesting analogue between all of this and the question of AI: If we develop artificial intelligence comparable to a human, does it share the rights that intelligence befits..? Or do we, as creators, have the right to do what we wish with it?
I'm with the first point: Existence merits rights on its own. Why? My philosophy. You don't need to agree with me, I just need to find enough like-minded people, much like any nation.
Also: Yes, there are Christians in places other than the mainstays of the religion, but they have been told, by other humans, about the whole deal. We don't find Christians in indigenous populations without prior contact to other humans, because there is no equality of revelation. You'll pardon me if I don't trust human word on everything.
Hey, Dan! The crybabies are angry with me because I'm associating with YOU! Hope I don't bring you disgrace, but I'm willing to take on the cowards. Been there before, they go crying to someone else for help.
ReplyDeleteAt any rate, I know you have more compassion than I have, and I haven't been in a church for 15 years or so. But I do know that Jesus called it as he saw it, and made a whip to drive the money changers out of the temple. So that's my excuse to having no kid gloves for intellectual and moral cowards. It's GO time!
Stormbringer,
ReplyDelete>>...and I haven't been in a church for 15 years or so.
Welcome to our world, neither have we. We home school and home church.
>>But I do know that Jesus called it as he saw it, and made a whip to drive the money changers out of the temple. So that's my excuse to having no kid gloves for intellectual and moral cowards. It's GO time!
Very true about Jesus. You certainly do not have to put kid gloves on here. They are adults and need the truth. We are, after all, at war here!
After these many years doing this I have gotten to know many of them quite well and I will admit that I am very concerned, and care, for them. We both know their fate so if you have to drive it home then, by all means, do so.
In that breath though did you read the Days of Praise for tomorrow?
ReplyDeleteKnow ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." (James 4:4)...
...Because of our common love for the Lord Jesus, we do not forsake "the assembling of ourselves together" (Hebrews 10:25). Neither do we follow the "counsel of the ungodly," or hang around "in the way of sinners," or feel at home with "the scornful" (Psalm 1:1), because there is no fellowship in "righteousness with unrighteousness" (2 Corinthians 6:14).
Dan,
ReplyDeleteI have a serious question for you and Storm if you would be so kind as to give me an answer.
I've been reading through the bible again and I had to start wondering this:
There is nothing in the bible that says that just because I am saved, my children will become saved.
I know christians whose children were killed/ died without being saved.
Or am I wrong on this. Do you think your kids are all assured of being saved?
Respectfully submitted.
Froggie
Froggie,
ReplyDelete>>Do you think your kids are all assured of being saved?
I have posted about that in the past/. I made my case in that post but I cannot imagine a Heaven without laughing and playful children.
The song at the end says it all. Chapman's daughter was killed at a very young age. She is waiting for her Dad to come home.
Incidentally, have you seen 'The Lovely Bones'?
Froggie, that's a tough one only because the Bible is not explicit.
ReplyDeleteI do not know any Christians who believe in the damnation of infants and children. There is an "age of accountability" area where children learn right and wrong, and there are sections of the Bible implying that children have gone to Heaven. Glad I was hanging around the CARM site, here's an expert (BTW, he also has a radio call-in show, I listen online): http://preview.tinyurl.com/28vdfjo
I have to tell a trimmed version of a story, people can disbelieve it all they want, but it shows (among other things) why I hate fear and the devil.
Kids across the hall in the apartment building were doing a Ouija board session. I went outside and used the authority of the believer to bind the spirits. The board quit working.
I heard them talking about it & surprised them 2x: I knew it stopped, & I shut it down.
The spirit told one girl (15 yrs?) that the baby she had aborted was in Hell. Oh, boy was I furious at that lying spirit!
Although they listened to what I had to say about Jesus, they just had to play & they got the Ouija going again. Stupid of them. Their house, their authority, so I did not interfere any more.
Satan will do anything to blind people to the truth, including lying through the Ouija board or manipulating minds.
Stormbringer said:
ReplyDelete>Atheism comes from lack of morals, not "freedom
>of thought".
You're either ignorant or intentionally lying.
>After all, some of the greatest
geniuses
>of all time have been Christians
or theists.
Possibly. Care to enumerate them?
Like Steven Hawking, Albert Einstein? Lol.
>If there's no Creator, do what you will
>shall be the whole of the law. But if
>there IS a Creator, he makes the rules and
>you'd better find out what he has to say.
Your reasoning is exactly like a psychopath afraid of the one big bully with the large stick making the rules.
>These intellectual games are tiring,
>because I don't know intellectually
>honest atheists who actually want answers.
>They'd rather fling poo like the false ancestors
>of humanity.
Speaking of excrement, you're full of it.
Dr. Maybe makes me want to become an atheist, his arguments are so persuasive. Care to offer anything above the level of "neener neener neener"?
ReplyDeleteStormbringer said...
ReplyDeleteDr. Maybe makes me want to become an atheist, his arguments are so persuasive. Care to offer anything above the level of "neener neener neener"?
Odd, that was going to be my advice to you, after you say shit like this:
Stormbringer said...
Hey, Dan! The crybabies are angry with me because I'm associating with YOU! Hope I don't bring you disgrace, but I'm willing to take on the cowards. Been there before, they go crying to someone else for help.
I've been posting here for a long time, Storm, and I'm not "crying" yet. I've maybe expressed astonishment or anger at some of the stupid things Dan's done here, but that's about it.
Now, how's about you deal with what Mabuse said about your lack of morality as shown by what you said here:
If there is not a Creator, there is no moral standard and it's a free-for-all in morality.
Atheists have better morals than that: there's consequences, empathy, and societal order.
You have a child's morality; who only does what's right out of fear of being caught.
Your "god" has a rather vacillating moral "standard", as evidence when one compares the OT with the NT, and especially the OT with how people act now.
In the OT, it was permissible for God and his "chosen people" to kill kids and pregnant women. Now, you people pretend to be "pro-life". I know all the reasons why...scarce resources, self-defense (against the adults of the enemy tribe anyway), etc.
All that shows is that morality evolves over time with differing circumstances. Atheists are at least honest enough to admit it.
You said:
So that's my excuse to having no kid gloves for intellectual and moral cowards. It's GO time!
How's about some evidence then instead of beating your chest and acting like some dumb punk kid?
As for your Ouija board story, I call bullshit.
Dan
ReplyDeleteNow you are entering into Ray's point, he said, "People don't fight against something that doesn't exist, or something they don't believe exists."
That's why you don't see groups rising up to fight against belief in werewolves. You don't see professors in universities ridiculing the existence of Santa Claus. You don't see organizations mobilizing troops to denounce bunyips, centaurs, or leprechauns.
Do you know why Dan?
Because none of those groups are trying to force their beliefs and opinions on others through law or the crippling of education like you religious people are.
I know damned well that was explained to Ray on his blog more than once.
OK, I get it. I see what scumbags you can be. Froggie, do not ever think that I will give you a response to a question again. Jesus loves you. I don't.
ReplyDeleteYou can sink really, really low, can't you? Tell me, why didn't you make fun of my brother's Down Syndrome, my father's dementia or my mother's brain cancer? Go ahead, there is nothing that you and your kind will not do.
It's typical of atheists. You are motivated by hate. And guess what? The cross of Christ is foolishness to those who are perishing, and Christians are expected to take heat simply for being his followers. It's in my nature to do good, even though you will not accept my words and you will twist my answers.
Your kind is gutless. All smug and proud because, by YOUR OWN DEFINITION, you're the smartest ones on the planet by virtue of disbelief. And you have the nerve to claim that you are persecuted! Oh, poor babies! Christians die for what they believe, all over the world. What do atheists do? Well, certainly nothing to make the world a better place, you leave the hard work for us.
Paine did not recant in his dying breath. That story of Mary Hinsdale you posted is a proven hoax and lie.
ReplyDeleteIn disproof of the lying statement of this woman, try reading the testimony of Cobbett, Vale, Ingersoll, and Conway, and the testimony of a score of actual death-bed witnesses.
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_remsburg/six_historic_americans/chapter_1.html#3
That stormbringer not only believes it, but promulgates it in the face of overwhelming evidence is not surprising, given what he has posted, also indicating a zealous, but similarly misguided belief, nay, obsession, with other well and thoroughly debunked concepts.
It is clear that you lacked the integrity and intellectual honesty to research the calumny you quoted, which clearly demonstrates that it is you who is the "intellectual and moral coward".
Do you also spout the lies of
"Lady Hope", you dope?
Paine did not recant in his dying breath. That story of Mary Hinsdale you posted is a proven hoax and lie.
ReplyDeleteIn disproof of the lying statement of this woman, try reading the testimony of Cobbett, Vale, Ingersoll, and Conway, and the testimony of a score of actual death-bed witnesses.
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_remsburg/six_historic_americans/chapter_1.html#3
That stormbringer not only believes it, but promulgates it in the face of overwhelming evidence is not surprising, given what he has posted, also indicating a zealous, but similarly misguided belief, nay, obsession, with other well and thoroughly debunked concepts.
It is clear that you lacked the integrity and intellectual honesty to research the calumny you quoted, which clearly demonstrates that it is you who is the "intellectual and moral coward".
Do you also spout the lies of
"Lady Hope", you dope?
Some of the things that makes me want to be an atheist is the civil nature of the discourses, the complete honesty of the participants, the desire to learn and process information and the well-reasoned discussions.
ReplyDeleteWell, it such things might sway me if they existed. Instead, I find microcephalic gangsters deliberately twisting words, outright lying, setting "traps" and completely opposed to learning any truth.
"Benjamin Franklin", due to your attitude and the nature of the posts you and other participants are making, I have no doubt that your references are spurious at best.
Hey, is any of that gang making fun of my mother's brain cancer yet? Hey, I'll give you more. You can laugh about my heart condition, too!
Wow, what a bunch of cowards.
Dr. Mabuse
ReplyDeleteAfter all, some of the greatest geniuses of all time have been Christians
or theists.
>>Possibly. Care to enumerate them?
Sir Issac Newton (Father of Universal Gravitation). Louis Pasteur (Father of modern microbiology). George Washington Carver (American scientist, botanist, educator, and inventor). Charles Bell (Premier Anatomist and Surgeon).Gregor Johann Mendel (Father of modern genetics). James Clerk Maxwell (Father of Electromagnetic Theory). Werner Arber (Nobel Laureate in biology). William Kirby (Father of Entomology).
>>Like Steven Hawking, Albert Einstein? Lol.
No. People like Hawking and Dawkins believe in UFO and aliens CREATED us. *snicker... Bwahahahahahha.
Reynold,
ReplyDelete>>Because none of those groups are trying to force their beliefs and opinions on others through law or the crippling of education like you religious people are.
Can you really say that with a straight face? Doubtful. The exact thing the secular people is doing is forcing their beliefs and opinions on others through law and crippling our educational system.
Remember one of my first posts labeled "In the evil home of the most hated woman in America"
Google "An American Humanist named John Dunphy, echoed Madalyn's tactics, and said in 1983:" for the tactics of the atheists.
I know full well that was explained to you on this blog more than once.
Did you know that the son of the late unlamented Madalyn Murray O'Badhairday is a Christian? He was the pawn in getting prayer removed from public schools, now he's the director of the Religious Freedom Coalition. http://xrl.in/5ckr
ReplyDeleteOK, Storm and Dan,
ReplyDeleteYou kinda missed my point. I didn't ask if your children died would they go to heaven.
I asked, if you are born again and you raise say, five kids. They grow up and two of them do not get saved.
Would it not have been better for you to kill those kids right after birth, insuring that they will go to heaven, rather than risk they grow up unsaved and go to hell?
A parent that loves their children would surely go to hell in place of their kids.
The only way you can insure your kids will get to heaven it to kill them at a very youbng age, thereby doing them the iggest favor ever....
I don't expect an anser beause that question is the downfall of your so-called faith in heaven.
Ciao!
Croak away, Frog E-lad. We know your question is a setup. Like I said, I'm not falling for anything you post again, since you are not going to ask an HONEST question.
ReplyDeleteFroggie,
ReplyDelete>>Would it not have been better for you to kill those kids right after birth, insuring that they will go to heaven, rather than risk they grow up unsaved and go to hell?
Who said they will get to heaven? Doesn't God decide that? So would Hitler be in heaven if he was killed as a child? I have no clue. Only an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent being could make such a call, don't you agree?
>>"The only way you can insure your kids will get to heaven it to kill them at a very youbng age, thereby doing them the iggest favor ever...."
Not much confidence in your wicked kids huh? Now you sound like Andrea Yates. Scary. If you feel you must kill your children then please seek help. You are beginning to worry me.
We are not to enact God's will at all. Bad things happen when you do.
stormbringer said;
ReplyDelete"Benjamin Franklin", due to your attitude and the nature of the posts you and other participants are making, I have no doubt that your references are spurious at best.
Still too intellectually dishonest to actually do any research to justify your promulgation of a discredited fabrication after my previous remonstration to you?
You have produced neither references supporting your humbug, nor anything valid to support your manufactured and completely unfounded protestation that the references cited were, in fact "spurious" when clearly, you have not done anything to make such a determination.
By continuing the matter in such a fashion, once again, you showcase and reinforce the fact that it is you who are "intellectually and morally" bankrupt.
When you're quite done with your handwaving, and unsupported insults, go do some research on your own about the hooey you regurgitate.
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry."
- Thomas Paine
2010, and Thomas Paine has still not recanted.
Posturing, Benji boy, you're posturing. Want me to jump through hoops to please YOU? Not bloody likely.
ReplyDeleteI'm asking you to think before you act. Get information before you make your final decision. Don't follow the herd and be a mindless sheep, accepting lies and hoaxes like "atheist deathbed conversions" as truth.
ReplyDeleteBen,
ReplyDelete>>Get information before you make your final decision. Don't follow the herd and be a mindless sheep, accepting lies and hoaxes ...
That is rich
Dan-
ReplyDeleteI pulled that out of "Lightning Bolt" Bob's own blog.
At least he ought to take his own words a little more seriously before condoning and practicing calumny.
Let he who is without shins cast the first shoe, and all that...
Benji, Nice misapplication of the message.
ReplyDeleteSincerely,
Lightning Bolt Bob, Cowboy of the Stormy Skies
So, Dan, you are arguing that a new born baby that dies may not go to heaven?
ReplyDeleteHow about a yes or no without all the vague circumlocutions?
Froggie,
ReplyDelete>>So, Dan, you are arguing that a new born baby that dies may not go to heaven?
Boy you are showing Stormbringer to be right. You are ignoring what I said and re-asking. :7)
>>How about a yes or no without all the vague circumlocutions?
Again, how about a link as to how I feel about it.
Dan said:
ReplyDeleteNo. People like Hawking and Dawkins believe in UFO and aliens CREATED us. *snicker... Bwahahahahahha.
Wow, you're stupid, Dan. Think! Dawkins does not believe in intelligent design in the first place, much less that aliens are the ones who did it. Why would he switch around and say that he does believe in intelligent design after opposing it for so long. Can you show where he said that he now supports intelligent design?
You can look around in the site that I link to below.
I thought I had once linked to where Dawkins spelled it out.
And Stormy thinks that it's atheists who twist words?
You obviously don't give a shit for the truth.
Now, for another example of you totally missing the ball:
I'm talking about scientists or "evolutionists". They are not trying to convert people to "atheism". Even the "secularists" aren't trying for that. If any teacher ever says that "there is no god" in schools, they'd be busted down by the ACLU, no less.
Besides, you missed the point (as usual) of my explaining why we don't fight "werewolf believers". They, unlike you people are not trying to push their way into schools and the laws.
Unlike the christian religious right, secularists believe that the schools should be neutral when it comes to mentioning god/gods.
So what's your whinging about again?
Besides, how in hell is teaching accurate science "crippling" our educational system? Why don't you back up wha you say.
Remember: I've pointed out more than once that it's your side who has yet to come up with any actual evidence. Remember all those "the year in ID" links I put up? Those clowns have nothing.
By the way, you do know that most of those scientists you listed were around before Darwin came up with his idea, right? Think that may be of some relevence?
Now as for what Stormbringer said:
It's typical of atheists. You are motivated by hate
Evidence please? You're the one who's constantly throwing insults around here...even those of us who swear at you are just reacting to your attitude.
Typical religious bigot.
Your kind is gutless. All smug and proud because, by YOUR OWN DEFINITION, you're the smartest ones on the planet by virtue of disbelief.
List please, the atheists who have said that. No word twisting please. I know what you're about to post, but let's see...
And you have the nerve to claim that you are persecuted! Oh, poor babies! Christians die for what they believe, all over the world.
They're not the only ones
You also seem to have left out a few hundred years of European and american history.
What do atheists do? Well, certainly nothing to make the world a better place, you leave the hard work for us.
Bullshit. I'm sure the "christ and the holy spook" are proud of your inspired modesty.
Beware if your an atheist near stormbringers house! This nut bag strickend by grief by the "evils" done to his family would be first in line with the burning torch and noose.
ReplyDeleteI feel very sorry for you and your families miss fortune, however don't fall into the delution that you need to prove somthing to your God by attacking poeple with different beliefs than you/it.
Mean atheists just laugh at theists, mean theists kill other people you don't believe what they do.
Atheist need a reason not to believe in the christian god?
The reason I don't believe in the christian god is the same reason I don't believe in the Islam God or th FSM god or lepricans.
Ant,
ReplyDelete>>The reason I don't believe in the christian god is the same reason I don't believe in the Islam God or th FSM god or lepricans.
O'rly? The only one on that list that has a fighting chance as a comparison is the Islamic god. The evidence just needs to be compared. The others, as you know, are mere fictional characters. There is indeed evidence as to the existence of Yahweh and Yahshua, e.g. the Qur'an even mentioned Yahshua. So you cannot compare the made up, without evidence, existence of the FSM god with God Himself. You are being completely, and utterly, intellectually dishonest.
Dan,
ReplyDelete>>There is indeed evidence as to the existence of Yahweh and Yahshua,<<
Ok I've heard of Yahweh but who is this Yahshua? another only God?
Antzilla-
ReplyDeleteYahshua is a transliteration of the original Hebrew or Aramaic name of Jesus.
Bob-
ReplyDeleteThis is part of a letter written by Robert Ingersoll to the Editor of the New York Observer. It seems as though it could have been written to you this very day.
You ought to have manhood enough to do what you falsely asserted that Thomas Paine did:
-- you ought to recant.
You ought to admit publicly that you slandered the dead; that you falsified history; that you defamed the defenseless...
There is an old saying to the effect that open confession is good for the soul. To you is presented a splendid opportunity of testing the truth of this saying.
Admit your calumny, apologize, and move on. Or continue your pattern of bearing false witness, but know that those who are not blind see the truth on this page.
I have a new post tomorrow for you losers to ridicule. And yes, you are getting personal. You attack and claim to be superior in intellect as well as morals. I have bad news for your, Sunshine, you are disrespecting your own cause. What a bunch of losers. I can respect jihadists more than I can respect atheists. And that's not saying much.
ReplyDeleteAmazing, the absence of logic. Not only are you "smarter" than the rest of us because of your cowardly inability to believe in something, but you believe everything happened by means of nothing.
42.
Stormhissyfit,
ReplyDelete" I can respect jihadists more than I can respect atheists."
.... Wow you really are the theist sterotype. Oh, Jihadist are against you too if your not of there faith.
Yeah you have great morals LOL. What can first your belief in God or Hate for those who don't believe as you?
"but you believe everything happened by means of nothing."
Wake up! you have no idea what every indiviual atheist believes.
For the record I believe every indivdual has a "CAUSE AND EFFECT" EVERYTHING!
It's you theists that have your "spontanous creation at the whim of a God" theroy.
>>cowardly inability to believe in something<<
I believe in things (1+1=2) etc.
Just not everything and anything.
>> Sunshine, you are disrespecting your own cause.<<
CAUSE??? what cause.
You have accused atheists of not wanting anwsers. What BS atheists are anwsers! Atheists have never ending Questions. You have your anwser "God of Gaps", "God did/does it for whatever reason he/she/it has"
Dan, If you don't put your foot up this bigots ass than you too are just as bad. This guy stormboy aother reason why I don't believe in your God. Why would God send this Asshole into bat for him?
Stormbringer you can believe whatever you want, Great isn't it.
Squashed Ant,
ReplyDeleteYes, I'll believe what I want. I prefer to believe in truth. You simply want to bring everyone down and "prove" that you and your ilk are automatically "smarter" than everyone else.
I have learned that atheists, who claim the higher moral ground, are lying weasels that are not to be trusted. I do not have time to show the lies in this page alone.
Your arrogance is appalling.
Instead of admitting to being mistaken about Paine's deathbed 'recanting', Bob ignores the issue, and responds only with sweeping accusations, obfuscation, and generalizations to evade answering for his errors, proceeding only by showering us with a litany of other completely unsupported and disturbing brain farts.
ReplyDeleteNo, Bob.
You can't get off the hook that easily.
You said;
"I can respect jihadists more than I can respect atheists."
"Atheism comes from lack of morals..."
"I have learned that atheists...are lying weasels that are not to be trusted."
"I do not have time to show the lies in this page alone."
"Due to your attitude and the nature of the posts you and other participants are making, I have no doubt that your references are spurious at best."
"Your arrogance is appalling."
Bob, the arrogance only seems high because you set the bar so low.
I don't maliciously stereotype tens of millions of people as you repeatedly do. I don't misrepresent or lie about clearly evidenced facts, refusing to investigate in order to make a well founded decision, as you do. I just call out the ignorance and intellectual dishonesty you evidence in each of your posts.
You said;
"I have a new post tomorrow for you losers to ridicule.
Don't bother. You have already provided more than enough fodder for anyone to ridicule you.
Admit your transgressions.
You mean that I'm called to a higher standard than this atheist rabble?
ReplyDeleteIt occurs to me that if you lot are so "bright" and above the rest of us, you would not spend so much energy in trying to bring others down and destroy their faith.
It seems Stormbringer believes in hate first and foremost. Then, perhaps, God.
ReplyDeleteI know you gladly accept any support but he's certainly not a True Christian, eh Dan?
Bob said;
ReplyDelete"You mean that I'm called to a higher standard than this atheist rabble?"
Not at all. I just call you out for not achieving the same standards as I personally adhere to, such as avoiding calumny, and admitting my mistakes.
Stop with your ignorant generalizations and smears.
Address the specifics.
Admit your transgressions.
My, it's been busy around here.
ReplyDeleteMost every thread tends to be a duplication of the others.
I think its well past time to accept this blog as comfort food for Christian apologists, and little else. Dan, I don't believe that you're making a sincere effort to convert anyone, and I think that we're all wasting our time trying to convert you.
By the way, the Qur'an does mention Jesus. Several times. He was a prophet, but his message was said to have been distorted, along with the message of Moses. Given that the Qur'an was written/assembled some six hundred years after the starts of Christianity, I don't think its reference to existing religion is really a point in favor of Jesus as God.
By the way, you might try reading the Qur'an through. It's still considered THE masterpiece of Arabic literature, and contains, among other things, a challenge to produce a work more poetic, powerful, &c—which hasn't been risen to.
(The Qur'an also uses existence as self-evident proof of God, just like you)
My personal theory about Muhammad is that he was essentially the arabic Shakespeare of his day, a poetic genius with A) delusions or B) a desire to unite the the various nomadic Arab tribes under a common belief system.
...but I digress.
I think that most of this talk is pointless. There are far better forums for discussing religion and irreligion.
Stormbringer:
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, you are getting personal.
Coming from the person who brags that: This bad dog bites back.?
What's wrong? Realize too late that you're a neutered french poodle?
You can't be serious...You brainlessly beak off with statements like:
One of the biggest problems I have with atheists is that you people are BORING! Boring because you're
predictable.
crybabies, cowards
atheist rabble
And this little gem:
Shucks, I keep fergettin' that y'all atheists win 'cuz yer all smarter'n us believers. That's all cuz yer atheists, an' believers are automatically STOO-pid.
Well, when the believers act like you, Stormbringer, then yes. You are stupid.
Go cry to someone who gives a shit.
Back to Dan:
You linked to here when you talked about how atheists "brainwash" children. Have you forgotten what happened to you in that thread?
Reynolds rapper, I do not spend time the way YOU and other atheists demand because of the way you act. I have seen few reasonable discussions, most of the time it is atheists strutting, saying they're smarter than everyone else, being rude and profane. You want respect, show respect. I have not met atheists worthy of respect in these forums.
ReplyDeleteStormbringer:
ReplyDeleteReynolds rapper, I do not spend time the way YOU and other atheists demand because of the way you act. I have seen few reasonable discussions...
Baloney. We give links, explain our points while you just act like some 13-year old kid.
...most of the time it is atheists strutting, saying they're smarter than everyone else,
Examples please.
being rude and profane. You want respect, show respect.
Maybe that's why the atheists you're whinging about act that way...they don't see you as someone to waste respect on when you're not worth it.
All I see from you is someone who brags about what a "big dog" he is, throws insults around, then after being bitch-slapped a bit, starts whinging about the attacks becoming "personal".
Idiot.
I have not met atheists worthy of respect in these forums.
Then leave. Maybe when you show that you deserve respect, you'll get some.
I doubt that starting by bragging about how tough you are, and how "crybaby" atheists are is going to garner you anything but a well-earned middle finger.
Stormbringer wrote: "You want respect, show respect."
ReplyDeleteI encourage you to practice saying these words to a mirror.
Because, Reynolds old boy, the attacks DID become personal. Lies, set-ups, trap questions — you want proof, read the thread, pinhead. I've learned to never trust atheists because they are vicious, vindictive, contemptible liars. My communications here and in my Weblog are being copied and pasted in a "We are so freaking smart because we don't believe in anything" forum right now. I'm deleting comments by atheist trolls.
ReplyDeleteThen you think I'm acting like a 13-year-old? How about dropping the double standard and stop making excuses? "You don't deserve respect", yadda yadda yadda. I've been around the Internet for a while, and I know the games you and the others play. I will admit to being surprised at the combination of childishness and viciousness, however. Keep baiting, I know you think you're the master at it.
Stormbringer wrote: "but you believe everything happened by means of nothing"
ReplyDeletePlease support this silly and incorrect claim, or retract.
Nohm, nice that you get to the point, but you're in no position to demand anything. (Reynold, see what I mean about the rudeness?)
ReplyDeleteIt's simple. Everything came from nothing, it's a foundation of the atheist faith, best known as the Big Bang. Well, there are atheist scientists that do not believe in the Big Bang or Darwinian evolution, but they are the minority.
Stormbringer: "I've learned to never trust atheists because they are vicious, vindictive, contemptible liars."
ReplyDeleteIs it possible that this is projection on your part?
Because this seems to be a better description of you, from what I've seen from you in this thread.
Scroll all the way up, and you'll see that the first poo-slinger was yourself.
Lastly, maybe the reason why you get treated badly is a result of the way that you treat others.
Stormbringer wrote: "Everything came from nothing, it's a foundation of the atheist faith, best known as the Big Bang."
ReplyDeleteAgain, I'll ask you to support this silly and incorrect assertion, or retract it.
I don't know of any atheist, especially myself, who would make such an ignorant claim.
Stormbringer wrote: "(Reynold, see what I mean about the rudeness?)"
ReplyDeleteSo, asking you to support an incorrect assertion is now somehow "rude"?
How exactly does that work?
I'm an atheist and I don't believe that 'everything came from nothing'.
ReplyDeletePerhaps I didn't get the memo.
Ant,
ReplyDelete>>Dan, If you don't put your foot up this bigots ass than you too are just as bad.
So you want me to impose what I believe on someone then? Yet you "claim" to be neutral about God and you cry when we do it in the school systems? Hypocrite much?
>>This guy stormboy aother reason why I don't believe in your God.
Utter intellectual dishonesty!! If we had the power to change/effect peoples hearts there would be no such a thing as an atheist.
>>Why would God send this Asshole into bat for him?
You don't believe in God period, and Storm, nor I, can change that or effect it. We banter back and forth here sure, but God must change your heart from within. We are to preach, not change peoples minds and hearts. What would be the purpose of Jesus then? No, it is through Christ alone that you will be saved.
The battle that you are in is between you and God. I would be worried that God did not feel you are worthy enough to be in heaven. I would ask yourself why did God send you such a strong delusion that you believed in a lie? (2 Thessalonians 2:11) Don't be the fox, in reference to the grapes as bitter and angry, but ask yourself why you are not worthy to save and be honest with yourself. Is it your bitterness and utter contempt for God that did it? Possibly. The only way to know God is to approach God with a broken and contrite heart. (Psalm 34:18) At least that is what it took for me in order for things to take hold and make sense to me.
I have said it in the past though that I would absolutely love for all of us to be in heaven having a good laugh about all of this someday but the truth is that might not happen and it breaks my heart to know that some of you will actually be in hell for all of eternity. That alone freaks me out, and I want nothing more then to see all of you get saved. So forgive our displayed frustration sometimes.
Morey,
ReplyDelete>>My personal theory about Muhammad is that he was essentially the arabic Shakespeare of his day, a poetic genius with A) delusions or B) a desire to unite the the various nomadic Arab tribes under a common belief system.
You forgot racist, murderer, and a pedophile, if we are being honest that is.
I will say this, when yelling at my kids I find myself actually mad at myself for not preparing them enough to avoid that mistake. My frustrations are at myself really, not them. So I will stick with the thoughts of Spurgeon "If sinners be damned, at least let them leap to Hell over our bodies. If they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees. Let no one go there unwarned and unprayed for."
ReplyDeleteI COMPLETELY FORGOT SOMETHING.
ReplyDelete'member that bit about morality being either based on your god or borrowed from christianity..?
There are tribes, populations across the continents, with animistic systems, or shamanistic systems, or some other belief pattern that doesn't view the world in any way even remotely similar to you.
And, oddly enough, they all have moral/ethical codes. Strange world, eh..?
In fact, there are populations in the world with no concept of a god or the supernatural in any form whatsoever (read Don't Sleep, There Are Snakes for one).
See, people of all sorts get along fine without a system based on divine rules and punishments. To suggest otherwise is simple folly.
Stormbringer said...
ReplyDeleteCroak away, Frog E-lad. We know your question is a setup. Like I said, I'm not falling for anything you post again, since you are not going to ask an HONEST question.
--------------------------------
It obvious that neither Dan or Storm will answer my question because it totally destroys their religious views. hehe
Stormbringer:
ReplyDeleteBecause, Reynolds old boy, the attacks DID become personal.
That's your own fault, given the stuff that you posted, which I've shown in my last post to you.
As I said earlier, it's stupid to whine about personal attacks when you're the one who started them!
So Storm Thurmond is bringing it here as well. Hey Mr. False Christian who accused me of spamming his crappy blog...
ReplyDeleteJust reading a few of your non-responses prove my point that there is no way you are a real Christian.
Here's an example pulled at random...
Meanwhile, I have yet to meet an intellectually honest atheist that will do anything more than hiss, spit, spew and rail.
This is a common theme of yours. You hiss, spit, spew and rail that you have yet to meet an intellectually honest atheist. You are a king at projection. And a one trick, false Christian pony.
We could all prove beyond the shadow of a doubt with all of the evidence available, but you would still refuse to abandon the blind faith of atheism and evolutionism.
Another recurring theme of yours. You go on about how you could prove something beyond a shadow of a doubt with all the evidence available, but you never actually present anything other than your assertion that you could.
If you had intelligence and courage, you could see the moral bankruptcy of atheism.
You talk about courage Mr. Run away with your vestigial tail between your legs...
I really do pity you though. You have no one and nothing in your life but your false hopes and lots of bitterness. You should find yourself a woman (or man) that can put up with you.
Morey,
ReplyDelete>>There are tribes, populations across the continents, with animistic systems, or shamanistic systems, or some other belief pattern that doesn't view the world in any way even remotely similar to you. And, oddly enough, they all have moral/ethical codes. Strange world, eh..?...See, people of all sorts get along fine without a system based on divine rules and punishments. To suggest otherwise is simple folly.
Yes, God gave them, and us, a conscience (with Knowledge of right and wrong) Is that so strange to you? I said this in the past but for your benefit I will repeat:
Your feeling exist because God gave you a conscience that tells you that it is wrong. Where we go wrong is when we deny that little voice deep inside that says what we are doing is wrong.
It's a proven fact that with ALL people, across all genders and races, the consequences / telltales of when a person lies, are that;
They experience sweaty palms; They experience induced swallowing; Their heart rate increases; Their faces turn red; They avoid eye contact; They speak more quickly, etc. etc. This is with everyone human being on the planet no matter where they grew up or was raised. Except, of course, for sociopaths and those who have perfected evil deception. So these are physical reactions (that cross all humanity), that occur when people lie, keeping in mind that none of them are at all based upon comfort, self esteem, or integrity, why is that?
Here's a hint, lying is a spiritual event. It's not merely a physical action. Lying is an offense against God. When His creations lie, He is ashamed of His creation and simply separates Himself. Therefore He has constructed us with built in sensors that perhaps we just might someday, in our blind little, self seeking minds, finally get the big picture.
All people..?
ReplyDeleteAre you aware of sociopaths and pathological liars? There are many people for whom lying doesn't produce such reactions. I dated one, for goodness' sake.
Dan
ReplyDeleteHere's a hint, lying is a spiritual event. It's not merely a physical action. Lying is an offense against God. When His creations lie, He is ashamed of His creation and simply separates Himself.
Then how do you explain it when he either arranges it, or does it himself?
1 Kings 22:23
2 Chronicles 18:22
2 Thessalonians 2:11
Same thing goes for any other sin that "god" forbids us to do but that which he freely does himself. (ie. killing, etc)
Reynold,
ReplyDelete>>Then how do you explain it when he either arranges it, or does it himself?
"Why would God want to deceive people and cause them to believe a lie? (2 Thessalonians 2:11) The "cause" which would activate such an extreme decision on God's part must be very serious. The preceding verse states it plainly. It is "because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved" (2 Thessalonians 2:10). Because they "resist the truth" (2 Timothy 3:8), they will "believe the lie!" The specific context refers to those who elect to follow the coming "man of sin," but the principle is timeless. It tells us that God's attitude toward men is determined by their love of the truth, rather than by their knowledge of the truth. When people love God's truth, there is no limit to the amount of truth and blessing they may receive from God.
But when people begin to exhibit a disdain for God's truth, there may soon come a time in their lives when they find it impossible even to comprehend the all-important truth of God's saving gospel (creation, salvation, and reconciliation through Christ).
Because they refused the love of His truth when it would have been easy to believe, a blindness gradually engulfs their minds until they love the deceptive philosophies of the world, and they never escape the strong delusion which God has allowed to engulf them. Henceforth, though they are "ever learning," they are "never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (2 Timothy 3:7). How important it is, as early in life as possible, to receive from God His proffered gift of the love of His truth!" HMM
Ignoring the fact that there are other instances that your god lied which you never addressed; so what if the circumstances were "extreme"?
ReplyDeleteDon't you advocates of "absolute morality" go against the kind of reasoning? Remember, you were the one who was against lying even to the Nazis to protect the Jews that you'd be hiding.
Why excuse your god lying because the circumstances were "extreme"?
Something neither you nor the bible writers didn't think of is the fact that if those people had truly rejected the "truth" of god, then why would it be necessary to send them a "lie" or "delusion" in the first place?
Oh yeah, Dan. I'm still waiting for your evidence that the "false claims" on that site I gave earlier are actually "false".
ReplyDeleteReynold,
ReplyDelete>>Something neither you nor the bible writers didn't think of is the fact that if those people had truly rejected the "truth" of god, then why would it be necessary to send them a "lie" or "delusion" in the first place?
Pretty powerful huh? Not only is the strong delusion apparent to the rest of us that are indeed saved, but you don't even believe that it happened to you. Prove the Bible wrong and become a Christian and get to Heaven and we can all have cold drinks in Heaven someday.
Dan, I'll ask again:
ReplyDeleteDan wrote: "If [the scientists are] wrong, then there is a Creator."
Wait... how did you arrive at that?
Nohm,
ReplyDelete"If [the scientists are] wrong, then there is a Creator."
>>Wait... how did you arrive at that?
Based on the assumption that there are only two theories out there that matter. Natural Selection/abiogenesis (yes, they go hand in hand) and Biblical Creationism. Both falsifiable, both falsify each other.
Dan wrote: "Based on the assumption that there are only two theories out there that matter."
ReplyDeleteWell, that's pretty silly, isn't it?
It's called a false dichotomy.
"Natural Selection/abiogenesis (yes, they go hand in hand) "
Uh, no, they don't. A theist who accepts evolution would disagree that they go hand in hand.
And what... they go hand in hand simply because you say so?
"and Biblical Creationism."
What about Quranic creationism? Or Hindu creationism? Or Scientology Creationism? Or the Raelians?
Seems that you missed a few other options.
"Both falsifiable,"
What is the evidence that would falsify Biblical Creationism for you?
"both falsify each other."
Depends on your definition of Biblical Creationism.
Do you have a detailed definition of that term?
Nohm,
ReplyDelete>>Depends on your definition of Biblical Creationism. Do you have a detailed definition of that term?
Biblical Creationism is the term I use that the Bible describes our God as the Creator.
I agree with AiG who said it like this:
Biblical creation is supernatural. In plain language it was a miracle. Creation was by direct acts of the Creator as opposed to some naturalistic process. “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). Creation took place in the beginning and was finished and complete. Creation was not spread out over a major portion of the supposed evolutionary vast time history of the universe. Creation was by the word of the Creator. The Creator spoke things into existence. In Genesis 1, we read of a series of “And God said” statements. Also we read in Psalm 33:6 & 9, “By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.”
Biblical creation is also creation ex nihilo. First there was nothing and then there was something. No time was involved. The Creator did not need matter or energy or anything else. He is first. All else is second. In fact, the basic meaning of the word create implies that there was nothing and then there was something. Some other religions have concepts of creation and a creator, but in all other cases the creator is inferior to the biblical Creator. Other creators had to use material that already existed and they simply rearranged it.
Dan,
ReplyDeleteBy the original Hebrew, Genesis 1:1 reads more like "while there was the beginning," which is somewhat grammatically confusing. You'll remember that the next verse speaks of the breath of God sweeping over the waters. Again, by the original Hebrew, the waters were already there. In the beginning, there were the waters, formless and without order.
It can also be helpful to make a diagram of the cosmology described in the rest of Genesis 1.
Hint: It's completely wrong. There is no dome above a flat earth over which there are waters. Try drawing it. It's an interesting exercise.
I should be more clear. The Genesis account states, by the Hebrew, that first were the waters and God.
ReplyDeleteIn other words: the Torah does not state that there was a creation ex nihilio. The heavens and the earth were created out of the formless waters that were already there.
As a side note, you haven't addressed the issue of other creation myths. Many of them begin with waters first, Or from one non-divine source, and everthing else later, whether that be by cosmic egg or rising turtle or parting of the waters. Comparative mythology is an interesting field.
Morey,
ReplyDelete>>By the original Hebrew, Genesis 1:1 reads more like "while there was the beginning," which is somewhat grammatically confusing.
בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ.
Bereshit bara elohim et hashamayim ve'et haaretz.
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
>> Again, by the original Hebrew, the waters were already there. In the beginning, there were the waters, formless and without order.
וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, יְהִי רָקִיעַ בְּתוֹךְ הַמָּיִם, וִיהִי מַבְדִּיל, בֵּין מַיִם לָמָיִם.
And God said: 'Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.'
>>Hint: It's completely wrong. There is no dome above a flat earth over which there are waters. Try drawing it. It's an interesting exercise.
Was this "dome", trying to be described back then, now called an atmosphere?
I don't see a problem, but my presuppositions trust the Bible, does yours?
Look it up at the Blue letter Bible website.
ReplyDeleteGenesis 1:2
And the earth 776 was 1961 without form 8414, and void 922; and darkness 2822 [was] upon the face 6440 of the deep 8415. And the Spirit 7307 of God 430 moved 7363 upon 5921 the face 6440 of the waters 4325.
Morey,
ReplyDeleteLook at the word "face"
Strong's H6440
Face also could mean:
f) as adv of loc/temp
1) before and behind, toward, in front of, forward, formerly, from beforetime, before
g) with prep
1) in front of, before, to the front of, in the presence of, in the face of, at the face or front of, from the presence of, from before, from before the face of
So the face of the water is actually "before water"
Clearer?
"So the face of the water is actually 'before water'"
ReplyDeleteStill not working I'm afraid. I'm not alone in finding the context favoring the "pre-existing or co-existing water" idea to be the correct one, but that would bore everyone else here, now, wouldn't it..? ;D
As for the dome/finrmament
"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so."
Go ahead and call the space between "atmosphere." It still says that there are waters above the sky, which was how rain was explained back in the day—and the stars and the lesser and greater lights were fixed in this dome, also under the waters.
...and it is because of things like that that my presuppositions do not, in fact, trust the bible.
...and it's also interesting to note that light and dark existed before the sun, by Genesis. Another reason I don't trust it as a source.
ReplyDelete...and the waters existed before the separation of night into day in the first place, without mention [before is still dubious, to my mind] of what/when the waters arrived.
Considering how explicit Genesis is about mentioning as much as it could about the Earth and things upon/under it, looking at a weak grammar link to suggest that failure to mention creation of the water was merely an oversight seems sketchy.
I'm still forced to conclude that the waters and your God co-existed, or had always been. Again, lack of creation ex nihilo.
That was a poorly-worded last sentence.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I have another question: You've said several times now that you presuppose the bible to be true. Why..? It would seem to me to be difficult to critically approach a text if you've already decided that it's true/inerrant.
Perhaps "presupposition" isn't quite the right word?
Morey,
ReplyDeleteAbout the waters, really does that hair splitting really get in the way of the message of Salvation?
While the Bible is actually scientifically accurate it is not a scientific reference book. It is an introduction to our Creator.
>>You've said several times now that you presuppose the bible to be true. Why..? It would seem to me to be difficult to critically approach a text if you've already decided that it's true/inerrant.
Good point.
>>Perhaps "presupposition" isn't quite the right word?
You might be right...almost, I haven't given that much thought. I can certainly say that I now presuppose the Bible because of my Faith in Christ and my worldview has radically changed since I was born again.
I did examine the evidence, as an Atheist, and it radically changed my world when I read it cover to cover for the first time. At that moment (age 23) I was introduced to Jesus Christ the man and God and I became a believer. I didn't become a Christian until a few years ago though. Now I presuppose the Bible as the Word of God and ALL of the claims as truth. I trust God to fill in the blanks because after reading it a half a dozen times now I still do not "get" some of it.
Dan +†+ said...
ReplyDeleteReynold,
>>Something neither you nor the bible writers didn't think of is the fact that if those people had truly rejected the "truth" of god, then why would it be necessary to send them a "lie" or "delusion" in the first place?
Pretty powerful huh? Not only is the strong delusion apparent to the rest of us that are indeed saved, but you don't even believe that it happened to you. Prove the Bible wrong and become a Christian...
Dan, you're not thinking here: If I were to prove the bible wrong (in respect to the "delusion" or in any other respect which you dismiss anyway) than that would be evidence that christianity is wrong! Why would I convert after proving the bible is wrong?????
Good grief.
...and get to Heaven and we can all have cold drinks in Heaven someday.
Nice sentiment, but as usual, you've totally NOT answered my question: if those people had truly rejected the "truth" of god, then why would it be necessary to send them a "lie" or "delusion" in the first place?
Reynold,
ReplyDelete>>Dan, you're not thinking here: If I were to prove the bible wrong (in respect to the "delusion" or in any other respect which you dismiss anyway) than that would be evidence that christianity is wrong! Why would I convert after proving the bible is wrong?????
Listen you ignorant slut,[:7)] its called irony. You will prove the Bible right by not ever becoming a Christian. If you ever became a truly converted Christian then the Bible would be wrong. The fact there are hard driven and dedicated atheists shows evidence for the validity to the Bible and the claims in it. Thank you Atheists for proving God right.
>>if those people had truly rejected the "truth" of god, then why would it be necessary to send them a "lie" or "delusion" in the first place?
I believe to seal the fate of the defiant and evil ones. I believe you chose to be an enemy of God and God in a sense said 'so be it,' I hope I am wrong and missed something though.
Otherwise my grief will not be good at all.
Dan said,
ReplyDelete"and my worldview has radically changed since I was born again."
So did you think Gays should be killed before you where born again? or is killed gays a Christian moral, value you picked up?
Also,
ReplyDeleteI'm finding it very hard to find a ID timeline of history.
eg. How long was the world under water from flood?
How many people and where were they living pre-flood?
What positions were the contenants before and after flood?
How long was it between mans creation and fall of man (fallen creation)?
How long between fallen creation and flood?
When was the Egypt cilivisation started?
Were are all the fossils (made of rock not salt) of animals we still have today?
Dan
ReplyDeleteThe fact there are hard driven and dedicated atheists shows evidence for the validity to the Bible and the claims in it. Thank you Atheists for proving God right.
Couldn't the same thing be said for those who follow the Koran about those who don't believe that "holy book"?
I post a site that shows that archeology doesn't always agree with the bible, you dismiss it out of hand without discussing any of the "flaws" in it (you instead make a post about evolution instead)...it seems to me that anything that goes against your bible beliefs will be dismissed out of hand, no matter what.
So your crowing about (to paraphrase how you're acting): "there are atheists, therefore the bible is right" means nothing to me.
Forgot:
ReplyDelete>>if those people had truly rejected the "truth" of god, then why would it be necessary to send them a "lie" or "delusion" in the first place?
I believe to seal the fate of the defiant and evil ones. I believe you chose to be an enemy of God and God in a sense said 'so be it,' I hope I am wrong and missed something though.
Of course, you're wrong. If they had already rejected "god", their fate is already sealed. Sending a "delusion" is redundant.
I'm not sure that I follow the "atheism proves christianity" bit. I suppose that if arguing against something makes it true, then your blog proves atheism to be true. From that, I am forced to conclude that everything is true, which makes me a Discordian.
ReplyDelete(note: I don't actually believe that)
Anyway, Dan, thank you. The hair-splitting remark finally brought this long thread back full circle.
Hairsplitting is the difference between us. Not intelligence or ignorance. It's the point at which a person stops asking questions. That's different for everyone, but, as a general rule, deconverts like myself are stubborn. We never stop questioning things that we do not understand, and that makes us who we are.
Suppose a child asks you what two times two is. There are literally an infinite number of answers, but only one mathematically accurate one. Any one of those answers could be given, with varying degrees of seeming accuracy. If told that the answer is 22, a child could ask "Why?" and be told that it is simply two put together twice. The child could choose either to be satisfied with the answer or ask another question.
The same could go with the correct answer, 4, but there comes a point at which questions become ridiculous. Feel free to use that as a response to atheism.
But the difference between us is fairly clear to me: You've arrived at an answer, and, at a certain point, you stopped asking questions about it. That in itself doesn't make it false, mind you, but we go steps further. We don't accept an answer that we don't understand, so we continue to ask questions.
That, in a nutshell, is science. Science is continually asking questions, and requires a great deal of answers before it will cautiously declare something to be reasonably, assumably true. When it comes to evolution, there are answers to everything you ask, and questions that still haven't been answered—but you stop asking questions after the first or second. We don't.
It's that continual asking of questions that correlate acceptance of evolution with atheism. Both demand answers, and aren't content to let those answers pass merely the first or second, or even twentieth round without further questions.
We can indeed believe that something is true, but it takes time.
However, we are always open to the possibility that something may be true—we do not and cannot start by assuming it is false.
...but when something continually fails to provide answers, we feel fairly comfortable as putting it in the "likely false" category.
...and that, in a very large nutshell, is what separates us.
Ant,
ReplyDelete>>So did you think Gays should be killed before you where born again?
I certainly don't think gays should be killed at all. I care and love gays, I know many, I am in the design industry after all. I also live in a gay community. Shame on you for projecting your preferences on others. Own up to what you believe.
Gays are sinner just like you and me. If you would read my past posts you would never have made that comment. Although, I understand it was a 'closet feeling' on your part. Stop projecting.
Morey,
ReplyDelete>> From that, I am forced to conclude that everything is true, which makes me a Discordian.
With today's economic news that might be a good idea.
>>That's different for everyone, but, as a general rule, deconverts like myself are stubborn. We never stop questioning things that we do not understand, and that makes us who we are.
That is good because I hope you understand you were never a convert in the first place. There is no such thing as an ex-Christian because Christians don't fall away. I am sure you knew that though. I have no idea who you are trying to convince because it certainly is not us.
>>You've arrived at an answer, and, at a certain point, you stopped asking questions about it.
Are you confusing us with evolutionists? Psst, the paradigm today is evolution.
>>We don't accept an answer that we don't understand, so we continue to ask questions.
Good welcome to the fray! An every growing desire towards truth is a desire towards God.
>>However, we are always open to the possibility that something may be true—we do not and cannot start by assuming it is false.
Then you cannot be, by definition, an Atheist. Maybe an agnostic would fit you better as more accurate.
>>...but when something continually fails to provide answers, we feel fairly comfortable as putting it in the "likely false" category.
Great, that is evolution and atheism.
>>...and that, in a very large nutshell, is what separates us.
Reality.
No True Scotsman.
ReplyDeleteI don't know what we can ever do to convince you that some of us were, in fact genuine christians at some point. Not by your definition, perhaps, but it was very, very real to us.
...and I don't know how I can convince you that "atheist" is a perfectly suitable definition for what I am. I adhere to no theistic system. I don't claim perfect knowledge. Therefore I'm an atheist-agnostic.
But an atheist nonetheless.
And, some now-long past day, a christian.
Morey,
ReplyDelete>> Not by your definition, perhaps, but it was very, very real to us.
Not my definition but the authority where it lies. That is with Christ.
Again it goes back to the beginning, the authority of who is or who is not a Christian, and that authority is Christ Himself. As I pointed out , “the Bible says to evaluate everything to see if it is of God by its fruit, good tree = good fruit; a bad tree can never bear good fruit.” (Luke 6:43, Matthew 7:19)
God lets people know who is and who is not a Christian, in this world. It will be obvious by their fruits.
Allow me to address the "no true Scotsman" claim again, that many atheists droningly follow, that some atheist dude made up.
Look at the definition of 'nationality': "people having common origins or traditions and often comprising a nation. The status of belonging to a particular nation by birth or naturalization"
Now that's a true Scotsman, true Japanese person or true Chinese person or born again Christian. I stand by my claims. A true Christian cannot turn away from God. Here is why. 2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
In summation, I am sure Ted Haggard thought he was a Christian when he was doing lines off a male hookers butt also but we ALL know better. He was a false convert. So were you and so was I for those many years. You would not be here arguing against it if you indeed were a Christian. That is forever and eternal and cannot be removed by anyone or anything.
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ReplyDeleteStormbringer wrote: I've learned to never trust atheists because they are vicious, vindictive, contemptible liars.
ReplyDeleteHow ironic, because I have learned by experience to never trust religionists because they are vicious, vindictive, contemptible liars. In fact, Stormbringer seems that way to me.
Jesus loves you. I don't.
So much for being a good christian.
It's typical of atheists. You are motivated by hate.
You're projecting.
Christians die for what they believe, all over the world. What do atheists do?
We try to avoid stupid things like getting ourselves killed. Since we don't believe in an afterlife, life-or-death situations carries a more dire threat to us. Theists believe they will live on in heaven, but that's their delusion, and their personal choice, something I should not interfere with.
That (some) christians are prepared to die for their beliefs is only evidence of one thing: that they are willing to die for their beliefs. Not that their beliefs are more correct than any other.
Well, I think proof of atheism is that atheists spend their finite time arguing on the internat and angrily sneering at believers. Makes sense.
ReplyDeleteDan,
ReplyDeleteIs it fair to say that it's impossible to tell a "True Christian" from a "false convert," by your definition..? Certainly you can point to behaviors or statements that makes someone not "True," but is it possible to point to certain traits that prove the opposite? I ask merely for curiosity's sake.
Mr. Spindrift,
I don't sneer. It makes my face hurt. And I'm certainly not angry at anyone here. Except the word "of." Can't stand it.
Morey,
ReplyDelete>>Is it fair to say that it's impossible to tell a "True Christian" from a "false convert," by your definition..? Certainly you can point to behaviors or statements that makes someone not "True," but is it possible to point to certain traits that prove the opposite? I ask merely for curiosity's sake.
You can find it on the side bar but here is a link to the post called Fallen Away?
Look for the "What fruit will grow in a True Christians life:" and keep reading.
Dan,
ReplyDeleteThat helps somewhat, but I'm led to believe that those signs are not something you can inerrantly find in another person. It seems rather impossible to, with certainty, know another person's heart, and so I'd still hold that you can not with honesty pass judgment on another person's Christianity—at least not in regard to legitimacy or capital-T Truth.
With a slight change of wording, all but #5 can and do apply to many de-(false, in your mind)converts, before and after the fact.
Of course, that almost certainly runs counter to your definitions in the first place. So having said that is mildly pointless.
Anyway. Goodliness isn't always Godliness. There I'll end it on an aphorism.
Morey,
ReplyDelete>>It seems rather impossible to, with certainty, know another person's heart, and so I'd still hold that you can not with honesty pass judgment on another person's Christianity—at least not in regard to legitimacy or capital-T Truth.
God indeed gave us tools that allow us to care and watch out for each other. I agree we certainly are not to judge people's motives or heart. Although, I also thought that you should know that our hearts are deceitfully wicked so that is not where we look for goodness. We are all born evil, that is for certain.
So God gives us the tools to judge someones goodness or not. I am sure that you would want to know if someone is good and blessed before you let your kids play over at their house. Anyway God said that a bad tree cannot, and will not, bear good fruit. Test it for yourself. You don't even have to test it on others. Look at your own path. Is it good fruit? Are the Masses of pedophilia priests and crusades in the RCC (Roman Catholic Church) good fruit from a good tree?
It is a shame that most of these professing preachers tell people that Christianity will make their trip easier or better. We must put Jesus on like we would put a parachute on. It makes sense when you look at it like that. The verses about being of this world and such (Colossians 2:8, Romans 12:2) We must leap from this world. I hope you don't avoid Christianity because of what some dude did or said.
Seek Him and you get closer to God
and truth.
Contrary to popular opinion, Goodliness is always Godliness. Find good and you will find God. Seek truth and you are seeking God.
Dan,
ReplyDeleteSo you would say, rather that without God there is no basis for morality, without God there would be no morality, period. So all secular or differently religious ethical systems that lead to goodness are ultimately God's doing.
...and is it fair to say that you believe it is simply impossible to be good without God, regardless of whether or not a person believes in the existence of a god?
Would it follow that the ultimate human good, in your mind, is acceptance of Jesus as god/savior, as that is what, all else excepted, "saves" you? You've written that religions that focus on works are "false," and that grace is the sole reason for salvation.
So it ultimately comes down to whether or not a person believes in Jesus as savior or not, other goodness (Godliness, to you) excepted.
...if I understand you correctly. I'm trying to figure out exactly what it is you believe so I don't ask questions of you that aren't germane to your beliefs.
Oh, and I'm not avoiding Christianity because of any particular person or group's actions/words. I'm avoiding it because theism makes close to zero sense to me and because theistic religions in general strike me as profoundly unfair should they happen to be true.
ReplyDeleteI've already brought up hell here, so I shan't revisit that.
...but I'll keep on asking questions, because you clearly believe that this is all not only fair, but just and merciful. Or unfair, but not to us. We're the recipients of your God's unfairness to himself.
...which I'm trying to make sense of.
Morey,
ReplyDeleteYou are asking too important of questions and I appreciate your candor. I will make it a new post, I hope you don't mind. I love these types of questions anyway because it leads to a better conversation. Thanks for that.
Glad to oblige. :D
ReplyDeleteThere's little understanding to be found without questioning.